Elk Hunt – Bad Penetration!

[manystalksfewkills]

#7440

Hello all – First let me say I had a wonderful 10 day elk hunt with a long time friend. Plenty of action, he was able to harvest a 5 point with his compound. Wonderful days spent stalking in the mountains.

However I want to start a discussion on my set up, shot choice, bad penetration, and failure to recover a bull I arrowed! I am having trouble reflecting positively on my hunt with the bad after taste of a unrecovered/wounded animal.

I shoot a Saxon Hawk recurve, 50# @ 28. I ‘m probably pulling closer to 53#. Arrows are Trad only carbons, with a Tuffhead 300 grain broad head, weighing 650 grains. FOC about 15%.

I took a cow with this set up three season ago at about 15yds. Penetrated to the offside ribs.

This season I took a shoot at a spike bull @ 27yds, broadside looking towards my buddy cow calling down the ridge but not alert to me. He jumped the string a bit but I did see my arrow connect mid rib cage a bit farther back than ideal. Here is a pic of the recovered arrow. Waited about a hour to trail the bull. Found the arrow broke off about a half inch behind the broadhead. Good blood trail with foamy blood indicating a lung hit. The blood trail went uninterrupted for about 100 yards with the bull stopping three times bleeding puddles. At the last puddle the blood trail ended – searched two days but unable to find him. Needless to say the situation weighs heavy on my mind.

Am I shooting too light a set up for elk? Was the shot too far? Do my tracking skills suck. Can I learn my lesson fully enough that it puts some poor value on the wounding of that bull, and ensures I’m better hunter next time?

[Anonymous]

#62057

How high was the hit?

Right off the bat, increase that FOC. I can’t see how you’re only 15% FOC with a 300 grain head, though.

[manystalksfewkills]

#62076

Not sure exactly how high the hit was. Seemed a bit high and back but still in the “kill zone”

I may not be figuring my FOC correctly. 32″ from nock to broad head point. 9 and 1/4″ point to balance point.

[Jason Wesbrock]

#62155

ATA method for measuring FOC is from the throat of the nock to the back of the point. You’re basically just measuring the shaft, not the broadhead. Your FOC should be low to mid 20s.

[Vintage Archer]

#62168

manystalksfewkills wrote: Not sure exactly how high the hit was. Seemed a bit high and back but still in the “kill zone”

I may not be figuring my FOC correctly. 32″ from nock to broad head point. 9 and 1/4″ point to balance point.

Manystalksfewskis,

Sorry to hear about the lack of recovery.

I am not sure what breaking right behind the broad head is indicating particularly with a carbon arrow. You did not say how much blood was on the arrow indicating depth of penetration. You saw the arrow hit …what was you recollection of how much arrow went in.?? It sounds like you got part of a lung but maybe hit bone some where before you got there. STUFF HAPPENS ….very frustrating.

Others might have more insight.

Your total arrow weight is slightly on the low side to breech bone while it is 650 that is close to the minimum but those figures are ball park figures some bone may require more.…..Just thinking out loud.

The AMO method of measuring the FOC does not include the broad head or tip. While it is a exceptable method it is hard to relate back to Ashby’s foc guide lines

Try using this formula

http://tuffhead.com/education/formulas_FOC.html

measure your arrow length from knock to inert. Balance point from knock to balance point and plug those in the formuls.

Not sure you are calculating it correctly.

[Carl Brickey]

#62277

I’m hardly an expert on this, and haven’t had the chance to test these arrows on game yet, but try a sleeve of aluminum arrow that fits snugly over the shaft right behind the head as a footing. I did this to mine (2.5″ footing) and they are tough as nails. I had a carbon arrow break right behind the head a few years back on a deer and I think this will solve the problem. I’ve shot 4×4 posts with this sleeved footing setup, and it hasn’t failed me yet. It also adds to FOC, and I’m sure others on here use the same setup and can attest to the toughness on game. The best part is that 1 aluminum arrow will make almost a dozen sleeves.

[David Coulter]

#62279

ManyStalks,

I’ll let the experts chime in on the technical aspects. I just want to say I feel for you. Tough situation. All the best, dwc

[manystalksfewkills]

#62285

vintage archer wrote: [quote=manystalksfewkills]Not sure exactly how high the hit was. Seemed a bit high and back but still in the “kill zone”

I may not be figuring my FOC correctly. 32″ from nock to broad head point. 9 and 1/4″ point to balance point.

Manystalksfewskis,

Sorry to hear about the lack of recovery.

