[sharpster]

in reply to: FOC, Tieing the threads together #60154

Muchas gracias Senior Breeding!!!!

I’m way behind on all aspects of building the super-set up… from the very first step of selecting the correct shaft and spine, to bare shaft tuning for EFOC, and right through all the fine points of tweeking the various componants. Thanks for putting this all in one place. Hey I think there could well be a book deal in this for you! 😉

Ron

[sharpster]

in reply to: Need help with carbon arrow selection #60143

newbreedarcher wrote: Well, here’s the deal. I’ve been told that in order to have high foc I will most likely need to have a good bit of weight on the front end. Most people that I talk to say that the weight I would need to get foc would be over kill for white tail. So I guess my question is.. Is a really heavy arrow like that need if I’m only going to be going for white tail, and maybe the occasional black bear? Sorry I didn’t put this in my post yesterday. I was falling asleep at my computer! So I might have left out some crucial Info:)

“Overkill for whitetails”… We’ve heard that a million times but I think it’s pretty safe to say we’ve also all seen deer run off with an arrows sticking out of them more than just a time or two. So we’re pretty much forced to acknowledge the obvious…Penetration is an issue even when hunting whitetails. No such thing as overkill in my view.

Ron

[sharpster]

in reply to: Sharpening single bevel heads ? #38541

Bullseye,

I’ll take a stab at it…Sharpening is as much about understanding the process as it is about technique. Sharpening single bevels can actually be easier than sharpening double bevels once you understand what needs to be done and, in what order to do it.

Start by flattening the back (unbeveled) side of the blade. This is usually a pretty simple step. Just hit the back with a file or stone a couple times to remove any high spots or burrs. This is step one and we do it so that later in the process when we raise a burr, we know for certain it’s a direct result of our work on the bevel side and not something that may have been there all along.

Now we need to raise a burr by working a very coarse stone or if need be, even a file on the bevel side of the BHD. As with sharpening any blade, consistent angle is fairly critical at this point but it’s easier to hold the angle with most single bevels because the bevel is big and wide. You can raise a burr by working the blade any direction you like; Into the edge, away from the edge, lengthwise along the edge, whatever is most comfortable for you. When free-handing, I like to use Ed’s “push-pull” technique. I’ll mount the BHD on a fairly long section of shaft, clamp the file or stone down to the edge of a bench or table and use my right hand to hold the BHD and maintain the angle while my left hand provides the push/pull motion. Actually the left hand just kind helps hold everything in place and the motion is more of a forwards/backwards “rocking” from the waist, moving the BHD and shaft lengthwise forwards/backwards along the edge of the stone or file.

Keep this up with the coarsest stone you have until you have raised a burr that runs continuously along the edge from tip to heel. You don’t need to have a huge heavy burr, but you do need to have a burr. When you’ve gone far enough the edge will feel ragged when you lightly run your thumb or fingers along the edge. If it doesn’t have that ragged feel, then keep going with the coarse stone until it does.

Once you’ve got the burr raised, don’t touch it…yet. Now repeat the process with as many finer grits as you like. You don’t need to spend a whole lot of time with each individual grit because at this point you’re only polishing and refining the edge created with the coarse stone, and each successive grit is only polishing out the scratches left by the previous grit.

Now the last step is to remove the burr and reveal the blazing edge it’s hiding…

As I said you can move the blade any direction you like to raise the burr and polish the bevel but when it comes time to remove the burr, that must be done using into the edge strokes to prevent chasing the burr back and forth from one side of the blade to the other all day. So now we slow down and are more deliberate. Place the BHD bevel side up near one end of the stone with both the cutting edge and the ferrule on the stone. This will stabilize the head and serve as an angle guide as you remove the burr from the blade. Now using a slicing motion, move the head across the stone straight into the cutting edge. This will capture and remove the burr and it’s a very critical step. It may take several passes to completely remove the burr depending on how heavy it is but it’s important to do just the bare minimum required to clear it. When the burr is gone you’ll have a very sharp blade. Check your sharpness level after every pass. Be careful here because if you go too far, you can end up creating another burr on the bevel side. So again, be careful and do only the bare minimum required to remove the burr. Then just strop the BHD using alternating passes, first bevel side then unbeveled side, back and forth with light pressure. You can do this on leather or my personal favorite, plain brown corrugated cardboard. (Stropping is always backward, “away from the edge” passes). After this you should have something similar to a straight razor in your hand…Keep it away from your bowstring! Hope this helps,

