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    • David Petersen
      Member
      Post count: 2749

      The below link is to a news story about legislation introduced in Illinois to ban any new “captive hunting facilities.” A primary sponsor is HSUS. Thus, here we/hunters are presented with one of the more subtle challenges to our intellect and feelings and biases as individuals as well as hunters. To paraphrase the old saying … if you allow the trash in your yard to become a public nuisance and refuse to clean it up yourself, don’t be surprised when someone else, maybe a neighbor you don’t like, comes along to clean it up for you.

      The problem, the challenge, to this situation among many of us is that our fear and thus hatred of HSUS is so strong — these people have become so deeply demonized in our collective and individual minds — that even when they do something that in the big picture will help hunting, some of us would rather keep having to smell the stench of our own garbage than to see it cleaned up by “the enemy.” I think many here well know my feelings about canned killing — cowardly execution, having naught to do with real hunting, a spit in the face of the N. American Model, and a blight on our very existence — yet I’m not trying to influence anyone’s thinking to match my own. Rather, I’m just suggesting it might be a beneficial and refreshing exercise to read this article, think about the poll results (which I can’t imagine going the other way in any state or provience), and step beyond our instilled fears and instinctive biases in order to the issues through with open minds. From the critical standpoints of the nonhunting public’s imagage of hunting, and thus the future of hunting in N. America … as well as our own personal “look at ourselves in the mirror each morning” self-dignity, who is the real enemy here? Let’s keep the discussion to this specific issue, por favor.

      http://www.humanesociety.org/news/press_releases/2013/02/hb3118-ill-captive-hunting-022713.html

    • FallguyFallguy
      Member
      Post count: 317

      We just had our Bowhunter Ed class this past weekend and we always stress your point of, policing your own bad apples is preferable to letting someone else make those decisions for you. We need to get past the big tent theory and go with Quality over Quantity. We will never out number the 80% of the population that does not hunt so we need to make sure they approve of our behavior.

    • James HarveyJames Harvey
      Member
      Post count: 1130

      I agree these fools should be condemned for ‘hunting’ in such a manner and should be ridiculed/outcast/humiliated within hunting groups. I don’t really see what is inhumane about the practice though.

      Someone raises an animal in captivity with the intent and purpose of selective breeding and controlled killing. The only mechanical difference I see between that and farming animals for the meat market is the method of death, in this case a not so certain shot from a rifle. Forgot the ends, I’m just talking about the means, which is the only place where humane or inhumane comes into it, as most would agree the one does not justify the other.

      Is that point clear? Maybe if I reframe it as a question: So if you shot a captive animal and used its meat for food, skin for leather, bones for tools, how is that in any way a more humane treatment of the animal than if you shot it, cut its head off and put it on your wall? I would say the second guy in the question is a malicious idiot, but if he’s a good shot he has not been any less humane in his treatment of the animal.

      I hope I’m missing something, because I feel like I should be happy about this kind of ban. But I’m not.

    • WICanner
      Post count: 136

      I don’t like ‘canned hunts’. Never will, but I vote with my $$$. Most other people do too in WI. That’s why there are so few of those operations in existence. And I like HSUS even less. So I guess to me, it’s the lesser of two evils. If they wouldn’t call it ‘hunting’, would we care as long as the animal is put down cleanly?

    • Brennan Herr
      Member
      Post count: 403

      It would be nice to have this issue handled by hunters but money is the issue and usually drives what takes place. I agree with banning the hunting farms but I would like to see the banning of game farms period. I think the risk to wild populations by captive counter parts that escape can cause serious problems.

      However, I understand that there is not much different between wildlife farming and domestic (cows and such) farming. And more likly the wildlife in these farms are treated differently (for the better) then cows.

      In the end, for me, it comes down to perspective as a whole. Most find the unfair killing of a deer offensive but the slaughter house is fine as long as no one sees it. When this “canned hunting” is shown as what hunting is then it depics all hunting as the same even though it isn’t. Most people don’t see the difference between what the idiots do on the outdoor channel and what I do. Even though there is a giant gap in almost all aspects.

