Home Forums Bows and Equipment Wind and Arrow Flight?

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    • Etter1
      Post count: 831

      So I’ve always noticed that a crosswind will cause my fletchings to wag in flight. They seem to only dip once and then regain a straight flight. It looks to me like they do this at the end of what I would think would be the paradox. Without wind, they fly like darts out of all of my bows.

      Today I was up in the mountains and noticed that this would happen every single time I shot if I was on a ridge top. The thing is that the wind wasn’t even very strong. 5-10mph. When I got home, I switched bows and shot with the wind on my left side. Every time the breeze would blow, the same thing would happen.

      I believe both bows to be tuned perfectly and the POI may not have even changed during these “odd’ shots but it bugs me. I’m currently shooting three 5” helical fletching.

      Is this normal for you all as well? I can’t imagine too many days in the midwest that you could hunt if arrow flight gets messed up so easily.

    • Doc Nock
      Post count: 1150

      As usually, I suggest others will have much more definitive input to share, but I have played with what you are speaking.

      Once I got into the higher FOC arrows I dropped feather size. Doc Ed keeps telling me I can go smaller, but I “won” on another auction site some years back, a 3″x1/2″ chopper to shape to the A&A of Doc and his friend’s design, so I’m using 3″x1/2″ 3-fletch.

      Where I used to shoot, was along the side of my house and my target was another 15 yrds past the end of the house depth wise… In the summer, wind always blew the length of the 4 unit dwelling… so I was shooting from calm into a wind tunnel the last 15 yards!

      With other guys shooting 4″ 4-fletch and 3-fletch 5″ low sheilds, they always had that “wobble”… and yea, it does “Usually” come back on line and hit where it should… till you want to shoot thru a smaller ‘hole’ in brush and then you got issues.

      Between their larger feathers and my smaller, mine did NOT do the Hoochey Coo.. even in strong gusty wind on those days! FWIW.

      I won’t even attempt to defend the larger head- small feather-High FOC as all that data is here on another forum

    • Etter1
      Post count: 831

      Doc, I shoot tree sharks and I’ve always wanted a lot of feather to stabilize such a big head but, in reality, tree sharks have less actual surface area than the much more narrow zwickey delta and I’ve never had arrow flight issues. I’m currently shooting a 600 grain 28″ arrow with 300 grains of that being the insert and point. Maybe I’ll try going down to a shorter feather on my next set. Or maybe even four fletch. I have to assume that four fletch of 3″ feathers would catch even less crosswind than 3-4″ feathers.

      I don’t know if my cheap fletching jig has a setting for four fletch but it sure would be nice to try out. I know Bruce shoots them.

    • Doc Nock
      Post count: 1150

      I do not want to appear to be giving advice! I’m not comfortable with that, but I don’t mind sharing personal experience to foster further thinking…

      Doc Ed told me and shared some articles that he ended up shooting ‘flying hatchets” with only 2″ feathers. You should be in the EFOC of higher range with those numbers and arrow length. I’m in the same ball park with a longer shaft…

      He gives me a good talking to occasionally about NOT NEEDING to have 3 fletch- 3″ .

      I did the math (not my strong suit) but it seemed to me that 4 fletch 3″ is the same as 3 four -inch in surface area…

      Whether wind shear affects 4 fletch the same as 3 longer, I cannot say.

      I did some 4 fletch and couldn’t see a twit of difference at 30 yards and in, so I went back to 3-fletch.

      I could try smaller feathers… but since I have the 3″ chopper (well, a friend who was in the feather biz has had it, but will be returning it one of these days) and lots of 3″ feathers, I’ll stick with that.

      Been shooting the Tusker 150’s weighted up in Single Bevel… 200 gr. total with 100 gr. insert! STOS and them both flew lovely, but I decided to go with the Single Bevel. I like the damage it does!