Ron

[sharpster]

in reply to: A long look at fletching and EFOC #38459

Fletcher wrote: [quote=Smithhammer]Bump w/ a question – is it just me, or do other people find that EFOC-related discussions tend to draw a knee-jerk reaction in some trad circles? Some people almost seem to see this stuff a sacrilege (since it wasn’t what Howard Hill did…), or contend that it’s all theory and that “the real world is different.” And I continue to be amazed at the number of people who say it only applies to “big” animals. I don’t really care that much what others choose to do, but it’s a trend I’ve definitely noticed and I’m scratching my head as to why.

Regardless, I find threads like this really great and thought-provoking. Just because it’s “traditional” doesn’t mean there still isn’t room for exploration and refinement, in my opinion. Thanks for all the great info here.

Yes, Smith, I see it too. Most people are resistant to change, esp when the new goes against what they have been taught, believed and professed in the past. Meaningful change takes time, but the evidence is there and groundwork laid. Like those who oppose high FOC and single bevels, shoot what you believe to be best and let the results speak for themselves. We all have much to learn.

Excellent post Fletcher… “we all have much to learn”….

Words we should keep not so far in the back of our minds at all times. Well said!

Ron

[sharpster]

in reply to: A long look at fletching and EFOC #36557

Well I see we’re all having fun…

Troy, Sapcut, and King…. I see an awfull lot of connections on those missles y’all are building… now don’t forget the first rule: Structural integity 😛

Hey! I see we’re also doing quotes! I’ve always liked this one:

The passion for truth is silenced by answers which have the weight of undisputed authority.

– Paul Tillich

Ron

[sharpster]

in reply to: Deer Calls? Or Just Blowing Hot Air! #24687

[quote=SteveMcD] Yesterday morning promptly at 8AM an antlered buck is walking up the fire trail about 60 yards in front of me. He is heading away from me, so I pull out this Buck-Doe call a let out two Doe Grunts, as in, come over here. Nada nothing he is still walking away. He’s now 80 yards away and out of desperation I pull out the Super Sexy Pri* Doe Bleat Call… and let out a couple of Bleats – No Re-Action Whatsoever. quote]

Steve,

I’ve been using deer calls- both grunt tubes and the can type bleat calls for years with excellent results… and on very highly pressured deer here in the People’s Republic to boot. Our deer are collage degreed in patterning and avoiding hunters and I have a pretty good idea why you got no reaction from your buck…. he simply didn’t hear your calls.

Like I said, I’ve been using deer calls for many years and let me tell you when they do hear a call, good or bad sounding, they will always exhibit some form of physical reaction. They may stop in their tracks and look in your direction but then continue on if they’re not interested or they may just stop and stare for a while. They may only flick their ears or sometimes they’ll just plain run away but you will see some physical reaction in body language when a deer actually hears a call.

Couple examples: I once grunted in a 6 point buck from well over 100 yards away but I had to get very loud for him to hear the call and react to it. He was walking down a dirt/gravel road far across a gravel pit I was hunting the opposite side of. When I first saw him I knew he wasn’t going to come anywhere near my stand so I quickly got out the grunt tube and hit it pretty hard… nothing. No reaction at all, he just kept up his steady pace. So I hit the grunt tube again only louder this time… still no reaction. So I let out one more grunt far louder than most guys would ever even consider blowing it and the buck instantly stopped dead in his tracks, looked in my direction then turned 90 degrees and walked straight up to 25 yards from me. I rushed the shot and missed but the point is when he finally did hear the call, he reacted physically and in this case favorably too.

