Seth HaleMemberDecember 14, 2020 at 11:48 amPost count: 7
Newer to traditional archery. I’m shoot a 55@28 long bow pulling about 31” or slightly less. My local shops no very little to nothing about traditional archery. I recently purchased some black eagle instinct 350 spine (100g outsert) full length and some vintage 350 spine (75g weight & 42g insert). This put them weighing roughly the same I’ve tipped them with 190g Simmons treeshark. As I said very new to traditional archery so unsure of this setup. I did notice some shelf bounce, but not every shot assuming this was due to my form. Worried I should have went with 400 spine and just looking for suggestions and thoughts. Thanks!
Raymond CoffmanModeratorDecember 15, 2020 at 10:49 pmPost count: 1033
Welcome to the forum and the Traditional Archery Journey…
According to the charts ( Easton) your set up sounds ok. The proof is in the shooting. If your arrows are flying straight ( mostly- glitch in form now and then notwithstanding) and where your looking— your good to go. Most of the arrow vendors will sell you a test kit ( a few arrows in different spine) to find what works best for your bow and shooting technique . I highly recommend TJ Conrad’s book the Traditional Bowhunters Handbook. A definitive work on the subject. With excellent chapters on set up , tuning etc. I reference mine on a regular basis.
When you are starting out and still working to perfect your shooting skills/ form, tuning can be a bit problematic. If there is a club nearby or some traditional archers you can link up with ( thru your local archery shoppe), can help flatten the learning curve. If you scroll down the page you will see club and mentor listing.
Scout aka Ray
Raymond CoffmanModeratorDecember 16, 2020 at 8:40 amPost count: 1033
Glad to have you with us. I’ve enjoyed trad archery all my life . Its challenging but a lot of fun. I find it can be therapeutic for me…
Your bow is a great weight for hunting, but more than we recommend for learning to shoot trad. If you are doing OK fine …but… If you have the funds and inclination, dropping down into a bow in the low 40s would considerably enhance your ability to perfect your form more easily/quickly .
Feel free to stop in here with more questions, thoughts , and how your progressing…
Glad to have you aboard
Scout aka Ray
Raymond CoffmanModeratorDecember 16, 2020 at 12:59 pmPost count: 1033
If the arrow is flying straight and true you are good. Tuning is an art of course and quite variable , depending on bow – arrow type – shooting style. Your draw is much longer than mine but here is what I shoot in a similar ( sort of )weight bow. Centaur R/D ( short 54″) longbow 53lbs @ 26″.
28 1/2″ Easton axis 400 ( 9.0 gpi) arrow with 400grs up front – 3 5″ fletch ( parabolic) 675gr total arrow weight. ( this is an efoc arrow which not everyone is interested in ). I also tried 500/340 to get here. The shaft selector Calculator says I should use 600 — BUT the selector is calibrated for only 100 gr up front — what you end up with in an arrow is quite variable….depending on what you want it to do.
Soo—- I hesitate putting this up because it can get complicated ( read confusing )and is easy to get obsessed with ” getting perfect tune”. I have and still do 😄 . But it is important ( especially if you hunt) to get the best arrow flight / accuracy that one can .
The above is not a recommendation for you / your bow – just an example. It is never a bad idea to try some different spine weights, especially if your draw is a lot longer or shorter than 28″ or end up at one of the arrow chart bow weight break over points. Therefore you might want to get some 400s (3 – test kit)and see how they compare ….
Scout aka Ray
Seth HaleMemberMemberDecember 16, 2020 at 6:55 pmPost count: 7
Thanks! My biggest concern was the shelf bounce, but this did not occur with every shoot. I assume this was/is due to form or grip. If when I shot there was no shelf bounce then the flight seemed great, but if there is shelf bounce it reflected in poor flight obviously.
I read this could be due to nock height, stiff arrows, or form. I never noticed the shelf contact with previous aluminum arrows so I may try some 400 spine just to check.
Most of my local bow shops know nothing of traditional archery, the one that does would not even entertain me wanting to go with carbon arrows (aluminum only).