I am not sure what breaking right behind the broad head is indicating particularly with a carbon arrow. You did not say how much blood was on the arrow indicating depth of penetration. You saw the arrow hit …what was you recollection of how much arrow went in.?? It sounds like you got part of a lung but maybe hit bone some where before you got there. STUFF HAPPENS ….very frustrating.

Others might have more insight.

Your total arrow weight is slightly on the low side to breech bone while it is 650 that is close to the minimum but those figures are ball park figures some bone may require more.…..Just thinking out loud.

The AMO method of measuring the FOC does not include the broad head or tip. While it is a exceptable method it is hard to relate back to Ashby’s foc guide lines

Try using this formula

http://tuffhead.com/education/formulas_FOC.html

measure your arrow length from knock to inert. Balance point from knock to balance point and plug those in the formuls.

Not sure you are calculating it correctly.

Vintage Archer,

There is blood down the shaft about 7″. I did not see the arrow well after the hit so am not sure if that indicates penetration or just residual blood. Thanks for the info on arrow weight.

[Vintage Archer]

#62287

cpbiv wrote: I’m hardly an expert on this, and haven’t had the chance to test these arrows on game yet, but try a sleeve of aluminum arrow that fits snugly over the shaft right behind the head as a footing. I did this to mine (2.5″ footing) and they are tough as nails. I had a carbon arrow break right behind the head a few years back on a deer and I think this will solve the problem. I’ve shot 4×4 posts with this sleeved footing setup, and it hasn’t failed me yet. It also adds to FOC, and I’m sure others on here use the same setup and can attest to the toughness on game. The best part is that 1 aluminum arrow will make almost a dozen sleeves.

CPBLV Like you i am a believer in footings. It is possible that if the arrow was footed it might not have broke,,,,,I still wondering why it broke. The footing is insurance but not a complete remedy sometime the arrow will break beyond the footing….

[Vintage Archer]

#62412

“There is blood down the shaft about 7″. I did not see the arrow well after the hit so am not sure if that indicates penetration or just residual blood. Thanks for the info on arrow weight.”

MANYSTALKSFEWKILLS

We will never really know what happened but i assure you it happens to everyone who hunts with any regularity.

Ethical hunters feel bad about not recovering a wonded animal,but it is what it is,so we have to try and learn from it.

We should dwell on it long enough that that we are motivated to improve our skills and equipment but not enough that it dampers our enthusiasm for hunting .

Manystalkfewkills ..from your description of the arrow there was not much penetration . Seven inches of blood is probably about five inches of actual penetration beyond skin,tissue and fat.

Any thing is possible but there is a chance you hit higher on the body than thought .Six inches below the top of the back would put the arrow in the top ribs/lower spine. You could have got bone and top of one lung. A hard impact will break a arrow like you describe. A high lung shot would give up blood but subside until the lung fills. Any way it is all supposition now.

Using the FOC calculator at the link above I plugged in these numbers from your arrow.

1, arrow including tip less 3″ for the broad head makes arrow length 29 inches .

2. length of arrow to balance point = 22.75

FOC of your arrow is around 28.5 apron. If I used the right guessed dimensions

You did not give particulars of what components made up your arrow but it is possible if the arrow spine will handle it you could up your total arrow weight 50 grains and increase foc to approximately 30 %. A 3 inch footing would add 25 grains.:D

Thanks for sharing your experience .When we quit learning from these encounters we should hang it up:D:D

[manystalksfewkills]

#62535

I believe it is likely I hit higher than I thought. You know the whole sequence begins to seem like a dream after rethinking it so many times. I described the bull as jumping the string at the shot but I think it’s more accurate to say he ducked or crouched slightly. Then he was gone in a stride. All I saw was a flash of the fletching.

I know this is a story as old as time, and it only stregthens my resolve to get better, more educated, hunt harder and wiser.

I think I will work up some heavier arrows and look into different footing options.

Anyone think I should be shooting more bow? I got to admit the compound buddy I was hunting with planted that seed after he saw the arrow. His reaction was to say the a traditional bow just can’t produce enough kinetic energy to get adequate penetration. I have to admit I wasn’t in the mood to quote Ashby studies and argue momentum over kinetic in the tent that night while I dined on the backstraps of his bull…

[Stephen Graf]

#62847

There is no substitution for hitting the animal in the right place. Whether it be a heavy arrow, or a compound bow…

As you say, it becomes a dream after a while. But having been there myself, I would hazard a guess and say you didn’t hit lung. With that bow weight, broadhead, and arrow weight, if you had hit the rib cage below the spine, the arrow would have gone through.

