Home Forums Friends of FOC Building that EFOC & UEFOC arrow

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    • Troy Breeding
      Post count: 994

      I know afew of you have read my post on my attempts for an arrow of this type. Well, after several e-mail with Ed Ashby he suggested I start a thread telling of my attempts. So here it goes, from first attempy to my last e-mail with Ed.

      My current setup has been working fine. A Beman Bowhunter shaft in 300 def. 31.250″ long with 250 gr. up front. FOC is 20% and so far has been fine for me.

      Well I deside to try for Ultra EFOC.

      I knew I would have to shorten the shaft to get this so I desided to start by shortening the shaft to 30.5″. Thats only 3/4″ shorter than my normal, what could that hurt?

      Once the insert was set I started by switching to a 315gr point (190gr glue on with 125gr steel adpt.). After afew test shots I could see it was still too stiff.

      Now I pull out some of my 20gr GT weights and installed acouple. Take afew shots, but still too stiff. Add acouple more, better but still stiff. I kept adding weights and shooting until the arrow hit the up and down line on the target every shot.

      After that I desided to add up everything to see what I had.

      Well,,,,, 315gr point, 21gr insert, and 12 ea. 20gr GT brass weights. Add in the shaft and nock, three 4″ feathers (after fletching) and grand total weight came out to 888grs. The FOC is 30.3% so if I understand the range right I now have an ULTRA EFOC Buffalo arrow. :-0

      Guess I’ll be starting over and this time I’ll start with a 31.25 shaft,add weight until it shoots weak, and if the foc isn’t what I want I’ll trim alittle off the rear.

      I’m going to do this with several post. Otherwise this round would be several pages long.

      Troy

    • Troy Breeding
      Post count: 994

      This was one of the first e-mail I received from Ed after the above post.

      All the experimenting is a load of fun. Since I started working with EFOC/Ultra-EFOC I’ve learned more about arrow design and flight characteristics than I did in the first 45 years or so of shooting them.

      Ed

      When you receive e-mail like this you have a tendacey to keep pushing.

      I’ll see if I can now find the rest of notes.

      Troy

    • Troy Breeding
      Post count: 994

      Afew days later and after thinking things over I knew I needed to try again. This was my note back to Ed.

      Ed,
      My latest attempt turned out somewhat different to my first. I used a 300 beman shaft and started at full length. When finished, I had a 32-3/8″ shaft with 250 up front, 21 gr alum. insert and 80gr behind the insert. It still shot slightly weak, but figured it best since I would be adding fletching.

      I’ve been talking to acouple other fellows about this and one pointed out the added results of reducing rear weight. Sometimes something as simple as 5 grains can often offset the FOC by acouple of precent.

      Troy

      Ed’s reply to this is as follows:

      Correct. The higher the FOC gets the longer the rear lever arm gets and the shorter the forward lever arm gets. At the higher levels of FOC it takes a lot of weight added to the arrow’s front to equal the FOC change removing just a little weight from the arrow’s rear makes. That long rear lever arm at the higher levels of FOC is also what allows the tiny A&A fletching to fully stabalize broadheads; and that tiny fletching’s lighter weight helps boost FOC too.

      Ed

      This should be about all for this posting. More in afew minutes.

      Troy

    • Troy Breeding
      Post count: 994

      After reciving he e-mail all I could do was reply with this:

      Ed,
      Well Dang,,,, guess that means the wraps and 4″ feathers are nothing but excess weight. That explains why the arrows shot pretty good with just three 4″ feathers, but when I added the wraps and reflethed with 4″ feathers I had to have an almost perfect release to get the same smooth shot.

      This is he reply:

      Troy,
      You got it! I use no wraps, no creating; nothing but the tiny A&A fletching. Some folks have even gone so far as to shorten the internal portion of the nock (but I don’t). Look on Tradbow at the photos that Kingwouldbe posted of the big hog with the Tuffheads. I think his A&A fletch looks real good (since they are in the color I like best on mine too).

      Ed

      After a statement like that the best i could come up with for a reply was this:

      Ed,
      I’ve got some of the 100gr brass inserts on the way to me. I’m interested in seeing what they will do to my arrows instead of the alum. insert and 80grs. behind. I know it should push my balance point futher forward. With the alum. insert and 80 behind, I have alittle more than 2″ of my weight behind the end of the shaft. I know it will be approx the same weight, but will be closer to the end of the shaft.
      Troy

      As you can see from the post Ed is a book of knowledge that he opens with ease.

