[Ed Ashby]

in reply to: A long look at fletching and EFOC #33773

We must keep this site secret while working on the BHFOC. I see the relatively benign EFOC and small fletching thread got pulled from another site. No telling what they might do if they heard of the heresy underway here. 😈

Ed

[Ed Ashby]

in reply to: A long look at fletching and EFOC #33407

Little doubt that at least a long IF will be needed to get enough dynamic shaft spine for a BHFOC arrow. Then it’s going to take a really heavy point weight. I wouldn’t be surprised if the total arrow weight got up clost to 1700 grains; perhaps more. Pretty hefty, but still way lighter than the solid fibergalss fish arrows Bob Swinehart used on his elephant or those Monty Browning has hunted everyhing with for years … at low FOC. Amazing that very few folks have jumped on Monty for using such heavy arrows. I guess using low FOC and large fletching makes it alright to use extremely heavy arrows. 🙄

Ed

[Ed Ashby]

in reply to: A long look at fletching and EFOC #32786

Since one of those ‘primitive’ PNG arrows made 42.6% FOC I suppose the ‘unknow territory’ of the BHFOC would have to start at 43% – yikes!

Ed

[Ed Ashby]

in reply to: A long look at fletching and EFOC #31230

bullseye wrote: I will report on my coming adventures……Bullseye

Looking forward to hearing them!

Ed

[Ed Ashby]

in reply to: A long look at fletching and EFOC #30139

Fletcher, have you ever tried adding a hardwood footing to a cain shaft? Just curious what that would give, FOC wise.

Ed

[Ed Ashby]

in reply to: A long look at fletching and EFOC #29477

Smithhammer wrote: “In the beginner’s mind, there are many possibilities. In the expert’s, there are few.”[/i]

I like that quote! It’s a ‘keeper’.

Ed

[Ed Ashby]

in reply to: A long look at fletching and EFOC #28455

CareyE wrote: Dr. Ashby, thank you for all your work. I am going on my first elk hunt this year and hope to be able to use EFOC to bring one down if given the chance.

Here’s to a successful elk hunt Carey. Looking forward to hearing a great hunt’n story.

Ed

[Ed Ashby]

in reply to: A long look at fletching and EFOC #28047

Smithhammer wrote: As an amateur history/archaeology buff, I’ve been wondering about that. Seems highly likely that this was figured out a long time ago, by people who used bows a lot more than we do. Anyone know of good sources for more info about this?

The PNG article is here; in the Ashby Library section. Here’s the link, if you haven’t read it. This article will be featured in the upcoming issue of “The Journal of Primitive Technology”.

https://www.tradbow.com/members/310.cfm

Ed

[Ed Ashby]

in reply to: A long look at fletching and EFOC #28038

Smithhammer, your post prompted me to take a look around at a few sites. I see what you’re talking about, and it’s not just with EFOC items. Not to worry though. I’m long past the point of trying to convince those who have closed minds … but I won’t hold back on reporting what the data shows. If it offends some, well, that’s the way things go, and I won’t waste my time in meaningless back and forths with such folks.

Long ago I got tired of never hearing a bad word about any product, as though every product on the market (that pays to advertise) is perfect in all aspects. Not every product is perfect in every regard. In fact few (if any) are totally perfect; but that some things work better then others can not be questioned.

Some Trad archers seem to get offended if anything even slightly less than glowing is said about a product they personally like or about a concept that seems diffrent to what they use, but are quick to point out all the misleading advertizing and bad products and performance concepts found in the ‘compound media’. It’s a glaring double-standard.

It was a lack of honest, reliable information, untainted by any personal-gain motive, that started me on my personal quest ot find answers as to what factors affect an arrow’s terminal performance, how they affect termianl performance, and how much effect they have. This I wish to leave to those that will follow. If it prevents the wounding and loss of just a few animals it is more than worth enduring the ‘slings and arrows’ of the detractors.

Ed

[Ed Ashby]

in reply to: A long look at fletching and EFOC #27987

jlmiller wrote: Anybody that attended Dr. Ashby’s seminar in Kalamazoo should know that EFOC is just as important for whitetails as it is for any other big game. I am pushing 70 now and can tell you that FOC is probably the most important development in traditional archery that I have witnessed in over 50 years of shooting. Thank you Dr. Ashby for teaching an old dog a new trick!