I think you probably got him at or above the spine in the backstraps. That is, if you didn’t get him in the shoulder. Backstrap hits don’t usually produce much blood. Shoulder hits can bleed quite a bit. Neither one is fatal.

With the arrow broken behind the broadhead, and not much blood on the arrow, I tend to think it was a backstrap hit myself.

I think the biggest lesson to learn is to take shorter shots… Pass on the longer ones… And spend the time coming up with spunky quips to lay on your compound buddy next time he thinks he’s got some insights into traditional bows 😀

[Doc Nock]

#63300

manystalksfewkills wrote: I believe it is likely I hit higher than I thought.

Anyone think I should be shooting more bow? I got to admit the compound buddy I was hunting with planted that seed after he saw the arrow. His reaction was to say the a traditional bow just can’t produce enough kinetic energy to get adequate penetration. I have to admit I wasn’t in the mood to quote Ashby studies and argue momentum over kinetic in the tent that night while I dined on the backstraps of his bull…

Let’s set the stage for my comments. I don’t hunt huge crittes like elk..never did with a bow. Ok, done.

Now, as to the question about more bow…if you didn’t hit the boiler room, more bow won’t help! I lived in MT and one guy put TWO (count em) 338 slugs (Barnes controlled expansion) into an bull elk heart and it still plowed 300 yards down into doghair canyon of misery.

Proper placement and “BIG ENOUGH” doesn’t equal the tenancity of wild things!

Elk have been said to be “babies” if hit properly. Something went awry. Period. You spent 2 days looking. You did what ethics would dictate and nothing in nature goes to waste… so chin up and carry on.

Quit obsessing (my $.02) over equipment and face that a longer shot that resulted in time to react, caused a higher hit than desirable, and it didn’t mortally wound in a recoverable distance.

Equipment doesn’t appear to be the culprit. Don’t obsess or beat yourself to death, but dont’ focus on the wrong issue at hand.

80# bow draw in the wrong spot is a same outcome… don’t you think?

You paid a price. You learned. Now use the learning and take deep breaths… work on shot placement. Give yourself some leeway and never forget, but forgive the error!

Cheers! From one old fart to someone else, fwiw!

[David Petersen]

#63346

MSFK–first, you have my respect for publicly admitting your mistake and trying to learn from it so it doesn’t happen again. Beyond that, it’s a tough call. Like J.W. said, your FOC should be higher and likely you’re figuring it wrong … not that it really matters here. I’ve had only one case of poor penetration when using a single-bevel broadhead (Brown Bear), several years ago, and that was due to pulling a snap-shot on a spinning bull at six feet, and failing to reach full draw. I still recovered the animal but it took a while and he suffered unnecessarily. I too had a shaft break right behind a Tuffhead, two years ago, but it was Doug fir with a hardwood spline and the head and inch or so of shaft alone still had enough momentum to reach the heart and make short work of the young cow (shot from 20 yards). Do you use the same shafts for practice that you hunt with? If so, the one that broke could have been nicked and weakened. I keep mine segregated. In sum, purely guessing, my guess is that you didn’t reach full draw. Your setup, as described, sounds just fine. 50# is pushing our luck, but with the right arrows and heads I’ve consistently shot plumb through elk with a 52# bow. Best luck in future.

[manystalksfewkills]

#63466

Thanks for all the responses. They helped settle a bit of the bile in my gut. There is a Nov 10 -30 any deer archery season in my neck of the woods – I will add to the many stalks :P.

DP – The thought has crossed my mind about not getting to full draw… who knows. But then again… maybe I do need a new bow:twisted: Did you see Tailfeathers? – 😯

[Fallguy]

#14390

MSFK I to want to commend you on your concern and courage to bring this to a public forum. There many here with a much better understanding of the arrow dynamics involved here so will leave part of the equation to them. I just want to say to you that just because you did not recover the animal we know that others did. Nature does not let anything go to waste. If the shot was fatal then the ravens,eagles,coyotes and many others have made use of the kill. You also have gained knowledge from the event that will benefit your and your quarry in the future. Natures lessons do not come cheap and sometimes are painful. In this world no predator is 100% effective but we are the only ones that have a conscience to deal with for what we have done. The others have to deal with the hunger pangs of their stomachs. Good luck on the rest of your season I know that you will succeed in your quest for knowledge. You can walk tall amongst your peers for you have admitted your failure and have set out on the trail to prevent it from happening again

[Vintage Archer]

#14526

manystalksfewkills

Back at you! As you, I am still thinking about the circumstances of your elk encounter. As you described the setting unless the elk saw the arrow coming the only reason for him to duck was he heard the arrow. (I should stipulate not the only reason as critters have sense about things not being normal but we could assume for this scenario he heard the arrow). You might look at bow noise at release or arrow noise in flight.

