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in reply to: Caught with my pants down… #32071
JIM
Great story. You certainly have a knack for writing and story telling. I always look forward to ,and enjoy. your post.
I do have to ask why you pack your bow and arrows rather than caring them in your hand at the ready. Is this because of a law or through choice because of the long trek to the hunting area?
Thanks again for the great story.:D
in reply to: A Pleasant Surprise In Customer Service #24578Cladinator wrote: I hope this doesn’t violate any rules pertaining to sponsors or anything. I don’t think it does.
A couple days ago I was practicing in my backyard. I have two targets that I am currently using: a hurricane bag target for use with field points and a broadhead target that can take both broadheads and field points. I have six Beman Bowhunters in 500 spine. I have 145 grains up front. Three of the arrows have field points and the other three have Steel Force PhatHead Titanium 2-Blade Single Bevel Screw-Ins.
I practice with all six comparing the flight and feel (they feel and shoot exactly the same to me).
THE FOLKS OT STEEL FORCE
Upon retrieving my arrows affixed with broadheads I noticed that one of the heads had lost the blade. It seems the assembly came apart and the blade was now lodged somewhere in the broadhead target.
After several bouts of profanity I accepted this as something that could happen from time to time.
I went to the Steel Force website and ordered a “Nic-wrench” so that I could make sure the other assemblies were tight and so that I could hopefully fix another blade to an assembly that was hopefully not defective.
I contacted them and told them what had happened and if I could purchase a replacement blade to put back in the broadhead assembly.
What I got was a prompt and very welcomed email:
“Nick,
No this is not supposed to happen. thanks for the heads up we will check on the way they are being assembled sorry for this inconvenience.
I have your address from the Pay Pal order I received for the wrench, so we will send you a new complete head along with the wrench at no charge, I will refund your pay Pal order in the amount of 5.49.
Thank you for shooting Steel Force!!
Sincerely,
Cathy Giannetti
Steel Force Broadheads”
I am blown away by how courteous and generous she was. I was not expecting them to do this. Heck, I even thought it perfectly reasonable that I should pay for the replacement.
This is a trend that I’m starting to see more and more as I get more involved in the archery (especially traditional archery) community.
I apologize in advance if there were any policies violated here.
As someone who firmly believes in the power of the consumer I thought it was important to inform others.
It’s the little things like this that make someone a longtime and devoted customer.
CATHY AND NICK AT “STEEL FORCE”/ “VISION QUEST” ARE HARD WORKING AND HONEST PEOPLE. THEY LIKE MANY OTHER “MA AND PA” BUSINESS IN THE ARCHERY WORLD STAND BY THEIR PRODUCTS AND TRY TO GIVE GOOD SERVICE.
I HAVE TAKEN THE LIBERTY TO SEND THEM A COPY OF THE QUOTED POST. LIKE ALL BUSINESS PEOPLE THEY LIKE TO HEAR THAT THEIR EFFORTS ARE APPRECIATED.:D
I AM SURE Cladinator THANKED THEM PERSONALLY BUT WANTED TO SHOW THEM HE MADE A CONCERTED EFFORT TO LET OTHERS KNOW :D:D
in reply to: Footings, Spine, and Feathers Oh My!? #20345wojo14 wrote: Joe,
First off, Thanks for your info, help and products!
I love experimenting with arrows. It is actually a sickness!
Wow, just some tape? I thought it was some kind of special top secret NASA stuff! 😆
I guess I have to get more footings!
I will order today!:D
WOJO 14
LOL…. so there is no confusion the striping tape I am referring to is a self stick vinyl tape used for striping autos, etc.. It can be bought at any auto store in multiple colors and widths. Use 1/16 to 3/16 wide.
in reply to: Footings, Spine, and Feathers Oh My!? #19943‘[list=]’.str_replace(‘
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wojo14 wrote: Ok, I know adding weight to the front of the shaft affects the spine of the arrow, what about footings?
Lets say I am shooting a 55/75 arrow at 29″ with 350 out front. (225 head and a 125 insert)
I want to foot some arrows for stumping and hunting(I did not foot my target arrows).
Would a 225 head, 100 g insert and a 25g aluminum footing get me the same spine/EFOC as my target set up? With the same exact arrow.
Second? This one is for Joe Furlong and you guys that shoot A&A feathers.
Can I cut my own? Will they work the same? I took a 4″ shield cut and trimmed it down to 2.5″ It is pretty much the same looking feather.