Joe

Thank you for the kind words, Joe. I think you’re right about EFOC/Ultra-EFOC … and those ‘primitive’ (?) Papua New Guinea natives were using Ultra-EFOC long before they had any significant contact with the outside world; even before they had steel, and used only hardwood points … but we’re starting to catch up with them. 😀

Ed

[Ed Ashby]

in reply to: A long look at fletching and EFOC #27982

Smithhammer wrote: Bump w/ a question – is it just me, or do other people find that EFOC-related discussions tend to draw a knee-jerk reaction in some trad circles? Some people almost seem to see this stuff a sacrilege (since it wasn’t what Howard Hill did…), or contend that it’s all theory and that “the real world is different.” And I continue to be amazed at the number of people who say it only applies to “big” animals. I don’t really care that much what others choose to do, but it’s a trend I’ve definitely noticed and I’m scratching my head as to why.

It’s been that way ever since I first started to share what I was finding in the Study, and seemed to get worse after a few folks began trying the things the Study indicated, and posting the positive results they were seeing. Why some folks react as if all these ‘new things’ (which are likely very ancient, but we are just now re-learning them) are a personal threat to them. I’ve never understood that.

Ed

[Ed Ashby]

in reply to: A long look at fletching and EFOC #62738

Troy is on the right track. I’ll be heading off on my long drive to Kalamozoo very soon, but Troy doesn’t have as far to travel, and with all the info he asked for I’m confident he can help … after all, he’ll be doing the EFOC tuning part of the K’zoo presentation! 😀

Ed

[Ed Ashby]

in reply to: A long look at fletching and EFOC #62480

You ask very valid questions. If your arrows are well tuned you need less fletching. The wide spread use of larger fletching is a combination of several things. Part is tradition and past is that most folks don’t have their arrows really well tuned and, without a lot of fletching, they see a lot of ‘wiggle’ of the shaft in flight. With the EFOC/Ultra-EFOC arrows, once they are tuned they will shoot just as accurately without any fletching as they will with fletching – when you are using a field point. Once you add your broadhead you’ve introduced some windsheer effect. Then you need to add only enough fletching to overcome that windsheer effect; no more.

One factor that is missed by most folks is that the TRUE FOC of an arrow in flight is dependent on the location of the CENTER OF PRESSURE on the arrow WHEN THE ARROW IS IN FLIGHT. What we ‘measure’ for the FOC is merely a relative reference point. It is an ‘indicator’ of the TRUE FOC but doesn’t dictate the TRUE FOC. If you’re using a lot of fletching you are exerting more pressure ot the arrow’s rear, while in flight. This actually will REDUCE the TRUE FOC of the arrow in flight.

You are ‘spot on’ with the tuning. Once the arrow is tuned you want to use the very least amount of fletching (and fletching pressure) that you can. Once my bare shaft is tuned with a field point I go through a ‘tuning process’ to determine the minimum amount of fletching that I can use with the broadhead I intend to use. The tuning of the fletching involves more than just shooting with the broadhead to obtain stable flight. One needs to do some shooting under differing wind conditions; crosswind, quartering wind, into the wind and with a trailing wind; to be certain the fletching is large enough to stabilize the broadhead under different conditions of windsheer. You also need to shoot them enough time to be sure that the fletching is enough to counter the effect of the occasional bad release.

Ed

[Ed Ashby]

in reply to: Coues kill — arrow set-up #62462

Yes, you would want to remove the forward part of the fletching then trim the remaining portion to a straight slope.

Troy makes his by cutting the front section off larger pre-cut fletching, by making a vertical cut at the rear. Apparently Troy has a HUGE supply of pre-cut feathers. I cut mine from full length feathers, and get several from one feather (cheap to make!).

The straight-back portion of the A&A pattern IS there for a purpose: it creates the least turbulence at the fletching’s rear (or so O.L. tells me, and he the aeronautics expert) which he says results in the least ‘noise’ in flight; and, as usual, I think he’s right. We tried small fletching with different cuts and the straight-cut trailing edge did sound quieter in flight. Regardless, just shortening the feathers and reducing the size and height of the fletching will reduce the amount of offset and helical surface; if you have offset and helical on the existing fletching; which will lower the sound level.

You are right about the BH’s you shoot; they have very low windsheer effect, so require less fletching.

As an aside, and something few consider: the TRUE FOC of an arrow depends on the location of the CENTER OF PRESSURE exerted on the arrow in flight. It’s likely that, if you use a lot of fletching the fletching may be lowering the TRUE FOC significantly, by shifting the Center of Pressur farther back along the shaft in flight.

Ed

[Ed Ashby]

in reply to: The question of weight in our minds #62393

Bu-bu-bu-but I don’t aim with a gap? 😯

Ed

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