      Troy

    • Troy Breeding
      Post count: 994

      Ed’s reply to the last statement is:

    • jmsmithy
      Member
      Post count: 300

      Troy Breeding wrote: Ed’s reply to the last statement is:

      Thanks for this Troy…

      Dr Ashby, or Troy or whoever for that matter – can you explain what A&A fletching is? What does A&A stand for etc…what type size cut of feathers etc etc etc…..:?:

    • Troy Breeding
      Post count: 994

      Opps,,,, sorry about that hit the wrong button. As I started to say, his reply was:

      Troy,
      It will definitely give some FOC boost, but how much depends on were you are already. The other big plus will be in the arrow’s structural integrity. Aluminum inserts are one of the weakest links (the weakest, unless one shoots a really poor BH) in the arrow system.

      Ed

      Afew day later I sent Ed this:

      Ed,
      This EFOC business is truly unbelievable. I did alittle futher shooting and testig and this is what I found.

      Been working with a 32-3/8″ Beman Bowhunter 300 with 250gr point, 21gr alum insert and 80gr behind the point. The shaft shot slightly weak. Afterwards I added a 7″ wrap and three 4″ feathers. My EFOC after fletching was 24.4%. Not being totally sold on the setup I stripped the wrap and fletching. Did alittle more bareshafting and desided to drop approx. 1/16″. Shot better, but still not to the straight or stiff side. So I trimed approx another 1/16″. Better yet, so I kept trimming and shooting untill I had removed 1/4″. The shaft now shoots faintly weak. This time I chopped three of my 5″ parabolic feathers down to a 2-1/4″ parabolic. Fletched the arrows and shot. They shoot supergreat. EFOC is now 26.4%, they weigh 670grs. and can’t hardly tell any difference in the new setup to the arrows I had been shooting that were 31-1/2″ long, weighed 605grs. and only had 20% EFOC.

      I think once the brass inserts get here I may be able to gain a fudge bit more efoc when I replace the alum. insert and the 80 grs. behind with one of them.

      I’m hoping to increase the EFOC to UEFOC and yet still not have a finished arrow that will exceed 700grs.

      Ed’s reply was this:

      Troy,
      Is that 2.25″ fletching a 3 fletch or 4 fletch? While it’s more than enough for a field point it might not be enough to overcome the windsheer of a broadhead. A lot will depend on the quality of your release (and, of course, the broadhead you use). Wesley can get by with 2″ three fletch on his compound for the Grizzly, with a mechanical release. I need 4 feathers at 2.5″ and David (Kingwouldbe) had to go to 4 fletch at 3″ on his. Of course your longer shaft will help (that longer rear stearing arm). I’m anxious to see how your works out. Please keep updating your work on TradBow. It might be helpful to others.

      If you think what you’re seeing now with EFOC is impressive just wait until you see the difference they make in tissue penetration!

      Ed

      As you can see, we e-mail quite abit. I’m sure some of you wonder what it would be like if we ever came face to face.

      Real simple to explain. Ed stopped by the house one evening when I lived in AL. If I remember right he left pulled out headed to another friends about 5 the next morning.

      Troy

    • Troy Breeding
      Post count: 994

      jmsmithy,

      The A&A fletch is fairly simple. Now Ed may tell you different since I’m only making one from pictures.

      It’s a 2-1/2″ long feather along the base. The rear of the feather is straight up and down. I make mine by cutting the front 2-1/2″ off a 4″ feather then trimming the rear of the vanes of the feather straight.

      A&A stand for Adcock and Ashby.

      When I first tried them I thought “this is a joke”. Believe me, once you get a bareshaft shooting right they are all you need.

