Home Forums Friends of FOC Question For Troy & Dr. ED?

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    • smiley1
      Member
      Post count: 102

      I have read everything I could find on UEFOC arrows including Dr. Ashby’s reports and threads on this topic. I just finished building a 33% UEFOC 650+ grain arrow for a bear hunt I am going on in June. My bow is an A&H longbow 56# @ 28″. My actual draw length is 25.5 inches so I am shooting 48.5lbs. I built out the shelf and followed Troy’s tuning directions that are on Tuffheads website. I spent a considerable amount of time testing and tuning different shafts. My results were surprising to me because from everything I have read I’m underspined. My finished arrow is a Victory VAP 500 cut at 27.5 inches with a 92 grain stainless outsert, 125grain steel adapter, 225 grain Tuffhead broadhead & 2.5 inch A & A 4 fletch. It seems to me that my short drawlength and the fact carbon gets very stiff when cut this short is why I get away with such a weak spine!! I’m wondering am I just an exception to the standard rule of spine? I might add that when I shot “normal cedar FOC arrows” I always seemed to be on the light side of the spine charts. I guess what I’m asking is; can it be true & possible that a 500 deflection shaft can handle that much weight up front? I also shot this arrow with 225grain field points into trees to make sure the outsert & shaft could handle that much force and it can–absolutely no damage except to the oak tree!!! Very curious as to others thoughts on this? Thanks

    • Ed Ashby
      Member
      Post count: 816

      There are a lot of variables that affect the tuning of the EFOC/UEFOC arrows. The short answer is, “Yes” you can have what seems a very weak “static spine” shaft tune correctly with an EFOC or UEFOC arrow. I have one HH 85# longbow that tuned with a 45 to 60 spine CE shaft; with 190 grain BH, 125 gr. Steel adaptor, 100 gr. Brass insert and 75 grain Internal Footing.

      Short draw is one factor; especially if the shaft tuned at a short length too. I also have a fairly short draw; 27″, and that particular arrow for that 85# bow tuned at just barely long enough for my draw length. Carbon shafts increase in relative stiffness at a pretty rapid weight as the length is decreased and that too is a factor. The length of the ‘flex section’ of the shaft is another. Use of either internal or external footing also shorten the shaft’s ‘flex length’, increasing dynamic spine.

      The degree of center shot to which the bow is cut is a factor. The closer to true center shot the bow the stiffer the dynamic spine required. Conversely, the farter from center shot the bow is the weaker the dynamic spine of the shaft required to tune properly.

      I also believe that there is a different ‘flex pattern’ during paradox with the EFOC/UEFOC arrow. This is something I wish someone with access to a high speed camera would investigate. From impact shot videos I do know that the EFOC/UEFOC arrows show a different ‘flex pattern’ on impact; compared to Normal/High FOC arrows. This is one factor contributing to the increased penetration.

      Hope that helps.

      Ed

    • smiley1
      Member
      Member
      Post count: 102

      Thanks Dr. Ed. It’s good to know you have gotten a weaker spined arrow to bare shaft on an EFOC arrow. I did spend a few weeks tuning different shafts and just found it odd that the best shaft I found had such a light spine. It also seemed that when carbon shafts are cut shorter than 28″ they get very stiff. I guess most people have longer draw lengths therefore never get to test shafts shorter than 29 – 30 inches. I also found if I left a stiffer spine long they would bare shaft good for me. I just don’t like 4 inches of shaft & 3 inches of broadhead hanging off my shelf. AS you mentioned before; building out the riser seemed to make it easier to tune a shaft. Thanks

    • Troy Breeding
      Post count: 994

      Draw lengths have their plusses and minuses in both directions.

      I used to say fellows with short draws had it made since they didn’t need so much spine. But, then again they had it bad since every inch of draw lenght over 28″ is like increasing their bow weight by 5#, or something along that line.

      Then, when I got into the EFOC and UEFOC arrows I thought short draws were a big drawback. However, after spending hours and hours tuning different arrows I’ve come to find out that longer draws can sometimes be a pain. Try to find a shaft stiff enough, yet light enough in grains per inch to prevent shooting a 1000 grain arrow. It’s hard to do.

      Simply put,,,, keep at it until you find what works best for you and be glad you found it.

      Troy

    • Vintage Archer
      Member
      Post count: 276

      SMILEY Great information hope you got your order in enough time to experiment before your bear hunt. Good hunting!

      Your mention of A&A fletching has prompted me to add my thoughts.