    • Jason Wesbrock
      Member
      Post count: 762

      Let’s clear up one important point here. The reason why these operations are still in existence in Illinois is because of antis getting in the way of our state’s bowhunting organization several years ago. On the heels of CWD being discovered in Illinois, we could have easily (or rather, more easily than today) had a captive cervid shooting preserve ban. My understanding is there was a bill set to be introduced until an anti-trapping group decided to throw their two cents into the mix. The end result was a bill that would have, for all intents and purposes, ended trapping in this state. Apparently it removed the distinction between shooting an animal confined in a pen from one caught in a trap.

      This isn’t a case of HSUS having to clean up trash that hunters refused to handle. This trash wouldn’t even exist today had their ilk stayed out of our way several years ago.

    • lyagooshka
      Post count: 600

      David Petersen wrote:

      …if you allow the trash in your yard to become a public nuisance and refuse to clean it up yourself, don’t be surprised when someone else, maybe a neighbor you don’t like, comes along to clean it up for you.

      …some of us would rather keep having to smell the stench of our own garbage than to see it cleaned up by “the enemy.”

      “look at ourselves in the mirror each morning” self-dignity, who is the real enemy here?

      Dave,

      I am very sorry, but I must humbly disagree with you on many of your points above. First, let me start with the cliché “One man’s trash is another man’s treasure”. Who made them, or anyone, the people who define what “trash” is or is not?

      Next, aside from the point above, your argument is held together by the assumption that every “canned hunt” is unethical, deer tied to a tree, type of operation. Again, I humbly disagree. Yes, there are plenty. I am not a fool (I think) but I really disagree with the “one broad stroke of the brush” mentality when dealing with anything, even the eco-terrorist people.

      My view of this type of “hunting” is what many say about killing. It is “harvesting”. I go to the store and buy ground beef. I always come home with beef (unless the forecast around here calls for ½” of snow, in which case the shelves are bare). What chance did the cow have? On the other hand, an animal in a “caged” hunt at least has some chance. Very little, but some. Why, as brennanherr stated above, is a slaughterhouse looked upon as being more acceptable than a preserve. If anything, giving a person the ability to do it themselves sounds more noble to me. If you take a life, chances are you will value that meat much more than if you “picked” it from a pretty little shelf in a nice, climate controlled store where nothing dies and everything is just peachy. IMHO, the word “caged” more accurately describes the livestock industry (in many cases, again, I am not trying to do the very thing I said I am against and paint cattle farming with one broad stroke) every bit as much as preserve hunting. So my question is what is the difference of going to the store / farm for my meat versus to the preserve?

      Now to another point. I couldn’t agree more with J.Wesbrock. Look at how the antis and politics ruin hunting and how they actually hurt the very animals they claim to protect.

      On that same note, the “cleaned up by your enemy” thing is (IMHO) too simplistic. I am not for whaling, but am very much for the Japanese fleets. They are HUNTING. No matter what loophole they use, the fact is, they only take up to a certain amount, they do not poach, and the fact that the meat winds up someone’s dinner plate simply means the entire animal is being put to good use. “Shoot only what you eat.” How many here have said the very same thing? If these pirates / terrorists (finally labeled accurately by the courts) win, how long until they are in the woods during hunting season? PETA is already trying to change the word fish to “sea kittens”. Dumb, I know, but how long until the deer become “land dolphins” and moose and elk “land whales”?

      Again, as stated by others, I let my $$$ cast my vote. I also see the “gated community” thing as an alternative that can keep the “slobs” out of the woods. Like the Blackbeard Island thread says, who would want to spend all that energy just to maybe get an 80# deer? Not a slob. Only someone who values the experience of the hunt and counts success as being blessed enough to even make it out there. Everything else is just gravy.

      I also feel it is a slippery slope. Ban this, what’s next? You might think that it’ll never happen, but once some precedence is set, who really knows? I am not advocating anything here. I am only cautioning against any knee-jerk reaction (we have had enough of those lately). I can make many parallels about hunting a preserve versus hunting in a desert over the only water for 100 miles. I can give reasons, make excuses, etc. Quite honestly, I don’t even know the USHS’s stance on hunting. Still, this is a time when maybe some extra regulation can go a long way. But the number one way to regulate is simply to let your $$$ speak for you.