    • RalphRalph
      Moderator
      Post count: 2544

      I live in the Texas panhandle, you sayin’ wind bothers arrows? ๐Ÿ˜€

      You oughta see what it does to my attitude sometimes.:evil:

      With little winds I think less fletch and heavy points be helpful but in our winds not thinking about it is the best one can do. Don’t peek, shoot the shot.

      I believe for us, we that shoot in the wind so much, that the left/right thing becomes like the up/down thing does in instinctive shooting. Our brain does the auto thing.

    • Doc Nock
      Post count: 1150

      R2/D2.

      You’ve been kind enough to share pics of your world with me. The thick trees and shrubs seems to be lacking at least in the 20′ tall variety…

      perhaps if it corrects in your more open spaces, and hits the intended mark, that is all that matters. Shooting thru brush, samplings and such, it’d better (arrow) come out of paradox QUICK and not be “behaving badly” or all is lost where I was…seems to be similar here but I’ve not been in the flora here to know for sure yet!

      Big wind is what it is…. steerage is what it IS too… it can only do so much, then a low profile to resist the effects of wind shear, seems to make sense… operant wording being SEEMS!

    • RalphRalph
      Moderator
      Post count: 2544

      Hey Doc, the wind ain’t blowing today, can ya believe, and the dozen arrows I just shot didn’t know what to think. They actually flew straight and to where I planned on them gettin’ to. Golly:D

      Some days around here those arrows are in never ending paradox:roll:

      Etter, I was gonna mention that a tail wind can have a ‘what the hey’ effect on arrows.

    • Bruce Smithhammer
      Post count: 2514

      Am I the only one who loves it when you two start poking at each other?

    • Doc Nock
      Post count: 1150

      Nah…we love it too or we’d not do it!

      :lol:8):D:roll:

      Ralph knows that I don’t hold with convincin anyone to shoot nuttin cause I find it best…

      So we pecker at each other a bit…

      I’m not sure if the wind is a product of Texas or some of the Texans?!!!:roll::shock:

    • RalphRalph
      Moderator
      Post count: 2544

      Doc Nock wrote: R2/D2.

      You’ve been kind enough to share pics of your world with me. The thick trees and shrubs seems to be lacking at least in the 20′ tall variety…

      Hey Doc, I ain’t no virgin, I’ve stuck a few trees.

      Might not have been 20 footers though.:roll:

      P.S. You live closer to the “big windy” than I do. ๐Ÿ˜‰

    • Doc Nock
      Post count: 1150

      R2 wrote:

      P.S. You live closer to the “big windy” than I do. ๐Ÿ˜‰

      Now you’re being Political and I’m tellin… me thinks you be referencing ole DC (dilitrous crapola) and politic’s aint allowed…

      BTW, Greene County is a lot further than the miles would suggest:shock: from DC…

    • Etter1
      Post count: 831

      Which one is Walter Matthau and which is Jack Lemon?

    • Doc Nock
      Post count: 1150

      Etter1 wrote: Which one is Walter Matthau and which is Jack Lemon?

      Whatcha talkin bout, Willis????8):roll:

    • RalphRalph
      Moderator
      Post count: 2544

      I was talkin’ Chicago, not politics :shock

      Chicago has a windy reputation right? ๐Ÿ˜€

    • Doc Nock
      Post count: 1150

      R2 wrote: I was talkin’ Chicago, not politics :shock

      Chicago has a windy reputation right? ๐Ÿ˜€

      Doh..! I fingered you meant like in the “Wind blew the $shx flew and there stood Congress”…

      But then again, Chi town sure nuff has it’s own home-made windy ones, too, eh???

      So what was the original topic again???

      Oh…yeah, wind deflecting arrows and making them wobble and come back in line… now I recollect! :shock:8)

    • Etter1
      Post count: 831

      No penalties for thread hijacks here. ๐Ÿ˜€

    • RalphRalph
      Moderator
      Post count: 2544

      AH Doc. Figured you’d put 2 and 2 together and get the tale of two windies.