      Ed, again you are proven right!!!! Since your seminar at P & Y on FOC you got me tinkering again . Not that I doubt you but you know “trust and verify”.:D

      I thought I had a go to arrow that I was completely satisfied with but you got me thinking about feathers and their effects on FOC. That paper clip demonstration really impressed me.( For those that have not seen this demonstration by adding and subtracting paper clips for weight to the arrow tip and trailing end Dr Ashby is able to demonstrate how weight distribution effects FOC) .

      I have always used 5.5 parabolic feathers and had not bought into the” teeny weenie “ feather concept until now. (this what you call coming out of the stone age ):oops:

      My “go to” arrow is a Heritage 250 at 29.5 total length… 100 grain insert …75 grain grade 5 titanium adaptor….300 grain TuffHead…..and 2 inch external aluminum footing @ 25 grains for a total weight up front of 500 grains.

      The total arrow weight is 789 grains with the 5.5 inch feathers…..The balance point for FOC is 5.5 inches from front of arrow. The AMO method of calculating FOC shows 31.00 % I was really happy with this.

      My eyes and mind were really opened by your discussion of the A & A fletch. (what is the saying “”the mind is like a parachute it is only good if it opens” ) I REPLACED THE 5.5 FEATHERS WITH 2” A & A FLETCH WHICH CHANGED THE BALANCE POINT OF THE ARROW TO 5’’ A WHOLE ½ INCH REDUCTION IN LENGTH FROM BALANCE TO ARROW TIP AND AN INCREASE IN UEFOC TO 33 %. THAT WAS AN EASY 2 % INCREASE . My new total arrow weight is 776 grains. I shoot a 55 lb. longbow. I am becoming a true believer.:D

      I still have to shoot the arrow with a broadhead under different wind conditions,as you suggest,to make sure the arrow stabilizes . The bare shat shoots almost perfectly without feathers under calm conditions (Thanks Troy for the easy to follow instructions ):idea: so I am now becoming enthusiastic about A & A FLETCHING especially as I can see the results in increased FOC.

      DR.ED those years you spent in the bush experimenting and the time you dedicated to documenting the results of your tests are benefiting more and more archers every day. THANK YOU

    • Ed Ashby
      Member
      Post count: 816

      Stop it. You’re going to make me blush.

    • smiley1
      Member
      Member
      Post count: 102

      Joe, I couldn’t agree more about Dr. Ed’s hard work!!!!! Maybe more people will come out of the stone age and realize just how much they can benefit from all of his research. I got my order last Thursday.

      Thanks

    • Troy Breeding
      Post count: 994

      smiley1 wrote: Joe, I couldn’t agree more about Dr. Ed’s hard work!!!!! Maybe more people will come out of the stone age and realize just how much they can benefit from all of his research. I got my order last Thursday.

      Thanks

      I agree 100 fold!!!:D

    • kingwouldbe
      Member
      Post count: 244

      I don’t-know about all this UEFOC stuff, sounds like you think you can sail around the earth….. don’t you know the earth is flat… it’s always been flat…. you will FALE if you try and sail around the earth, no one has ever done it before…..why cant you just do what your fathers, father has always done….. it has always worked, why try and change what’s worked for ever….. etc.

      Sounds silly now, because most of us have been around the earth, yet there was a time that it was 100% rejected.

      60# bow, Tuffhead 225, 100gn. steal adaptor,2″ 2117, 40gn. insert, 29″ GT300, total arrow weight 630, 28% EFOC, 4×2 A&A fletch, shot was about 10 yards on the ground, right into the shield, got an exit, but I WANT A TOTAL ARROW PASSTHROUGH.

      Must keep working on set up…..lol

      attached file
    • David Petersen
      Member
      Post count: 2749

      Hey King, there you go again thinking outside the box. That will get you in trouble every time.

      My tip for improving pass-through odds: shoot smaller hogs that aren’t so far from one side to another. That’s how gramps always did it! 😆

    • Troy Breeding
      Post count: 994

      David Petersen wrote: Hey King, there you go again thinking outside the box. That will get you in trouble every time.

      My tip for improving pass-through odds: shoot smaller hogs that aren’t so far from one side to another. That’s how gramps always did it! 😆

      ROTFLMBAO!!!

      Now, I needed that commit. Been one of those days and a good chuckle brings everything back in line.:D

      Troy

    • Vintage Archer
      Member
      Post count: 276

      King, good to see you are still in the hog busines:lol:

      Nice picture congratulations!

