Steve Sr.October 23, 2009 at 10:13 amPost count: 344
A discussion here on one of the many advantages of the high MA heads, in this instance showing a less “spooked” animal after shot, once again got wheels turning in my head.
Sitting in a BEAUTIFUL drizzle on the down wind side of a mid woods trail amongst the white oaks and hickory trees, last evening, watching leaves trickle down amongst the pitter patter of rain drops, I was doing my best to calculate what angles of shots will be presented to me here upon untimely arrivals of the deer. *They are LATE!!*
Since they ARE whitetail, and defy ALL logic at times, that can be pretty much impossible yet once in a great while, if I hold my mouth right, I forsee a shot before it occurs and I find myself having these thoughts repeatedly in newer set ups.
Other than watching the arrow spin towards the animal, my brain recording memories that stay with me, I ALSO like to watch the animal GO DOWN. I’m pretty safe assuming all of us share this preference. 😀
Only having two shoulder blade penetrations successful in my years afield, I simply don’t have a lot of available information on how far they travel on such shots, yet read some here from Kingwouldbe and David plus occasional others.
On the subject of shorter recovery trails I have a mixture of assumptions contradicting each other circling in my head, so here I am asking for thoughts and experiences that you all can share with others.
Let us assume that the deer or elk is unspooked at the shot, unknowing of the hunter’s presence just for comparison sake.
When we make a shot that does indeed break through the bone threshold on the animal’s scapula and the arrow’s angle of entrance takes it into the vitals how DOES that compare to a simple example that simply passes through from a broadside shot to the lungs/heart strictly in the distance of recovery? (So far.)
This is NOT meant as some discussion convincing anyone to not take the scapula shot, or INTEND to take the scapula shot or intend to point out either is better or worse. With both entering the vitals, both are D E A D. Enough on that.
However, has there been any kind of pattern in differences in the distance the animal travels after hit?
ONE thought process is that ambulation is more difficult with a penetrated scapula and the animal will NOT go as far being less mobile, yet I know a “three legged” animal still has 50 percent more than I do and 100 percent faster so perhaps not part of the equation? 😉
My SECOND thought is, of course, that the energy it takes to penetrate that same scapula has to be transformed into pressure or “shock” that has to be felt by the animal and would seem to be a factor effecting speed and distance of flight. In this case it would SEEM that the animal would then go FURTHER on average.
As I indicated above, conflicting thoughts. 🙄 An over-active mind is a CURSE! *loss of sleep, staring out in space, not seeing doe sneak in, etc*
On both of the two poor examples of my previous shots barely, BARELY getting past the shoulder blade, neither deer went hardly anywhere. Less than 50 yards. Yes I got “lucky”, you bet!
I don’t foresee exactly the same results happening with my current Ashby Report influenced set up, at least on the “BARELY” reference. (THANKS, ED!!)
The recovery trail fact sheets are intended to give us this kind of information among others, but I simply am asking for Doc, David, and you others that have seen or recovered animals shot through the scapula to share any kind of information on if you have seen any kind of pattern yet on how these shots have effected the length of recovery, if at all.
VoodooOctober 23, 2009 at 1:32 pmPost count: 50
Last year on opening day, my brother shot a large doe through both shoulders, complete pass through on both scapulas, she went 60yds. before expiring, and the year before my buddy shot a 300# hog through both shoulders, again a complete pass through,the sow went only 20yds.
Ed AshbyMemberOctober 23, 2009 at 2:27 pmPost count: 816
Steve, I’ve had a FEW pass-through hits, shots that just zipped through the thorax, that resulted in the animal merely flinching, then resuming feeding until it collapsed. Now that’s a short trail! But those have been rather rare occurrances.
On the other hand, any shot that diables a nerve center or inhibits locomotin by disrupting the skeletal support system in some major way almost always results in an animal down very, very quickly. Every animal that I’ve taken out BOTH shouldes on (ball joints) have virtually dropped in their tracks, never to arise; none have struggled more than a very few yards. Take out the ball joint on ONE shoulder and they often drop at the shot, but are up quickly, but don’t usually go far, often dropping in sight, but sometimes making it 60 to 100 yards or so. Take out ONE ball joint of the hip and the distance to collapse has probably averaged 10 yards or so. Take out BOTH ball joints in the hips; down in their tracks.
When you get to scapular-flat hits, it depends a lot on how much damage is done to the skeletal support system, and how much penetration and damage your arrow creates post-breaching. Any damage to the scapula creates some locomotion instability, and that always helps IF you manage the shot. Because the traveling becomes more difficult the animal generally stops traveling sooner (after the initial flight). If your arrow has done decent damage post-breaching the animal will expire right there … if you don’t follow-up too soon, jumping the animal. Penetrate both scapulas and your arrow has done a hunge amount of damage.
Animal size has a noticable effect on scapular-flat hits. On modest-size big game it has more of a disabling effect than on larger sized game. Whenever the ball joints are taken out, the result is the same, regardless of aminal size. the difference comes in what it takes to break out the ball joint on a big critter!
There’s an old saying among the African hunters, a lot of whom use nothing but solid, none-expanding bullets that more or less punch a tiny hole through a lot of tissue, “An animal lives between its shoulders”. What they are implying is that even the tiny wound created by a non-expanding bullet is quickly lethal when it penetrates through both shoulders, passing through the major life-supporting organs located between them. That’s true for arrows too.
Steve Sr.October 23, 2009 at 3:20 pmPost count: 344
Great stuff, Ed.
I knew you would have information to add that I would never even dream up and have examples from experiences to share plus add more information on other hits.
Interesting examples to say the least!
Thanks once more!
Jason WesbrockMemberOctober 23, 2009 at 6:37 pmPost count: 762
My only experience with shoulders and archery equipment pertains to offside hits. I was taught to stay away from entrance side shoulder blades, and doing so has served me well. That being said, in every instance, I’ve broken trough those offside bones and gotten exit wounds.
Most deer I’ve shot either didn’t know they were hit, or trotted a short distance and fell over. Whenever I’ve hit hard bone (again, exit wound side) the animal ran off like a scalded ape. My average recovery distance on double-lung shot deer with 2-blade heads when no heavy bone was impacted is less than 50 yards. On deer where I’ve exited through heavy bone, my recovery distance is over 100 yards.
Steve Sr.October 24, 2009 at 12:43 pmPost count: 344
Shots also penetrating bone on exit should be included in this fact finding effort and appreciate your input on your experiences.
I believe the majority of us were “taught to stay away from bones” with archery equipment. Anyone wishing to do so can do a “google” search and read advice on such. It’s all over the web. Each and every time note that the REASON that has been mostly taught is the lack of consistant penetration.
I offer this not in an argument but for just as I said, those interested can look and find such easily. Those interested will also not have to go far to find shots that have done exactly that and have penetrated heavy bone cleanly producing a well harvested game animal.
Such constant examples are relatively new and this thread is for information about the recovery distances of those successfully having done so. A great deal of discussion and information is available here on getting superior penetration along with other things, and this perhaps can be an “addendum” sharing examples of those (not saying all do or need to) penetrating heavier bones as far as what the resulting shot produced in recovery distance alone.
I too have had deer go back to feeding on a broadside double lunger but have also had a few and have tracked numerous that have took off for the wild blue yonder.
The info on what you have experienced on shots exiting through bone are appeciated.
Maybe some others have experienced the same as well?
Again, this is not a “if you should or shouldnt” thread. EACH makes that decision and lives with results, pro or con.
The soul intention of this thread is to receive more information on how such shots have effected recovery distances, with examples backing those facts.
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