      Troy

    • Troy Breeding
      Post count: 994

      This is my latest reply to Ed:

      Ed,
      Well, still playing with my arrow setup. As stated before I’ve been getting good flight, but I knew I could get better. Using the 300 Beman shafts the best I’ve been able to get so far was 26.4% EFOC without having a finished arrow that tipped the scales at 800+ grs.
      My bareshafting has been good, but tough to get so I started building out my sight window to see what would happen. When I built the bow I cut the window to 3/16″ past center. I added two pieces of leather that brought the window to center. I then put on the velcro which brought me out approx. another 1/8″. All this cleaned up my bareshafting to the best I’ve seen to date.
      Knowing I was going to figure out how to get to the UEFOC meant I was going to need a lighter shaft.
      So this morning I took a 340 Beman that by chance was already at 30″. I added 80grs behind the insert to cover for the brass insert. I then added a 2-1/2″ footing from a 2117 and tipped it with a 250 point. The only thing I had to do to get it to bareshaft fairly clean was drop my nocking point 1/8″. Pretty good luck if I say so for just trying something different. I then cut 1/16″ off the tail and shot some more. Better, but not great. Afew more cuts and shots yeilded a 29-3/4″ shaft that, as best I can tell is as good as anything else I’ve come up with. After checking the FOC I found that I now had 28.5% EFOC. Fletched the shaft with three of your A&A style fletching and a turburlator band then checked it again. Now I have 27.9% EFOC that total arrow weight is just under 670grs. Talk about a sweet flying puppy.
      Not willing to stop I then switched to a 315gr point, stripped the fletching and band then started over. I knew it would be weak, just didn’t know how much. Not wanting to cut it down anymore, I then added another piece of velcro. Cleaned it up quite a bit so I added another piece. As best I can tell I’m now approx. 3/8″ before center on the sight window and have a shaft that shoots very clean. Refletched and installed another band. It now shoots as clean as it did with the 250 point. At 20yds or less I can’t tell much difference. Past 20 it does drop quite a bit. For some folks it would probley be just right. For me it’s a bit heavy, 730grains.
      Not finding any light weight shafts in the 300 def. at any of the local shops is why I deside to try one of the 340 Beamns I had here. I figured if it worked I could then see what was avaliable locally.
      Forgot to say, the 340 with 315 point yeilds a 29.9% EFOC arrow. So for giggles and fits I took a 400 def. Beman that weights 8.4GPI and set it up the same way as I did the 340. The FOC on it shows to be 30.3% on the finished arrow. This means that if I can find either some of the Easton Flatlines in 340 or Carbon Express Maxima 350 I should be able to get into the UEFOC range. I know you and King are using GT, but to be honest I’m not a GT fan. I’ve tested too many of them and most of the time you never get a full dozen that all shafts are equal in spine and weight.
      I’ll let you know what I find today and what the results are.

      Troy

      The reply he sent back is the reason for all this:

      Troy,
      That is so pertinent and so well written that I think you need to start a TradBow post on your tuning efforts and post this last email verbatim. I think it will be of great help to others trying to work up a tuned arrow.

      Ed

      So there you go, give or take a few non-concerning e-mail that pretty much covers what happened.

      BTW, forgot to say I found afew shafts today I’m going to try. They are the new Beman Speed shafts. They only weigh 8.1 gpi. Hopefully I’ll get that 30+% UEFOC arrow now.

      Troy

    • jmsmithy
      Member
      Post count: 300

      So Troy

      I’m shooting Griz stick Alaskans AND Beman MFX 400, full HIT insert in both (75gr) with Ashby 315 gr broad heads.

      Basically you are saying I can take my typical 4″ fletch, cut it down to a 2.5″ shield and let ’em rip?:shock::roll::?:

    • Ed Ashby
      Member
      Post count: 816

      jmsmithy wrote: Dr Ashby, or Troy or whoever for that matter – can you explain what A&A fletching is? What does A&A stand for etc…what type size cut of feathers etc etc etc…..:?:

      As Troy said, A&A stands for Adcock & Ashby. Basically it consist of a straight cut triangle with a turbulator placed one-quarter inch forward of the fletching. I brought the thread with the A&A fletching to the top over on the ‘Bows and Traditional Equipment’ forum. https://www.tradbow.com/members/cfmbb/messages.cfm?messageid=D041AE7E-1422-1DE9-ED6FBA3B3B267C64#D041AE7E-1422-1DE9-ED6FBA3B3B267C64

      Great job on the posting Troy.