      Great results from that puny arrow you are shooting:D As good as your release is you could take the feathers off and get up into EUFOC 😆 May be get the arrow weight up over 650. Didn’t Ed teach you any thing:lol:

    • Ed Ashby
      Member
      Post count: 816

      David Petersen wrote: My tip for improving pass-through odds: shoot smaller hogs that aren’t so far from one side to another. That’s how gramps always did it! 😆

    • kingwouldbe
      Member
      Post count: 244

      oh’ Dave, I’m out side the box by a long ways, I been playing with so many different set ups I cant keep track, got to start writing this stuff down, cus I will change it, and forget where I was, and start over.

      Joe, I been playing with 55#, 58# 60# & 67# bows with 450, 600, 630, 680, 700, 730 & 800 grain arrows with maxed out EFOC of about 32%

      I have to confess the 800’rds out of a tree stand are like smoke with a point, ZERO noise, nothing, nata. I like.

      However, 800s down range to far and she starts to rainbow through the sky….lol, but for up close she is the bomb, I can hit out to 40-45 yards.

      I think Ron over @ KME has drank the Kool-Aid, he said something about 40% UEFOC, with a 750 grain arrow, have to call him back.

      Hey Doc, & Troy, cant seem to get my bare shafts to fly…………lol

      attached file
    • kingwouldbe
      Member
      Post count: 244

      I like this right now, Tuffhead 300 with 100gr steel adaptor, 4″ of 2117, 4″ rap & 4×2 A&A flitch, 730grain total arrow.

      attached file
    • Troy Breeding
      Post count: 994

      kingwouldbe wrote: oh’ Dave, I’m out side the box by a long ways, I been playing with so many different set ups I cant keep track, got to start writing this stuff down, cus I will change it, and forget where I was, and start over.

      Joe, I been playing with 55#, 58# 60# & 67# bows with 450, 600, 630, 680, 700, 730 & 800 grain arrows with maxed out EFOC of about 32%

      I have to confess the 800’rds out of a tree stand are like smoke with a point, ZERO noise, nothing, nata. I like.

      However, 800s down range to far and she starts to rainbow through the sky….lol, but for up close she is the bomb, I can hit out to 40-45 yards.

      I think Ron over @ KME has drank the Kool-Aid, he said something about 40% UEFOC, with a 750 grain arrow, have to call him back.

      Hey Doc, & Troy, cant seem to get my bare shafts to fly…………lol

      David,

      I see what your talking about. Can’t say for sure which shaft is off due to the angle of the pic, but it looks like the points are just about in the same spot. However, the nocks are just not there.:D

      Might need to work on that release alittle more. LOL!!!

      Troy

    • sharpster
      Post count: 91

      kingwouldbe wrote: I think Ron over @ KME has drank the Kool-Aid, he said something about 40% UEFOC, with a 750 grain arrow, have to call him back.

      Heck yea, I drank the kool aid a long time ago. Now I’m swimming in it! Yes I’m getting very high FOC levels in a variety of shafts. That’s actually been the fairly easy part… Now I’m pullin’ my hair out trying to disect the paradox inch by inch, and milli-second by milli-second in order to really understand what’s going on with the shaft from the moment we drop the string till the shaft leaves the bow.

      Ron

    • smiley1
      Member
      Member
      Post count: 102

      Just want to say THANKS to all of you guys!!! If I can’t be out hunting, experimenting with different arrow setups sure is fun and very educational. Hey Dave- I think the box is getting a little bigger-the other day at the local archery shoot I overheard some wheelie guys talking about hunting with heavy arrows and 2 blade cut on contact broadheads. If they only knew????

    • Vintage Archer
      Member
      Post count: 276

      kingwouldbe wrote: oh’ Dave, I’m out side the box by a long ways, I been playing with so many different set ups I cant keep track, got to start writing this stuff down, cus I will change it, and forget where I was, and start over.

      Joe, I been playing with 55#, 58# 60# & 67# bows with 450, 600, 630, 680, 700, 730 & 800 grain arrows with maxed out EFOC of about 32%

      I have to confess the 800’rds out of a tree stand are like smoke with a point, ZERO noise, nothing, nata. I like.

      However, 800s down range to far and she starts to rainbow through the sky….lol, but for up close she is the bomb, I can hit out to 40-45 yards.

      I think Ron over @ KME has drank the Kool-Aid, he said something about 40% UEFOC, with a 750 grain arrow, have to call him back.