Also, can I purchase turbulator tape separately?
I am only asking about the feathers, because until Joe gets more colors, I wanted to cut my own.
WOJO 14
I am glad you are experimenting with footings and feathers. Both go hand in hand when developing a FOC arrow
FOOTINGS I will give you a answer based on experience not a verified study. I do not believe that a external footing less than 3″ changes the spine to the stiffer side. Addition of 25 grains may weaken the spine if you are at a tipping point do to tip ,insert and adaptor weight.
Your target arrows should have the same exact components in weight as stumping arrows and finally the hunting arrow. In other words if your hunting arrow has a footing so should your practice arrow……develop the ideal arrow for your bow and stick with it. Some say arrows with footings will not pull out of foam targets easily. Some what true but should not be the reason for not using them. The benefits out weigh any minor inconvenience.
FEATHERS By all means cut your own.It is not rocket science.Just uses a good sharp scissors.Try to keep the rear cut perpendicular to the quill and the overall profile at 1/2 inch or less.
As stated above a true FOC arrow can not be attained with out experimenting with the weight on the rear of the arrow. Things to look at on the rear are feathers,wraps,and nock collars.
I use Carbon express arrows .the model I use comes with a knock collar. By removing the collar I shed 5 grains from the rear which in essence would be the equivalent of adding approximate 20 to 30 grains up front.
I offered A & A feathers on our site as I am trying to promote FOC. I think it is a important concept for archery. A & A feathers are part of the equation for UFOC. Like many of the products we offer such as adaptors and footings are offered to enable archers to build the best hunting arrow possible.:D
Turbulator tape that we use is automobile striping tape..You can also cut strips from cap wraps. The main purpose is to disrupt the air flow. 😀 HAVE FUN :D:D
in reply to: Update on Larry Fischer vs The Bastard #16669Larry fought the long battle to survive the cancer which he called the “Bastard”. His tenacity and desire to fight the” Bastard”, even under diminishing odds for survival , is a lesson from which we all can learn.
Cancer affects not just the individual. but the spouse as caregiver .Belinda fought the battle right along side Larry……Prayers to you Belinda and Larry’s family.
He will be missed!
in reply to: Elk Hunt – Bad Penetration! #14809Nate Bailey wrote: [quote=Doc Nock][quote=manystalksfewkills]I believe it is likely I hit higher than I thought.
Anyone think I should be shooting more bow? I got to admit the compound buddy I was hunting with planted that seed after he saw the arrow. His reaction was to say the a traditional bow just can’t produce enough kinetic energy to get adequate penetration. I have to admit I wasn’t in the mood to quote Ashby studies and argue momentum over kinetic in the tent that night while I dined on the backstraps of his bull…
Let’s set the stage for my comments. I don’t hunt huge crittes like elk..never did with a bow. Ok, done
Now, as to the question about more bow…if you didn’t hit the boiler room, more bow won’t help! I lived in MT and one guy put TWO (count em) 338 slugs (Barnes controlled expansion) into an bull elk heart and it still plowed 300 yards down into doghair canyon of misery.
Proper placement and “BIG ENOUGH” doesn’t equal the tenancity of wild things!
Elk have been said to be “babies” if hit properly. Something went awry. Period. You spent 2 days looking. You did what ethics would dictate and nothing in nature goes to waste… so chin up and carry on.
Quit obsessing (my $.02) over equipment and face that a longer shot that resulted in time to react, caused a higher hit than desirable, and it didn’t mortally wound in a recoverable distance.
Equipment doesn’t appear to be the culprit. Don’t obsess or beat yourself to death, but dont’ focus on the wrong issue at hand.
80# bow draw in the wrong spot is a same outcome… don’t you think?
You paid a price. You learned. Now use the learning and take deep breaths… work on shot placement. Give yourself some leeway and never forget, but forgive the error!
There is a reason the elk was alerted. It was stated his attention was concentrated on the partner calling. The elk was broad side . The elk ducked possibly resulting in a poor shot.
Others may have concluded that it was not equipment . Their conclusions have not convinced me there for I am still
Cheers! From one old fart to someone else, fwiw! sound advice
NATE I guess you are saying it was not equipment.:?:
There is a reason the elk was alerted. It was stated his attention was concentrated on the partner calling. The elk was broad side . The elk ducked possibly resulting in a poor shot.