      Ed

    • Ed Ashby
      Member
      Post count: 816

      jmsmithy wrote: Basically you are saying I can take my typical 4″ fletch, cut it down to a 2.5″ shield and let ’em rip?:shock::roll::?:

      Not exactly. I’ll just copy over my post on another thread on tuning and part of it deals with how to find the correct amount of fletching, once the arrow is bare shaft tuned.

      Okay, here’s a ‘scoop’, Part of the next Update will have a section on how I apply bare shaft tuning. Since that portion of the Update is pretty much finished I’ll post it here.

      A well tuned Extreme FOC arrow requires that the dynamic spine be tuned to the specific bow AND SHOOTER; i.e. it’s something that only you can develop yourself; if you want to get good results. What this means is that you have to bare shaft tune the shaft’s dynamic spine to get the precise degree of actual deflection at launch that gives perfect paradox recovery. Only you can do that because it depends on more than just the bow used. How you hold the bow and how you shoot makes a difference. The pattern of your hand pressure on the bow is important. The quality of your release affects it; and so do things such as your follow-through after the shot.

      Bare shaft tuning Extreme FOC arrows is actually a very easy process. Many folks make it more difficult than it is, simply because they don’t seem to understand what they are trying to do, and they often try to mix different tuning methods. That adds layers of confusion in their mind; muddling the decision making process and leading to mistakes in tuning adjustments.

      First, understand what you can expect from a weak and strong dynamic spine. If you are right handed, a shaft with weak dynamic spine will strike to the right of your aiming point. That’s because the shaft bends too far around the bow’s riser at release, and is not stiff enough to flex back into its original alignment at the time it was released. A dynamic spine that’s too stiff does not bend around the bow riser enough, and it will fly to the left of where you were pointing it at the time of release. If you’re left handed those impact positions are reversed.

      If you are shooting off a fixed arrow rest a weak dynamic spine will also shoot lower than an arrow with the correct dynamic spine; and a dynamic spine too stiff will shoot high. That’s for the same reason as the left or right impact. We often speak of ‘arrow flex’ during paradox but it is actually arrow oscillation, with the flexion occurring in all planes. Thus the arrow not only bends around the riser, it also bends around the arrow shelf or arrow rest.

      Here’s the bare shaft dynamic spine tuning process I use, as simply stated as I can manage.

      1. Even if you normally shoot with your bow canted, do all bare shaft tuning with your bow held vertically. THIS IS IMPORTANT. If you cant your bow, strong-spine deflection then becomes ‘up and left’, and weak spine becomes ‘down and right’. Trying to separate up and down shooting errors from the spine’s influence is difficult when the bow is canted.

      2. The best target for bare shaft tuning dynamic spine is a straight vertical line. A strip of tape on a piece of cardboard works well. I set this to true vertical on a backstop, using a plumb bob. Aim all your shots to align with the tape, as close as you possible can. Try your best to keep your arrow aligned with the tape, left and right. Don’t be concerned about the up and down impact.

      3. When tuning dynamic spine, concern yourself ONLY with the left-right point of arrow impact in relation to the tape. Ignore any ‘nock kick’ (to either right or left). If the nocks consistently show way high or way low kick, adjust the nocking point of your string a bit to get them fairly level (up and down). For nocks too high, move your nocking point down, and vice versa.

      4. Start out with the total tip weight setup you want to use. For most carbon arrows a total tip weight of around 350 grains will get you well up into the Extreme FOC range. This can be a 100 grain brass insert with a 125 grain point on a 125 grain steel BH adaptor; or any other combination of component weights that adds up to the total weight you wish to use. My “normal” point setup for my hunting arrows is a 190 gr. point (to match the Grizzly), a 125 grain steel BH adaptor with a 100 grain brass insert; for a total point weight of 415 grains. If I use this on CE 350 Heritage shafts or Grizzly Stik Safari shafts, and it gives about 26% to 28% FOC. The Heritage and Grizzly Stik are fairly heavy shafts (in grains per inch). The lighter your shaft (in grains per inch) the higher FOC you’ll end up with for a given point weight. That’s because the shaft’s weight towards the rear will be less than for a higher-mass shaft. A tapered shaft also helps up the FOC. With this point weight on a lighter shaft, such as a Gold Tip Ultra-Light, the FOC is up in the Ultra-EFOC range; above 30%.