      Hey Doc, & Troy, cant seem to get my bare shafts to fly…………lol

      KINGYou have to visit this site every once in a while just to get grounded. No where else does a person have to put up with so much harassment.:D

      We have discussed your lighter set up before. I am just jealous because I can’t hit the barn beyond 25 yards.:lol:

      Ron has turned into a mad scientist he doing things with arrows I could only dream about.:D

    • kingwouldbe
      Member
      Post count: 244

      Really for the life of me, I can’t understand the poor folk who refuse to try any of Doc. Ashby’s finding, yet say they don’t believe his finding…. say what 😯

      I have always wanted more penetration, and as Howard Hill said, “it’s what matters most when it comes to killing stuff” with out penetration there is no cutting of the vitals.

      I got stuck in, it’s always worked mind set, until I started to read Doc Ashby’s study’s, and it really got me thinking, so I started to try some of the things he was talking about, what I realized was, it’s not ONE thing, but several things you can do to increase penetration.

      Doc through down the gantlet and posed the question, ” what if you could shoot an arrow through the pelvis girdle and reach the vitals consistently “

      I thought “WOW” that’s what I’ve been looking for.

      Doing most of my hunting on the ground puts you in a lot of bad shot angle with traditional hunting tackle, you don’t always have the luxury of waiting for them to turn broadside, Just being there, is just not good enough for me, I want some meat, my goal is a kill, not a bow hike.

      As I have been testing the edges of the “BOX” with a set up designed to get the maximum amount of penetration possible, it allows me to take a lot more creative angles into the vitals.

      Yes, the shortest way to the vitals is the broadside shot, and the longest would be through the hip, most set up’s are not capable of reaching the vitals from anything other than a slight quartering away angle.

      I am not recommending you try this shot angle, until you have proved it on a dead animal.

      Some would say that’s an un ethical shot angle, I don’t think so, what’s un ethical, is going afield with equipment on the vary edge of the capability to kill an animal quickly, one that is the minimum amount one could use, as the results set you up for a wounded and lost animal.

      If you hunt more than once or twice, something will eventually happen, missed your spot, animal moved, hit a twig, etc, etc, etc.

      If the goal is to “get it in the truck” are you better served with more penetration or less ? what if no matter what you hit, your arrow blows through it ?, leg bone, shoulder bone, hip socket, spine, etc, now your talking about lethality.

      And guess what, you can still shot them through the chest broadside.

    • Ed Ashby
      Member
      Post count: 816

      kingwouldbe wrote: … what’s un ethical, is going afield with equipment on the vary edge of the capability to kill an animal quickly, one that is the minimum amount one could use, as the results set you up for a wounded and lost animal.

      If you hunt more than once or twice, something will eventually happen, missed your spot, animal moved, hit a twig, etc, etc, etc.

      If the goal is to “get it in the truck” are you better served with more penetration or less ? what if no matter what you hit, your arrow blows through it ?, leg bone, shoulder bone, hip socket, spine, etc, now your talking about lethality.

      And guess what, you can still shot them through the chest broadside.

      Well said, King. In bowhunting there’s no such thing as overkill.

      Ed

    • Troy Breeding
      Post count: 994

      Very well stated David!!!! Back that up with the last statemant by Ed and you would have to be pretty thick between the ears not to understand how to get the best final results.

      Troy

    • Vintage Archer
      Member
      Post count: 276

      [quote=kingwouldbe]I like this right now, Tuffhead 300 with 100gr steel adaptor, 4″ of 2117, 4″ rap & 4×2 A&A flitch, 730grain total arrow.[/quote[b]

      KING[/b] What brand and spine is the shaft. I am trying to compile stats on different shafts and complete set ups.I have calls from archers who want to switch to FOC arrows but do not know where to start. This information sometimes helps as a starting point.

      One time I thought about getting arrow shaft test kits. Troy helped me trying to get set up. The original purchase of arrows to make kits was almost four thousand dollars. I figured I could not cover the complete spectrum and would not have the kit some one wanted . (LIke shoes the store never has the right size) That ,cost and to many other things to do killed that idea:D Collecting arrow specs is easier and cheaper.:lol:

    • James HarveyJames Harvey
      Member
      Post count: 1130

      Joe that is a great idea. Perhaps you could start a thread in here asking people for their set ups. I’d love to see the list of great arrows that would be made by members of this site!

      Jim

    • kingwouldbe
      Member
      Post count: 244

      Joe, I’m shooting Gt Estrada ultra light 300, however I spoke with Ron @ KME and it looks like we might be turning another corner as fare as UEFOC arrow.