      Again, all this is IMHO. I am not advocating anything. I also don’t believe that a preserve is “hunting”. I am happy with “harvesting” or the like. I know it’s a touchy subject. I do not mean this to offend anyone (PETA excluded). I am simply adding my 2¢. All comments welcome. No offence taken, I promise. Be well.

      Alex

      😕

    • Etter1
      Post count: 831

      I despise anybody that would kill an animal in a small enclosure and claim it was hunted, but I see it as another form of farming, albeit a disgusting form.

      At the same time, I feel it’s another slippery slope. Just like everything that has happened in California. There are now several states in the Pacific Northwest that have outlawed hound hunting. I have to believe that this was largely due to the fact that the rest of the hunting public (non-hound hunters) didn’t stand up and fight for their brothers and sisters.

      I don’t consider high fence operations hunting, but where does it end?

    • Bunyan Morris
      Member
      Post count: 135

      Etter1 wrote: I despise anybody that would kill an animal in a small enclosure and claim it was hunted, but I see it as another form of farming, albeit a disgusting form.

      At the same time, I feel it’s another slippery slope. Just like everything that has happened in California. There are now several states in the Pacific Northwest that have outlawed hound hunting. I have to believe that this was largely due to the fact that the rest of the hunting public (non-hound hunters) didn’t stand up and fight for their brothers and sisters.

      I don’t consider high fence operations hunting, but where does it end?

      Just think about that guy bragging to us about picking out exotic animals in an inclosure and asking his host, “How much for that one? Oh, that’s too much. What is the price for killing that?”

      This is is a practice hunting can survive without.

    • Etter1
      Post count: 831

      broadhead wrote: [quote=Etter1]I despise anybody that would kill an animal in a small enclosure and claim it was hunted, but I see it as another form of farming, albeit a disgusting form.

      At the same time, I feel it’s another slippery slope. Just like everything that has happened in California. There are now several states in the Pacific Northwest that have outlawed hound hunting. I have to believe that this was largely due to the fact that the rest of the hunting public (non-hound hunters) didn’t stand up and fight for their brothers and sisters.

      I don’t consider high fence operations hunting, but where does it end?

      Just think about that guy bragging to us about picking out exotic animals in an inclosure and asking his host, “How much for that one? Oh, that’s too much. What is the price for killing that?”

      This is is a practice hunting can survive without.

      Absolutely true!

      But so can we say the same things about guides who tree a mountain lion and then call the client to come in and kill it. Same as the deer in texas that gets sold on sight to the client at the feeder. Same as the antelope that comes to the same stock tank every day.

      These are all lines that we draw personally. We are under such scrutiny that I have to think we need a united front.

      I don’t own an AR15 but I don’t want the government to stop me from owning one.

    • garydavis
      Post count: 101

      I think that it important to note that the state of Illinois only restricted “new” captive hunting facilities. That sounds like the old split the baby method of appeasement. It would have been so much more impressive had they closed all existing facilities as well.

      I also think hell is much too pleasant a place for the purveyors of and participants in “confined hunting facilities” not to put too fine a point on it.

    • CareyE
      Member
      Post count: 111

      In terms of painting with a broad brush, the 80% do not distinguish the difference between what we do and that of the canned hunt crowd. We must do what we can to police our ranks or the 80% will, and take ALL of our hunting priviledges.

    • Col MikeCol Mike
      Member
      Post count: 910

      Dave–Web Mother–I just spent an hour responding with some great insight and got logged out:evil:

      Summary of my thoughts follow:

      1. IL ban on new game farms is good.

      2. Humane society is not the enemy and Peta is deserving of nothing but scorn.

      3. Education of non-hunters is key never pass up the opportunity– great organizations to help–BCH, TU, WTF, RGS, ( no not the nra).

      Oh well I tried–my fault–got to in-depth and I don’t type that quickly.