[Nate Bailey]

#14714

Doc Nock wrote: [quote=manystalksfewkills]I believe it is likely I hit higher than I thought.

Anyone think I should be shooting more bow? I got to admit the compound buddy I was hunting with planted that seed after he saw the arrow. His reaction was to say the a traditional bow just can’t produce enough kinetic energy to get adequate penetration. I have to admit I wasn’t in the mood to quote Ashby studies and argue momentum over kinetic in the tent that night while I dined on the backstraps of his bull…

Let’s set the stage for my comments. I don’t hunt huge crittes like elk..never did with a bow. Ok, done.

Now, as to the question about more bow…if you didn’t hit the boiler room, more bow won’t help! I lived in MT and one guy put TWO (count em) 338 slugs (Barnes controlled expansion) into an bull elk heart and it still plowed 300 yards down into doghair canyon of misery.

Proper placement and “BIG ENOUGH” doesn’t equal the tenancity of wild things!

Elk have been said to be “babies” if hit properly. Something went awry. Period. You spent 2 days looking. You did what ethics would dictate and nothing in nature goes to waste… so chin up and carry on.

Quit obsessing (my $.02) over equipment and face that a longer shot that resulted in time to react, caused a higher hit than desirable, and it didn’t mortally wound in a recoverable distance.

Equipment doesn’t appear to be the culprit. Don’t obsess or beat yourself to death, but dont’ focus on the wrong issue at hand.

80# bow draw in the wrong spot is a same outcome… don’t you think?

You paid a price. You learned. Now use the learning and take deep breaths… work on shot placement. Give yourself some leeway and never forget, but forgive the error!

Cheers! From one old fart to someone else, fwiw! sound advice

[Vintage Archer]

#14809

Nate Bailey wrote: [quote=Doc Nock][quote=manystalksfewkills]I believe it is likely I hit higher than I thought.

Anyone think I should be shooting more bow? I got to admit the compound buddy I was hunting with planted that seed after he saw the arrow. His reaction was to say the a traditional bow just can’t produce enough kinetic energy to get adequate penetration. I have to admit I wasn’t in the mood to quote Ashby studies and argue momentum over kinetic in the tent that night while I dined on the backstraps of his bull…

Let’s set the stage for my comments. I don’t hunt huge crittes like elk..never did with a bow. Ok, done

Now, as to the question about more bow…if you didn’t hit the boiler room, more bow won’t help! I lived in MT and one guy put TWO (count em) 338 slugs (Barnes controlled expansion) into an bull elk heart and it still plowed 300 yards down into doghair canyon of misery.

Proper placement and “BIG ENOUGH” doesn’t equal the tenancity of wild things!

Elk have been said to be “babies” if hit properly. Something went awry. Period. You spent 2 days looking. You did what ethics would dictate and nothing in nature goes to waste… so chin up and carry on.

Quit obsessing (my $.02) over equipment and face that a longer shot that resulted in time to react, caused a higher hit than desirable, and it didn’t mortally wound in a recoverable distance.

Equipment doesn’t appear to be the culprit. Don’t obsess or beat yourself to death, but dont’ focus on the wrong issue at hand.

80# bow draw in the wrong spot is a same outcome… don’t you think?

You paid a price. You learned. Now use the learning and take deep breaths… work on shot placement. Give yourself some leeway and never forget, but forgive the error!

There is a reason the elk was alerted. It was stated his attention was concentrated on the partner calling. The elk was broad side . The elk ducked possibly resulting in a poor shot.

Others may have concluded that it was not equipment . Their conclusions have not convinced me there for I am still

Cheers! From one old fart to someone else, fwiw! sound advice

NATE I guess you are saying it was not equipment.:?:

There is a reason the elk was alerted. It was stated his attention was concentrated on the partner calling. The elk was broad side . The elk ducked possibly resulting in a poor shot.

Others may have concluded that it was not equipment . Their conclusions have not convinced me therefor I am still obsessing.LOL:D:D

Not trying to open old wounds ( no pun intended )just thinking the equipment was available and it could be checked. That way we don’t have to assume. I am sure the obvious was already eliminated:lol:

[Alexandre Bugnon]

#21964

Doc Nock wrote:

Proper placement and “BIG ENOUGH” doesn’t equal the tenancity of wild things!

So true!! I will paste this quote into my signature! Is it OK, Doc?:D

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