Others may have concluded that it was not equipment . Their conclusions have not convinced me therefor I am still obsessing.LOL:D:D
Not trying to open old wounds ( no pun intended )just thinking the equipment was available and it could be checked. That way we don’t have to assume. I am sure the obvious was already eliminated:lol:
wojo14 wrote: One more ?
When fletching smaller feathers, helical? Straight?
Dont you need a bit of a helical for a single bevel BH?
Dr Ashby one of the ” A ” in A & A feathers recommends straight fletch.
The quill on the feather will give enough helical to make the arrow spin. That is why it is still important to match feather swith the bevel if shooting single bevel broadheads.
I always used a helical clamp in my fletcher before switching. I was surprised how much easier it is to get the feather to lay flat on the arrow with straight fletch thus getting a better bond between feather and arrow.
wojo14 wrote:
So guys, correct me if I am wrong, but if I get an arrow tuned good with 25-30% efoc and small feathers, my trajectory will be flatter out to 20 yards as well?
Generally speaking a UFOC arrow will drop less over a given yardage say 20 yds than a arrow of the the same total weight with significant less UFOC.:!:
Foc is not a panacea to all arrow problems. FOC is just another tool in the box to help develop the most lethal arrow possible. High FOC will improve penetration in ‘soft tissue’ but does very little in bone. It is more important to have a arrow weight above the 650 grain threshold for breeching bone.The ideal arrow to strive for is one above total eight of 650 + grains with 30 % FOO,
Once you have developed a high FOC arrow and seen the difference in how they fly and preform in windy conditions you will never want any thing else.:D
in reply to: Elk Hunt – Bad Penetration! #14526manystalksfewkills
Back at you! As you, I am still thinking about the circumstances of your elk encounter. As you described the setting unless the elk saw the arrow coming the only reason for him to duck was he heard the arrow. (I should stipulate not the only reason as critters have sense about things not being normal but we could assume for this scenario he heard the arrow). You might look at bow noise at release or arrow noise in flight.
WOJO 14
wojo14 wrote: Joe/Mike, Thanks for info!
Joe, I just placed an order at the beginning of the week. Were my A&A feathers back ordered? You plan on getting new colors?
I like bright orange!
It the turbulator tape used to hold on the feathers?
Mike, Stumping and beer is the remedy I need! Hunting again this Saturday. Hopefully I get a crack at that 6 pointer I saw or the nice 9 that is running around up here. I would even take a doe. I am craving JERKY!!!:D
WOJO 14 Yes ! Your order should ship next week.
White and Fl green are the only colors we have now but reviewing options.
The turbulator is placed in front of the feathers about 1/4 inch It is wrapped around the arrow and when installed it looks like a pin stripe. the purpose is to disrupt the air flow around the feathers.
The following link is to a series of videos of Dr.Ashby explaining FOC ..Video # 1 is about turbulators.
http://www.tuffhead.com/education/P&Y%20Dallas%20May%202013.html
SORRY ABOUT THE DELAY IN YOUR FEATHER ORDER. IT HURTS ME AS MUCH AS YOU 😳 Hopefully things will get back to normal
Jesse wrote: As a newbie to carbon arrows and EFOC, I would like to express full support for Joe’s efforts here. I’ve spent the past week reading through all of the discussions in this Friends of FOC forum and taking notes on arrow setups used with similar draw weight bows to mine in order to come up with a best guess starting point for shaft spine. I fully understand that there are a ton of different variables at play and it’s ONLY a best guess but at least it gives me a reasonable starting point.
The skeptics of this thread reminded me of a quote that I read at an archery shop years ago. I’ll have to butcher it here because I don’t remember most of it but I can still get the point across. It began by describing all of the time and effort you can spend tuning your bow to perfection and ends by saying, “But ultimately it’s the jerk on the string that determines the outcome.” 😆
JESSE THANKS FOR THE SUPPORT :D….MAYBE BY BRINGING THE POST UP FRONT WE CAN GET MORE TO SIGN ON:D
wojo14 wrote: Ok, not to beat a dead horse one more time, but, I am going to try A&A feathers from Tuffhead on my new carbons.
Do I need to go 4 fletch? Will 3 be ok? I am tring to achieve the most EFOC I can and the flattest trajectory I can. I do not and will not shoot at game beyond 20 yards(at least this year). Do I need to use the special tape that comes with the feathers??
Right now my set up is 29″ arrows, with 350 out front. (225 head with 125 insert)Gives me 26.5% FOC acording to the Tuffhead calculator.
😕
Working with feathers on a FOC arrow is like experimenting with different weights up front. I would start out with three and see how they fly if satisfied with flight stick with three.