      Etter, you oughta try holding a bow in place with a quiver full of arrows when the wind doth blow hard.

      I normally hunt with a bow that has a two arrow quiver but I take two bows to my lease and when the wind gets up I use the one sans quiver.

    • Bruce Smithhammer
      Post count: 2514

      Doc Nock wrote:

      …I’m not sure if the wind is a product of Texas or some of the Texans?!!!:roll::shock:

      I’ll briefly attempt a serious suggestion before we turn it back over the the Doc & Ralph show – I’m willing to bet that reducing fletching a bit may solve the issue. I know the conventional thinking is that one needs large fletching to stabilize a large broadhead, but I wonder if it can also lead to two competing levers at either end of the arrow, creating the effect you’re seeing? I also think that when you get into higher FOC%, that need for a lot of stability from the arse end becomes less.

      Of course, I’m only on my first cup of joe after a night of revelry, so take the abve with a grain of salt.

    • RalphRalph
      Moderator
      Post count: 2544

      What y’all talkin about? Cain’t hear ya.

    • Doc Nock
      Post count: 1150

      Good one Ralph! Yup, that be windy for sho!

      Bruce,

      That was where I was going. Doc’s EFOC stuff suggests and has research to back it up, that a big fat broad head with sufficient EFOC or UEFOC is like a string (arrow) tied to a rock (BH) and the string follows where the rock is propelled.

      I remember outcomes but not details. it was indeed a big fat, wide broad head that they shot… and on here, Jason of Podcast, showed he shot some big heads BARE SHAFT, with high enough FOC and they shot well!

      Feathers, once you have an arrow tuned to your bow and shooting style, with sufficient FOC, then feathers are to help correct for any MISTAKES WE impart (I sure do) into the shot under field conditions.

      However, there are many here who like lower FOC, wood arrows and lighter shafting overall…. no problem. Do what suits…but then one has to realize there are “advances” that have been made that will highlight some of the vagaries in arrow flight, but live with em and enjoy the ride.

      Nothing wrong with the old ways and woods! As I’ve shared before, when arthritis forced me to drop bow weight, I started researching EVERY thing I could to learn how to improve penetration, harness all the arrow energy and reduce the noodling effect going down range and still not shoot the rebar weight arrows that were more common back when carbon first started being used with trad sticks.

      I remember loading them with .095 weed eater line to get weight up. Some were using condiments (salt, pepper, oregano)(Cook up a meal right there by just pulling your arrow apart)

      But those heavy arrows with standard foc would drop like a stone…moving the weight forward, really changed things and I sought out ways to get lighter GPI but stiff arrows.

      Makes my brain sweat to just remember all I went thru, so no, I won’t recommend it to anyone, but will share the results!

    • RalphRalph
      Moderator
      Post count: 2544

      I guess y’all know that we’re jacking with the #1 excuse for a bad shot in the world of archery don’t ya!!!!!!

    • Doc Nock
      Post count: 1150

      R2 wrote: I guess y’all know that we’re jacking with the #1 excuse for a bad shot in the world of archery don’t ya!!!!!!

      WEll, hoss, it might be the #1 reason for Texans missing bow shots, but the rest might find it’s “#2 – shooting” that is the culprit.:shock:

    • RalphRalph
      Moderator
      Post count: 2544

      This has some pretty good generic info.

      Also one fine elk pic.

      http://www.eastonhunting.com/blog/build-a-hunting-arrow-to-cut-through-th

      Tomorrow we’ll be shooting in 25 +/- north winds and I’m going to shoot some carbons with 245 gr. up front and four 2.5″ feathers.