Another time I watched a nice 6 point herding does all around my stand one evening but never getting close enough for a shot. The next evening I was back in the same stand with my trusty grunt tube at the ready. The buck showed up late and when I first saw him he was about 80 yrds out walking straight away from me. I quickly got out the grunt tube and did a couple soft grunts… nothing… no reaction at all… so again I hit the tube only a bit louder this time… same thing… still just steadily walking away. Now in desperation, I did a short series of very loud grunts and bingo… he immediately did an about face and literally trotted right up to my stand and I managed to kill him with a broadside 15 yard shot.

One more: A couple weeks back I took my youngest son Ethan out one afternoon for some shotgun squirrel hunting. On the way in to our spot I noticed some smoking hot fresh deer tracks leading the same direction we were going. I said to Ethan keep your eyes open this deer might be right here in front of us somewhere. No sooner had I said that when I noticed the outline of a deer standing in a thicket about 50 yrds in front of us. I pulled out my doe bleat and hit it very softly. I new he heard it because he turned his head and stared in our direction. Keeping Ethan very close, we slowly approached the deer which turned out to be a small one antlered forkhorn. I would bleat softly and occasionally as we kept closing the distance. His attention was fully focused on the “doe” coming towards him but he wasn’t too sure what was going on. Eventually we were able to get to around 25 yards before he got nervous enough to move off a few more yards. I kept hitting the bleat though and we were able to walk up on him again before deciding that we’d had enough fun with this poor guy and letting him go about his business.

Once again, if a deer hears your call he will display some type of reaction. If you see no reaction at all, chances are very good that he didn’t hear it. Don’t toss your calls just yet. Sometimes you gotta be louder than you’d think. Thanks!

Ron

[sharpster]

in reply to: Eagle Eye Champion-Ron Swartz #38961

Thank you very much everyone. I just got lucky. Want to know what I’m most proud of? Take a look at this, my youngest son Ethan shooting and qualifying for the kids Eagle-Eye competition. No, he didn’t win but who cares, just look at that smile!

[/img]

And the results…

[/img]

Thanks to all, especially Robin!

Ron

[sharpster]

in reply to: Reshaping Broadheads into Single Bevel #28676

No problem guys, Homer, we all start life with basically no knowlege what so ever. I had to learn all this stuff the hard way just like anyone else (trial and error), and I have a strong appreciation the tinkerer’s spirit. Yea, we can buy very good single bevel BHDs right off the shelf but sometimes it’s just more fun to put the time and effort into projects like this! Thanks,

Ron

[sharpster]

in reply to: Reshaping Broadheads into Single Bevel #26063

Yes, it can be done but the question is- is it really worth the time/effort when there are so many single bevel BHDs readily available? I customized some STOS blanks a couple years back for our friend David Petersen and although it turned out to be more work than I anticipated, the final product was pretty cool. There are a couple of issues to consider when attempting to convert a BHD that was designed to be double beveled into a single bevel.

The reason single bevels rotate as they penetrate is the huge difference in surface area between the beveled and unbeveled sides of each cutting edge. To develop a good wide bevel generally requires starting with a fairly thick blade. I prefer .050 or thicker although it can be done with blades as thin as .035. Ideally, the entire length of the blade is of consistent thickness. With laminated tip BHDs most of the rotational effect comes from the thicker tip area as the main blade are much thinner.

Here’s a side view of a 160 gr. STOS unground blank, note the 3 individual layers of steel-

[/img]

The other issue is that a true single should be perfectly flat on the unbeveled side from tip to heel. When converting a laminated tip, double bevel BHD into a single, the first thing we need to do is to remove a portion of the lamination from what will be the unbeveled side of each blade. This is the hardest aspect of the process because we need to file completely though the outermost layer in order to expose the main blade beneath it-

[/img]

Once this step is accomplished it’s pretty easy to finish up, just file your bevel on the opposite side of the blade till you can feel just a hint of a burr running continuously from tip to heel. Next, polish the bevel through as many stone grits as you like and then strop off the burr. I like to add a Tanto tip too. Dave’s STOS finished up around 145 gr.