      I also failed to give credit for my statement that the ” goal is to get it in the truck ” which I pirated from Ron…..lol

    • Vintage Archer
      Member
      Post count: 276

      ausjim wrote: Joe that is a great idea. Perhaps you could start a thread in here asking people for their set ups. I’d love to see the list of great arrows that would be made by members of this site!

      Jim

      JIM Thanks, I have to give it some thought….Thinking of a set of questions or a form that could be copied and pasted on to the next reply. I am open to ideas on how to do it. Like you I think it would be referenced often.

      Would need type of bow recurve or longbow

      Bow weight

      Archers draw length

      Type of arrow ..wood ,al. Or carbon

      Brand of arrow

      Spine of arrow

      Length of shaft

      Length and height of feather

      Weight of arrow insert

      Weight of adaptor

      Weight of point

      Total weight of arrow

      AMO calculated percent of FOC

      I am sure there is other information that is needed that I left out.

    • jpcarlson
      Member
      Post count: 218

      Hey guys, I have been using the Easton Axis Nano shafts and having good results. They are really strong and you can go skinny on your setup. I will have to look at mine again to tell you what they are but here is my set up.

      Easton Axis Nano’s, think they are the 400’s, at 29.5″

      75 gr brass HIT insert

      125 gr steel adaptor

      300 gr Tuffhead

      4 2.5 A&A fletchings

      Used acetone to remove the decal wrap off the back half of the shapt.

      UEFOC about 32%

      Shoots like a raptor and stings like a rhino!

      Jans

    • sharpster
      Post count: 91

      kingwouldbe wrote: Joe, I’m shooting Gt Estrada ultra light 300, however I spoke with Ron @ KME and it looks like we might be turning another corner as fare as UEFOC arrow.

      I also failed to give credit for my statement that the ” goal is to get it in the truck ” which I pirated from Ron…..lol

      Well, not sure about turning another corner but I have been experimenting pretty extensively with varying point weights and shaft lengths and everything is leading me to re-think the conventional wisdom of “extra stiff spine required” for UHFOC arrows under 700 grains in total arrow weight. Not 100% sure yet but I don’t think this is quite as solidly set in stone as we first thought.

      Ron

    • sharpster
      Post count: 91

      To expound a bit, Smiley1’s initial post reinforces the results I’m seeing. On paper he’s underspined yet the arrows are flying great. As he said, he did cut the shafts to 27.5″ which stiffens them up a bit but I’m guessing they would still fly very well from his bow with a longer draw and more point weight. Like I said in my previous post, I’m still experimenting but I’m beginning to believe that the dynamic spine of carbon shafts tends to remain far more static with varying point weights and shaft lengths than we automatically assume. Certainly carbon shafts tolerate far greater variances in point weight and shaft lengths than wood or aluminum shafts of similar spine. The question that remains to be answered is how much more…

      Ron

    • Bruce Smithhammer
      Post count: 2514

      Sharpster wrote: To expound a bit, Smiley1’s initial post reinforces the results I’m seeing. On paper he’s underspined yet the arrows are flying great. As he said, he did cut the shafts to 27.5″ which stiffens them up a bit but I’m guessing they would still fly very well from his bow with a longer draw and more point weight. Like I said in my previous post, I’m still experimenting but I’m beginning to believe that the dynamic spine of carbon shafts tends to remain far more static with varying point weights and shaft lengths than we automatically assume. Certainly carbon shafts tolerate far greater variances in point weight and shaft lengths than wood or aluminum shafts of similar spine. The question that remains to be answered is how much more…

      Ron

      Very interesting Ron. I’ve wondered about that as well, just based on my own minimal experimenting with various point weights. I’d be curious to hear what others think.

      I also wonder if the increased/more efficient recovery from paradox observed in EFOC arrows might have something to do with this higher tolerance as well? In other words, dynamic spine remains more static across a wider range of point weights simply because of more efficient recovery and transfer of energy.

    • smiley1
      Member
      Member
      Post count: 102

      VERY interesting to say the least. Ron, I have found that small changes in point weight and arrow length(once I am very close to having perfect flight) did not effect bare-shaft flight as much for me as it has for others. Maybe my form, release and other factors are not as consistent as other shooters. Whatever the reason I totally agree that this not true with other arrow materials such as wood and aluminum. Carbon definitely makes things possible that otherwise wouldn’t be possible. Until I started experimenting myself I would have said there is no way 2″ fletching would stabilize an arrow with a 350+ grain broadhead. With that being said, further experimenting by Ashby followers I believe will reveal more and more interesting results that will be of great importance for anyone wanting to increase FOC and shoot a more lethal arrow!!!

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