      Semper Fi

      Mike

    • lyagooshka
      Post count: 600

      Sir,

      (I know, “stop calling me sir”, sorry, habit 😳 ) I have actually had that happen before. I hit the “back” button and was able to recover it. But, there is another way, if I may be so bold as to suggest. If I find a particularly “juicy” thread (or any thread no-a-days), I open up Microsoft Word (after reading the thread) and start typing my reply. After I am done, I copy (not cut) and paste to the forum. I then add any smiley faces 😀 and hit “Save” (on TBM not Word). If something should happen, I can then just go back to the Word document and re-copy and paste (after I post the comment, I don’t bother to save the document). Word also has a nice feature in that it auto-saves every now and again, so even if your power goes out, you will be able to recover most of what you typed so long as it’s been long enough to get auto-saved. A final feature (and reason I use Word for pretty much all my posts) is the spell-checker feature. If I posted directly to the site, no one would be able to make out what the hey I’m talking about as I would probably misspell my own name. In school, my answer to every question on every spelling test was “F7” (command in Word to run the spell checker) 🙄 . Needless to say, I didn’t do well in that class. If it wasn’t for math and computers, I may not have made it through highschool. Anyway, I hope it helps. Be well.

      CPT Frog

      😀

    • Robin ConradsRobin Conrads
      Admin
      Post count: 904

      colmike wrote: Dave–Web Mother–I just spent an hour responding with some great insight and got logged out:evil:

      Summary of my thoughts follow:

      1. IL ban on new game farms is good.

      2. Humane society is not the enemy and Peta is deserving of nothing but scorn.

      3. Education of non-hunters is key never pass up the opportunity– great organizations to help–BCH, TU, WTF, RGS, ( no not the nra).

      Oh well I tried–my fault–got to in-depth and I don’t type that quickly.

      Semper Fi

      Mike

      Sorry Mike! 😳 Our system is set to log a member out after one hour of inactivity, and I can’t change that. I’m not sure if previewing the page counts as activity (it should). 😕 It used to be 20 minutes, which was a real pain in the a$$. Alex beat me to the solution(s); hit the back button a couple times after logging in, or saving in a Word or Text document. I’m sorry we missed the longer version of your great insight.

    • Col MikeCol Mike
      Member
      Post count: 910

      Thanks Robin and CPT Frog–I used to have an adjutant that handled my lengthy rambles–retirement is heck. The good news is that Linda caught me before I put my fist through this new laptop–replaced one I threw down the stairs. Back to the trad. lifestyle– I now have pen and paper– can you send me the mailing address?:lol:

    • Michael Scott
      Post count: 80

      colmike,

      Could you be so kind as to give the full names of the organizations you gave the abbreviations for? I don’t believe I recognize a single one of them. Thanks!

    • Col MikeCol Mike
      Member
      Post count: 910

      Michael–sorry, a lifetime of acronyms. BCH–Back country hunters and anglers. TU–Trout unlimited. Wtf–Wild turkey federation. Rgs–Ruffed grouse society. I don’t support the nra–IMHO–their stated purpose- defending our constitutional rights is a cover to support the gun manufacturing cabal-the organizations prime contributor. I won’t go on with that thread.:?

      Semper Fi

      Mike

    • lyagooshka
      Post count: 600

      colmike wrote: …Wtf–Wild turkey federation…

      Oops! 😕 😕 😕 😕 😕

      😆

    • Wexbow
      Post count: 403

      lyagooshka wrote: [quote=colmike]…Wtf–Wild turkey federation…

      Oops! 😕 😕 😕 😕 😕

      😆

      😆 I love that one too 😆

    • gigglemonk
      Post count: 146

      hunt·ing

      /?h?ntiNG/

      Noun

      The activity of hunting wild animals or game, esp. for food or sport.

      Im not a fan of gov’t regulations, but thats what gov’ts do. Im not a fan of canned ‘hunts’ either. If the animal is penned, its no longer wild. Its the first step towards domestication, so calling it hunting is a misnomer that affects legit hunters.

      Still, if a segment of the population cant regulate themselves, the gov’t and other organizations will.

      the “When will it stop?” question seems to be a fear that comes from the inability to take charge of our own group.

      If we stepped up as a group and condemned canned hunts as we know we should have we would be in a much different position. Now we’ve just shown the nonhunters that we cant manage ourselves so someone else will.

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