      5. Begin your bare shaft testing with a full length shaft. Start the testing from up close; about 12 to 15 yards. Shoot a group of shots and see where the group center is, in relation to your tape. It SHOULD be to the right (if you’re right handed). One thing you have to be on guard for here is that when the dynamic spine is WAY off, you can get false readings. These are commonly encountered when you first test, with the shaft still full length; especially the false strong spine impact. They are caused by the back of the shaft striking the riser, deflecting the arrows flight to the opposite direction from where the spine wants to take it. So, apply a bit of consideration of what you SHOULD be seeing initially. If it doesn’t show weak spine (impacting to the right) SUSPECT that the back end of the shaft is slapping your bow and go ahead and shorten the shaft a few times. Often the impact will suddenly jump from a false strong spine impact to a markedly weak spine impact; once the shaft’s rear stops slapping against the bow’s riser.

      If you shorten the shaft all you can at this close range and the impact is still showing weak spine (a right impact), then the only cure is to start over with a shaft having a stiffer static spine.

      6. From this close range, and assuming you’re not getting a false reading, your bare-shaft arrow should be impacting to the right side of the tape. Begin shortening your full length shaft in small increments. If the close-range dynamic spine is WAY weak I generally take off about ½” to 1″ at a time, cutting from the shaft’s rear end (to prevent having to remove the insert every time the shaft has to be cut), until the point of impact is getting a few inches from the tape. From there on, I shorten the shaft in 5mm increments – about 1/5 inch at a time. Stop shortening the shaft when the point of impact is still about 2″ right of the strip of tape. It’s important to not cross over to a strong spine impact. If you do that, the only cure is to add more point weight.

      [NOTE: All parallel shafts can be shortened from the rear, and you’ll not need to remove the inserts to cut the shaft. On tapered carbon shafts you’ll need to make the cuts from the front of the shaft. This requires that you remove the insert before making each cut.]

      7. Move back to 20 yards and repeat the process, again stopping when the point of impact shows about 2″ of right (weak spine) impact.

      8. Progressively move farther and farther back, repeating the process to as far a distance as you have faith in the validity of your group’s accuracy; for determining the left-right ‘group center’. I tune my bare shafts back to 40 meters, about 44 yards. At that distance I leave the bare shaft group’s center showing about 1 ½” to no more than 2″ of weak-spine (right) impact. Adding fletching will have a slight stiffening effect on the dynamic spine.

      9. Now fine tune your nocking point. Do this at fairly close range, about 10 yards, and on a target of uniform density (a fairly new foam-type target). If the nock kicks up on impact, move the string’s nocking point down; and vice versa. Get the arrows impacting with the nocks as straight (level, up and down) as you can.

      10. Next, make up some more shafts matching those you’ve tuned and fletch them up. Use ample, but not excessive, fletching size; just enough to be certain it will stabilize whatever broadhead you intend to be using later. Shoot several groups to confirm that the fletched shafts impact into the same group as your bare shafts. If you normally shoot your bow canted, then go ahead and shoot these groups that way.

      11. The final stage is to add broadheads onto matching fletched shafts and verify that they also impact the same as your bare shafts and the fletched field points.

      The one factor I didn’t mention in the tuning process is that you can also use the degree of centershot on your bow as a tuning aid. Building the riser out (giving it less ‘centershot’) will allow a weaker dynamic spine to tune correctly. When I apply this technique during tuning I simply add layers of masking tape until I get the right thickness. Once I’ve determined the correct amount I peal the tape off and measure the thickness and build the riser out that far. Often all that’s required is a thicker arrow plate.

      So far, when I’ve tuned the bare shafts this way I’ve yet to have the fletched arrows (both field points and broadheads) fail to match the flight the impact point for the bare shafts.

      Once I have the setup tuned this way I then tune the fletching to give the smallest fletching that will stabilize the broadhead under all shooting conditions. I prefer the A&A fletching pattern, which utilizes a turbulator forward of the fletching. Here’s the process I use to tune the A&A fletching, but the same process works for determining the minimum size for any fletching pattern. Just as when bare shaft tuning, finding the minimum amount fletching is a step by step process.