Thanks again for help!
Raymond CoffmanModeratorDecember 17, 2020 at 9:06 amPost count: 1033
What are the specs on your bow? ( length- style of longbow)
As you know bad form can cause numerous issues. However “the bounce” could still be a spine problem that is just a bit off. In other words with perfect form you mitigate the bounce. What was the spine of the aluminum arrows ? Try some 400s …
You could also adjust your brace height and see if that helps ( twist the bowstring).
I am not surprised about that bowshop and aluminum shafts. Most die hard trad folks only shoot woodies…haha. in my youth and most of us who started in the late 60s shot wood, but we also shot a lot of aluminum. I shoot all 3, but mostly wood and some carbon ( efoc experiments)
Maybe Richard will hop in here — I think he shoots all three
Scout aka Ray
Seth HaleMemberMemberDecember 17, 2020 at 10:04 amPost count: 7
My bow is a MADDOG custom Prairie predator Longbow 57″ 55lbs @ 28” my draw is between 30-31” the builder stated his bow was very close center cut.
I am thinking about ordering some 400 spine arrows and checking those. I was really interested in shooting wood, but felt they would be even more confusing. I have read so much about arrows high FOC vs overall weight etc. I was worried it would be even harder to get figured out maybe I was wrong lol.
I will have to look when I get back for the spine of aluminum arrows. I believe all three times I’ve bought aluminum arrows from them they suggested different spine. Which is why I tried my own way, and with hopes to be able to do more and more or my archery setup on my own.
richard roopMemberDecember 17, 2020 at 2:11 pmPost count: 250
I try to keep all of my bows 60# / 28″. I’ve found that the numbers written on the bow are NOT carved in stone. I have a Bear 48 Magnum marked 60 that feels about 45#s and shoots 1916’s like lasers.
My ‘go to’ arrow shaft is the eBay 2213. 5″ helical three fletch, 125 grain point w/40 grain insert. Nothing extreme but very versatile. Simple is good, there-fore extremely simple must be extremely good.
You might try getting a few full length 2213s and cutting them down a bit at a time to find the sweet spot.
Note;……… I like tuning bow or arrow when fully warmed up but not overly tired over a couple of days. Trying to tune something on a day that your shooting is ‘off’ can lead to madness, strong drink and the urge to take up flower pressing.
Raymond CoffmanModeratorDecember 18, 2020 at 11:45 amPost count: 1033
Roger all your last. Nice bow. The shorter, strong bows are a little tougher to shoot well…as you know …
I wouldn’t worry about / get into efoc at this time. Better to hone trad shooting form / skills with your current or similar arrow type. I would try the 400s.
Richards ” note” is spot on — I also only tune when I am “on” and in good humor/ attitude….
Scout aka Ray
richard roopMemberDecember 18, 2020 at 4:43 pmPost count: 250
If you can stand one more tuning suggestion……………
Whatever shaft you decide to work with; 400s ………….. 2213s ……………. whatever;
Get about three or four of them and cut one down by 1/4″ to try. If the indications are that you need to cut down some more, pick a new shaft and cut it down by 1/2″. If you need to adjust some more, cut a third shaft down by 3/4″ and so forth. This way you can go back and confirm tomorrow what you decided today. Once you get close, say your draw length is 30″ you can end up with test arrows 29 3/4 “, 30″ and 30 1/4” . There should be a sweet spot there somewhere. Then, if you want to play with different point weights, you’ve got ready to go shafts.
Soapbox rant to follow alert; ……………………. In the over-all scheme of things, arrows are the cheapest thing we deal with. After bows, gas, tournament registration fees, hunting licenses, boots, camo, etc. etc. arrows are chump change. Whatever the target, bull elk, 3d foam or a stump on the next hillside, it comes down to the arrow. Never be afraid to buy them, shoot them and bang them up or lose them. When you can launch a couple of field points, a couple of blunts and a couple of broadheads out 40 or 50 yards and have them all group together, confidence is high and life is really good.