Regardless how the marines describe it 😀 In the archery worold …. three of the same size feathers will weigh less than four of equal weight and size.
I do think Mike got it right 😀 I am not sure about Dave I got interested in the riddle.:D
If you are referring to the turburlator tape that comes with the feathers it is recommended. The tape and cut or shape of the feathers are what makes the A & A give outstanding flight.
They augment each other.
I have been slammed with A & A orders .Some have been put on back order all of which should be filled by the end of next week. Our supplier of raw material held us up. No one likes to be inconvenienced 🙁 but waiting will be worth it. We are getting real good feed back on this product 😀 I use them my self and got a increase in UFOC of 1% I will say my arrow flew well bare shafted before I installed feathers. I use 3 feathers
in reply to: Elk Hunt – Bad Penetration! #62412“There is blood down the shaft about 7″. I did not see the arrow well after the hit so am not sure if that indicates penetration or just residual blood. Thanks for the info on arrow weight.”
MANYSTALKSFEWKILLS
We will never really know what happened but i assure you it happens to everyone who hunts with any regularity.
Ethical hunters feel bad about not recovering a wonded animal,but it is what it is,so we have to try and learn from it.
We should dwell on it long enough that that we are motivated to improve our skills and equipment but not enough that it dampers our enthusiasm for hunting .
Manystalkfewkills ..from your description of the arrow there was not much penetration . Seven inches of blood is probably about five inches of actual penetration beyond skin,tissue and fat.
Any thing is possible but there is a chance you hit higher on the body than thought .Six inches below the top of the back would put the arrow in the top ribs/lower spine. You could have got bone and top of one lung. A hard impact will break a arrow like you describe. A high lung shot would give up blood but subside until the lung fills. Any way it is all supposition now.
Using the FOC calculator at the link above I plugged in these numbers from your arrow.
1, arrow including tip less 3″ for the broad head makes arrow length 29 inches .
2. length of arrow to balance point = 22.75
FOC of your arrow is around 28.5 apron. If I used the right guessed dimensions
You did not give particulars of what components made up your arrow but it is possible if the arrow spine will handle it you could up your total arrow weight 50 grains and increase foc to approximately 30 %. A 3 inch footing would add 25 grains.:D
Thanks for sharing your experience .When we quit learning from these encounters we should hang it up:D:D
in reply to: Elk Hunt – Bad Penetration! #62287cpbiv wrote: I’m hardly an expert on this, and haven’t had the chance to test these arrows on game yet, but try a sleeve of aluminum arrow that fits snugly over the shaft right behind the head as a footing. I did this to mine (2.5″ footing) and they are tough as nails. I had a carbon arrow break right behind the head a few years back on a deer and I think this will solve the problem. I’ve shot 4×4 posts with this sleeved footing setup, and it hasn’t failed me yet. It also adds to FOC, and I’m sure others on here use the same setup and can attest to the toughness on game. The best part is that 1 aluminum arrow will make almost a dozen sleeves.
CPBLV Like you i am a believer in footings. It is possible that if the arrow was footed it might not have broke,,,,,I still wondering why it broke. The footing is insurance but not a complete remedy sometime the arrow will break beyond the footing….
in reply to: Elk Hunt – Bad Penetration! #62168manystalksfewkills wrote: Not sure exactly how high the hit was. Seemed a bit high and back but still in the “kill zone”
I may not be figuring my FOC correctly. 32″ from nock to broad head point. 9 and 1/4″ point to balance point.
Manystalksfewskis,
Sorry to hear about the lack of recovery.
I am not sure what breaking right behind the broad head is indicating particularly with a carbon arrow. You did not say how much blood was on the arrow indicating depth of penetration. You saw the arrow hit …what was you recollection of how much arrow went in.?? It sounds like you got part of a lung but maybe hit bone some where before you got there. STUFF HAPPENS ….very frustrating.
Others might have more insight.
Your total arrow weight is slightly on the low side to breech bone while it is 650 that is close to the minimum but those figures are ball park figures some bone may require more.…..Just thinking out loud.
The AMO method of measuring the FOC does not include the broad head or tip. While it is a exceptable method it is hard to relate back to Ashby’s foc guide lines
Try using this formula
http://tuffhead.com/education/formulas_FOC.html
measure your arrow length from knock to inert. Balance point from knock to balance point and plug those in the formuls.
Not sure you are calculating it correctly.
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