      I’ll wear a watch cap to keep my ears from flapping. Perhaps I won’t hear lips flapping ya reckon Doc? ๐Ÿ˜€

    • Doc Nock
      Post count: 1150

      I got a “page not found” on that link…

      As for the rest, pretty cute about the watch cap…

      As for your lips not flappin…:shock:

      Only the bounds of friendship and decorum keep me from commenting on THAT statement!:roll::wink:

    • RalphRalph
      Moderator
      Post count: 2544

      Sorry, should of mentioned the guy I’ve told you of that I shoot with that never shuts up. Not you my friend.

      To bad that site won’t work. It went along with your lines about some FOC, skinny arrows and smaller fletchings to help with wind issues. To which I agree.

    • Doc Nock
      Post count: 1150

      LOL… yea, I remember you mentioning him…

      But I sometimes “resemble” that remark too… ๐Ÿ˜†

      As for the arrow stuff… tain’t nuttin I’m smart enough to have figured out. Just couple years chatting up Doc Ashby and reading a ton of his stuff…some o f which I can even remember longer than it takes to catch 40 winks! ๐Ÿ˜ฎ

      I read. I think. I question. I try. I try again. and then start to put together what I THINK might work for ME.

      I respect others doing the same… but for me, in my environments where I shoot, it works out ok with smaller fedders and big ole heads if I have a higher FOC…

      Been finding target carbons, lighter GPI, then over-foot with alum. shafting BOP for 2″ and it has kept my total arrow weight under 600 gr. at 29.5″ – 30.5″ arrows, .340 spine, 300 gr. up front and no cap wrap, just spray cap and small(er) feathers.

      Once I did that, I stopped seeing kick, wobbles or other “arrow behaving badly” actions in a good stiff cross wind…

      Of course, it’s not the kind of wind that would make a sheep dog look like he was riding in a convertible at 60mph, for sure!

      E. Deer I’ve met seem to get totally hinked out when the limbs are swaying, brush lashing about, they go hide somewhere I’ve not found or can’t get close without them spooking out the back side of the shelter belt!

      So I just try to create a manageable arrow for the ‘breezy’ day, not the gale force ones!:shock:

    • RalphRalph
      Moderator
      Post count: 2544

      I don’t mess with windy days either. The deer bury up in the canyons and are unapproachable even if you find them. They lay where they can see in all directions except behind them and the wind is coming from that way.

      Good for me to lay low til the wind starts laying then deer seem to start popping out all over.

      I imagine our interpretations of breezy/windy are considerable different.

    • Doc Nock
      Post count: 1150

      I think you said a mouthful there on difference in definitions, Ralph!

      I can remember living in MT and you’re even more wide open type country than where I was!

      Every time I would string up a 5wt rod to fish the Madison or Gallitin, by the time I got to water’s edge, the wind that seemed calm up at the truck, fired up and I couldn’t get a line into the water.

      Back to the truck, re-gear with a 8wt forward 9′ rod and back to fishing successfully.

      I was so overwhelmed by all that open country and distance, I never really got into archery that much… spent more time doping the constant WIND and shooting high BC bullets instead of EFOC arrows! ๐Ÿ˜ฏ

    • grumpygrumpy
      Member
      Post count: 962

      Some time ago I talked about the dread “butt wiggle”

      When I used wide 4″ fletches, and it was suggested that the big butt made for big wiggles. The rule I adopted was “The bigger the butt, the bigger the wiggle” Changed to low profile, 3″ fletches, and the but wiggle only shows up when it is gusty (no steady winds here). Mind you my short arrows are 23% foc.

      Working on a bow, as we speak. Actually I steamed the upper limb last night, and now watching it as it sets on the rack. Steam the other limb tonight. Then I have to watch it for another 24 hours, before I can fiberglass. Lot of work making bows.

    • Doc Nock
      Post count: 1150

      G,

      You do have a way with words! I love your posts!

      I have never attempted to build a bow, but watched a few custom bowyers do their thing…and a few who whittled them from sticks, too!

      All I can say is “more power to you!” Tip o the hat! ๐Ÿ˜ฏ

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