tucsonbowhunterNovember 9, 2010 at 11:05 pmPost count: 27
Hey so im gonna make the swich to cedar arrows pretty soon. And in my attempt to reach EFOC im gonna try some of those woody weights from 3rivers. I was just wondering about how much they would weaken the dynamic spine of the 29″ cedar arrow lets say a 75gr to a 125gr. And if any one has ever used them in the past your imput would be much appreciated.
David PetersenMemberNovember 10, 2010 at 12:11 amPost count: 2749
Tucson — With woods, spine is always a bit of a mystery even with the same woods. I’m hoping that Fletcher, and others, will chime in here to be more helpful than I would ever pretent to be. I reluctantly will say that I got really hot on the WW’s when they first came out a few years ago and tested them hard … and was disappointed. Bottom line is that wood is wood and nothing moreso than cedar so far as breakability. You add more weight to the front, esp. when you lengthen the point, and the tendency to break just behind the head increases. And then you have two joints, one between the WW and field or broadhead, which also can break and does. So while I love the idea and live for the day that someone comes up with a way to get around 25% foc with woodies and increase shaft strength rather than the opposite, I won’t personally use or recommend them for hunting. If you look at the cover of the current TBM you see a couple of “antique” heads with lots of obvious “mecha nical advantage” problems in light of today’s arrow penetration and lethality knowledge. But what they do have is long extensions onto the shaft, which distributes the head’s weight and decreases likelihood of breakage. To go back even farther, the old English bodkins had very long “shaft socks.” For now, it seems to me that’s our best hope for getting efoc on woodies without reducing overall arrow integrity. Bottom line imho: If you want an arrow ststem that penetrates lethally even with unfortunate shot placement, go for overall arrow weight, around 650, and a good single-bevel broadhead. The fewer pieces we have in a unit, the less the chance of failure. That said I applaud the farmer-hunter who invented the Woody Weight, trying best he could to get lethal efoc to wood shafts. One step at a time … dp
John CarterNovember 10, 2010 at 3:26 amPost count: 71
Personaly I won’t use Cedar as a Hunting arrow any more.
I find either the German mountain pine from Kustom King or the Northern pine shafts from Chris boyton in the UK both make heavier arrows and are both a lot stronger than Cedar.
My club is based in an old disused quarry,so things like strength in arrow shafts can show it’s self real fast out there.
I also don’t like adding extra stuff to the front of my arrows because I feel it just adds leverage to help break them even sooner,if I want heavier arrows I buy a 5lb heavier spine and then use a heavy broadhead in the 200g range to bring the dynamic back.
Another trick if you want extra wheight forward is to tapper your shafts.
Most of the arrows found on board the Mary Rose were tappered,so if it was good enough for somebody who’s life depended on it,,it’s also good enough for me:wink:
Another thing that might interest you,,check out the arrow fix tool on the 3R web site,,,also an easy way to add hard wood footing an get both the extra wheight and strength.
tucsonbowhunterNovember 10, 2010 at 12:41 pmPost count: 27
Thankyou for the advice guys. but what I dont understand is doesnt a 200gr broadhead give me the same chance for breakage as say a 125gr point and a 75gr WW (=200gr)? Just curious. I understand you dont want your arrows too complex though.
Oh and to Mr. Peterson I read on another post that your wood arrors were 700gr with 15% FOC. Would you mind sharing your set up with me and how you achived that with wood? Im guessing its probly not cedar…
David PetersenMemberNovember 10, 2010 at 4:11 pmPost count: 2749
Tucson — those are hex pine shafts by Whispering Wind, footed with a very heavy wood but I don’t recall what. Also tapered, and with a head in the 190-200 category. I experimented with inserting as much as 3″ of titanium rod up front but even that couldn’t get us past 19%. Read some of Fletcher’s posts regarding his preference for lighter stronger woods than cedar for getting good foc. Fletcher/Rick Stillman/The Feathered Shaft is also experimenting with lead wire inserts.
I see two reasons that a WW setup is more prone to fail than a solid point the same weight: First, the metal-metal joint between the weight and the head ads an additional potential weak spot. Second, the overall head length with WW provides a longer lever-arm thus more pressure against the shaft just behind the head with angled hits to hard objects like bone, or in my testing, a tree trunk. Believe me I have nothing against Woody Weights and celebrate them as a bold experiment and step in the right direction. I just don’t trust them, after my testing, for hunting elk, which is what I mostly do. We now have a 200-grain broadhead glue-on in the El Grande and I predict an ongoing increase in glue-on head weight availability. Combine this with the extra strength and slight increase in forward weight of a footed shaft and that’s about the best we can do, for now, for efoc with woodies. I often look at the old English bodkins and similar “antique” heads and wonder if the lengthened metal collar extending an inch or more down the wood shaft could be a solution to both increased efoc and lessened shaft breakage. Someone smarter than me will have to figure that out. dave
John CarterNovember 10, 2010 at 8:35 pmPost count: 71
Tucson,I was refering to the extra “length” adding leverage rather than just the wheight alone,,,sorry should of made myself clearer.
Another way to add wheight that I didn’t think about,is to drill out the end of the shaft and add wheight in the form of a nail or short length of lead solder ect.
I think the jig and drill bit for doing this is also available through 3Rivers.
David PetersenMemberNovember 10, 2010 at 11:23 pmPost count: 2749
Tucson — I apologize for my earlier sloppy and rushed response. I’ve edited it a bit for clarity so try again if you wish.
John — Until recently I had one of the overpriced jigs for drilling out a wood shaft and inserting a nail (real dumb idea as no nail is likely to weight significantly more than the wood you remove to accommodate it), lead wire (increases weight but not strength), titanium rod (increases weight and strength but is obnoxiously expensive)or whatever — available from 3Rivers and eleswhere. Frankly, they just don’t work. Impossible to keep the drilled hole centered in the shaft. To do it right, especially to do it deep, like 3″, which I’ve found necessary to make any measureable diff in foc, you need a professional jig which few of us can afford. Fletcher/The Feathered Shaft, has one and probly other arrowsmiths I don’t know about. Good intentions all around, but I’ve been there and trying to save others a few bucks and disappointment. dp
FletcherNovember 11, 2010 at 3:50 amPost count: 177
My experience with the Woody Weights is pretty limited, so all I will comment about them is that they well made and both the male and female tapers are correct and true. I’ve had no alignment problems with them. Make sure you clean he inside of the taper well before gluing.
You will need to add one lb of static spine for each 8-10 grains of added weight.
BuzzardNovember 13, 2010 at 12:17 pmPost count: 66
Tucson; I’ve tried WW’s in the past, see my previous post,last spring i believe, and i can’t recommend them either. While i didn’t get the breakage problems mentioned, i used lodgepole pine shafts, i did have serious flight and spine issues. All over the map, so i went back to my normal setup. All’s well now.
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