[/img]

Ron

[sharpster]

in reply to: Supper Kodiak #16037

One of my favorite bows is an old Super-K and it has deep string grooves in the limbs like you described but they are from the factory, not from wear. I could be wrong but I have difficulty imagining how even years of extensive use could actually “wear” grooves in the limbs. The older Super Kodiaks are great (not good) bows. Find out if it was made in Grayling MI. or Gainsville FL. (it will be marked on the limb). $250 is a reasonable price for it either way in shootable condition but I’d buy it in a heartbeat if it’s a Grayling.

Ron

[sharpster]

in reply to: Broadhead sharpness and bloodtrails #46904

One other thought on this… It apears that this particular animal bled “out” rather than internally. If you look at the amount of blood on the ground, that’s similar to what you’d expect to see at the sight where the deer was field dressed. I didn’t ask but with so much blood on the ground it’s hard to believe that there could have been much left inside the body cavity???

Ron

[sharpster]

in reply to: Broadhead sharpness and bloodtrails #46883

Steve,

This is definately one of those “what the heck happened”??? shots. I would normally agree with you about the major artery hit as well if I had only the photos to judge by but, I spent close to an hour on the phone with the hunter last night prior to posting this because I was perplexed as anyone as to the lack of penetration given the heavy arrow/broadhead combo being shot from a 50+ pound bow.

Here’s why I don’t believe the major artery beneath the spine was hit: The deer took at least 15 minutes to succumb. I’ve made that artery hit several times over the years myself and when the artery is cut the deer don’t live 2 minutes…(ever in my experience). And here’s why I don’t think a direct spine hit was made either: The deer traveled 15 yards or so before going down, and every true spine shot I’ve ever seen or heard of resulted in the animal dropping in its tracks. Having had a bit more time to ponder this I’m begining to suspect that given that this buck survived for 15 minutes, perhaps only one lung was hit??? And it simply bled out over that course of time???… Don’t know and unfortunately we’ll never know for sure because the deer was rushed to the processer due to the hight temps on the day of the kill and a detailed necropcy was impossible. We don’t even have pics from inside the body cavity which may have shed some light on exactly what happened here.

As for the lack of penetration, could it be that the BHD hit a rib very near the spine where the rib bones are much tougher? or could the arrow have hit a small twig and deflected slightly in flight causeing it to loose some of it’s energy? or perhaps both? Again this is a wierd one for sure but we all know that weird things happen from time to time. I’m a honed and stropped BHD advocate for exactly the reason that the pictures show- greatly increased blood flow with little clotting but even I was amazed by these pictures.

For the record I know the hunter very well and can vouch for his credibility. Here’s a good example of how an Ashby set up coupled with a screamin sharp BHD can make the difference when things don’t go as planned… even when the circumstances seem to defy explaination.

Ron

[sharpster]

in reply to: HOW SHARP IS SHARP ENOUGH? #61019

RedTape wrote:

Can you get a blade too sharp, i.e. fine, resulting in a rolled edge when impacting bone and therefore a lack of sharpness retention? Or would that be caused by using the wrong bevel angle?

In the simplest of thinking , a finer blade would result in a sharper blade, however it would also make the blade weaker. Of course that’s not factoring in any other variable such as blade material, etc.

Redtape,

I have a saying… Sometimes you can get a knife too sharp for a particular application but, a broadhead can never be sharp enough.

And you nailed it BTW, it’s about combining the right steel with a “take the hair off your arm in clumps” level of sharpness and using a bevel geometry that will support that cutting edge throughout the penetration cycle. I’ve heard it said soooo many times- “well a broadhead only needs to make one cut”. Yes, that’s true but think about the stresses that the cutting edge has to endure when making that one cut. A broadhead slamming into hair, hide, flesh, bone and even soft tissue at 160 fps with all the momentum and KE of a heavy shaft driving it through the animal in the blink of an eye is similar to a knife making 1000 cuts. I’ll let Ed explain what he means by “thinnest edge” but I know he’s not talking about extremely low sharpening angles.