Seth HaleMemberMemberDecember 18, 2020 at 5:53 pmPost count: 7
Will definitely be trying anything that is suggested. I started with the black eagles as I they were suggested from a guy that shots long bow (new as well) he said he had great luck. They way I view arrows is the more the merrier. Will to try anything.
Not sure how accurate this is, but these are my two current arrow set up
Black eagle vintage- full length (34”) 42g insert with 75g weight. Total weight 659g
GPP 10, FOC 21.9%, est. speed 182.4, ft/lbs 42.9
Black eagle instinct- full length (34”) 100g outsert , total weight 669g, GPP 10.2, FOC 20.3%, est speed 182.8, ft/lbs 49.6
These are off of 3 River not sure how accurate just an idea was trying to get both total weights as close to get hopefully similar drop for easier grouping between two. Thoughts, concerns, or anything about these #’s
richard roopMemberDecember 19, 2020 at 8:37 pmPost count: 250
One more thing to consider when you’re setting up a bow; …………… What-ya gonna use it for ????
If you’re sitting a tree stand over a rub line at 15 yards you’re going to sacrifice a lot of speed to get the exit wound for a better blood trail. On the other hand, if you’re hunting antelope or jackrabbits out on the open desert you’ll likely want a much flatter shooting set-up. Same with tournament shooting; American Round is going to be 60/50/40 yards. Most 3d shoots are 30 & under. NFAA field round is a little bit of everything.
No sense in making this simple ……………………….. Where’s the fun in that ????
Seth HaleMemberMemberDecember 19, 2020 at 10:41 pmPost count: 7
I am a primarily a whitetail hunter/hog hunter that is the main purpose. My set up try to keep me 15ish yards for hunting mainly for the fact I am not confident pushing out past 20+ yards. I’ve not hunted yet this year with my long bow due to the fact I’m unsure/not confident with the arrows and it is a mind game now.
richard roopMemberDecember 20, 2020 at 5:46 amPost count: 250
Gotta love hunting feral pigs !!!!
The next time you go out to practice you might try this; Put a paper plate on the bales and shoot one from 5 yards. If you hit, move back to 10 yards, again, one shot. If that hits, move back to 15 for one shot. Continue moving back until you put one out of the plate. That’s the distance to shoot from, working on form. Then, before you finish up for the day, do it over again but keep moving back until you run out of arrows or range. Shooting longer distances will show up flaws in form (hopefully) before they become bad habits.
Raymond CoffmanModeratorDecember 21, 2020 at 7:13 amPost count: 1033
Did someone mention PIGS! Love hunting feral hogs….
Your arrow specs sound good – how are they shooting ? If you need them stiffer you can do as Richard mentioned, cut them back in increments and see if you get better flight.
The paper plate/ bowl practice/test is a good one . I use it myself . The 9- 8 1/2″ plates / bowl are the ones I use . I try to practice to hold this easily to 20yds. If in steady practice I can stretch it to 25 ( start getting edgers there. I don’t shoot plates every time , just use it as a test periodically to see how iam doing…. 15yds is my preference to shoot at game , setup blinds for this range ….
Scout aka Ray
Seth HaleMemberMemberDecember 21, 2020 at 9:03 amPost count: 7
I feel they are shoot good, but as mentioned was more concerned about shelf bounce. I assumed went a little stiff or it was form issue since it was no a constant thing.
My bow has such a small shelf my chubby fingers sometimes get equal or slightly above the shelf. I felt it after the first few shots and it was definitely popping off the finger pretty bad. Do I mad an adjustment to my grip, but would every now and then get some tail kick with arrow but others flew like lasers.
I will definitely try the plate today.
Thanks again for everyone’s help/suggestions!
Raymond CoffmanModeratorDecember 21, 2020 at 5:02 pmPost count: 1033
You could also try more padding on the shelf to raise it slightly , see if that helps with the bounce. I have used a rubber / leather ” band” around the grip just below the shelf to give my hand an index so as not to crowd it and interfere with the arrow .
Scout aka Ray
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