Ron

[sharpster]

in reply to: HOW SHARP IS SHARP ENOUGH? #59815

That’s the way to do it John, Good for you buddy. I was talking with a compound shooter who lurks here but doesn’t post. He shoots 650+ gr arrows tipped with Grizzlies or Abowyers so he’s not your typical wheelie bow guy. He also uses decoys from time to time and has killed several deer that never ran anywhere. He says it apears that they think the decoy may have done something to them because after the shot the deer will walk straight over to the decoy and fall over. You may not have your kill on video but tell everyone you can about it. Congratulations! Thanks,

Ron

[sharpster]

in reply to: 2 Blade double bevel and 3 blade vs single bevel #59312

Hi Phil,

Well you had to go and open that can of worms now didn’t you? This is a perfect example of what I mean about the 3 blade “hole” leaving a better blood trail than the two blade “slit” argument. Here’s the painful truth of the matter. The amount of blood left on the ground is primarily influenced by 3 critical factors (although there are other less influential factors too). The big 3 are in order of importance:

1) Shot placement
2) The level of broadhead sharpness
3) The presents or absence of an exit wound

I’m a devout 2 blade shooter but even so, given the choice between shooting an animal with a wicked sharp 3 blade or a pretty sharp 2 blade head, I’ll take the wicked sharp 3 blade every time because it’s not the broadheads size or blade count that matters most, it’s the level of sharpness and how that relates to and influences the internal physiological responses triggered in any animal by any form of cutting of tissue (lacerating wound). (Wow, that even sounds complicated to me). The science is there to support my argument but lets try and simplify it for a minute. I recently cut the back of my right leg on a pretty dang sharp piece of sheetmetal. Cut is an understatement, opened it up like a zippered pouch is more like it. Haven’t had a wound like that in years. Right though skin, fat, and about ¾” deep into the muscle tissue and about 3 inches long. Nasty for sure. Now here’s the cool part- It didn’t bleed at all. I mean not at all. Less than ¼ teaspoon in the 1 ½ hours it took till it was closed up. Now why is that? Because although the “blade” was plenty sharp enough to cut me it wasn’t sharp enough to trigger the massive hemorrhage that we’d expect from this type of wound. Conversely, why does a shaving nick bleed forever? Simple, because the cut of a true razor edge cuts each individual microscopic capillary and blood vessel perfectly cleanly. They may be only microscopic blood vessels but the cut ends are wide open and the blood just flows and flows. A cut from a semi-sharp blade on the other hand tears as much as it cuts. As a result those tiny blood vessels have many loose and ragged ends which are extremely helpful to the body’s natural clotting response. The duller the blade is, the rougher the cut will be and even though the rough cut causes far more cellular damage than a surgically sharp blade will, the surgically sharp blade will produce copious amounts of free flowing blood. In fact, the greater level of cellular damage is the cause of the rapid clotting because the more cellular damage to the tissue the greater the body’s clotting response will be. In short, the duller the blade, the greater the cellular damage and therefore the greater the natural clotting response. The sharper the blade the less cellular damage and the less natural clotting response. (translation- the amount of blood on the ground is directly related to the level of BHD sharpness).

I guess I should let Ed explain it. I’m sure he’ll do a far better job than I ever could. As for your cousins experiences with the 3 blades and Grizzlies, I wasn’t there but I can only suspect that either the 3 blade heads he was shooting were quite a bit sharper than the Grizzlies or maybe the shot placement was better but if I had to bet, I’d say the Grizzlies just weren’t sharp enough. I get photos of animals and bloodtrails sent to me that are so bloody that I can’t even post them on the internet… and the vast majority of them were caused by the infamous 2 blade slit.

Ed, Can you add to this? Thanks,

Ron

[Author]

Posts