      1. Once you feel that you have the bare shaft tuned correctly, mount a matched-weight broadhead on one of the shafts. First use what you are absolutely certain is ample fletching to stabilize the broadhead and VERIFY that the fletched-shaft/broadhead has identical impact to the field-point tipped bare shaft. You can use any fletching pattern you like for this step.

      2. Once your shaft tuning is verified begin, switch to the A&A pattern on the broadhead tipped shaft, starting at about 5” length if you are using 3-fletch, or 4” if using 4-fletch. DO NOT add the turbulator yet. Shoot the arrow several times and check the flight stability.

      3. If all is well, begin to gradually decrease the length of the A&A fletchings until the point where you FIRST see a slight instability in the arrow’s flight. Be sure to shoot several shots before making a decision on the flight stability, and it helps if you can have another person also watching for flight instability too.

      4. Now add the turbulator and check to be sure the flight is again completely stable. If addition of the turbulator does not completely stabilize the arrow’s flight increase the fletching length by ¼” and check again, with the turbulator in place.

      Many factors affect what’s the minimum A&A fletching that will work FOR YOU. A big factor is quality of your release (mine’s poor). Other major factors are the type of broadhead (how much wind shear it generates) and the amount of FOC on the arrow and the shaft’s length. Your draw length on whatever length shaft you are using is also a factor. At a given amount of FOC, the longer the shaft the less fletching required; because of the lengthened rear steering arm. Your draw length vs. shaft length affects the point of maximum shaft flex upon release.

      5. Once you feel you have the fletching at the minimum size for stability there’s only one task remaining; you will need to check arrow flight on a windy day. When checking for flight in windy conditions you will want to take shots as many angles to the wind, but at a minimum check the arrow’s flight in a full cross-wind and both quartering with and quartering into the wind. I’ve not found any problem when using the high MA single blade broadheads, because of their very low wind shear factor, but many of the wide-narrow broadheads require an increase in fletching area to achieve flight stability in quartering wind conditions.

      This sounds like a lot of work, and it is, but it is a one time job for a given arrow setup. It’s analogous to a working up the very best handload for a rifle; and cheaper and easier to accomplish than finding the best rifle handload too!

      Ed

    • Troy Breeding
      Post count: 994

      jmsmithy wrote: So Troy

      I’m shooting Griz stick Alaskans AND Beman MFX 400, full HIT insert in both (75gr) with Ashby 315 gr broad heads.

      Basically you are saying I can take my typical 4″ fletch, cut it down to a 2.5″ shield and let ’em rip?:shock::roll::?:

      jmsmithy,

      If I’m reading what you said right then I’d advise looking back at what I said. I take a 4″ feathera and cut 2-1/2″ off the front. This will give you a 2-1/2″ feather that looks like the old style Pope and Young. I then cut the long trailing vanes of the feather straight or in other words 90 degrees to the base of the feather.

      If your shafts are tuned right then it should work. Reducing even a few grains off the tail of the arrow will up the FOC.

      Like I’ve stated in the past. I used to shoot nothing but heavy, heavy, heavy…. Now that I’m seeing how these EFOC and UEFOC arrows shoot and penetrate in my backstop target I know I’m going to have one heck of a good hnting arrow.

      Troy

    • Troy Breeding
      Post count: 994

      One thing I’d like to point out again. When I started this venture I was sure I could make this work without having to do anything to my bow other than raise or lower the nocking point.

      NOT!!!!

      I was hard headed and refused to build out the sight window. After finally doing it I can now say when I build my next bow the sight window will only be cut to 1/4″ before center max.

      Troy

    • ozzyshane
      Post count: 13

      Troy great info can you give us a run down on your bow specs

      another arrow that will lend itsef to EFOC is the CT cheetah

      does any one us a chopper from 3 rivers to make the A&A fethers they custom make to your order or do you all just use sicissors and cut
      Thanks Shane

    • Ed Ashby
      Member
      Post count: 816

      ozzyshane wrote: does any one us a chopper from 3 rivers to make the A&A fethers they custom make to your order or do you all just use sicissors and cute

      Shane, I know a few folks are using custom choppers to cut their A&A fletching. I still use a GOOD pair of scissors and cut mine from full length feathers. That’s partly because I continue to experiment with new arrow setups.

      In addition to the broadhead used the exact size of the fletching required can also vary by the amount of FOC and the length the shaft ends up tuning at (because, at a given amount of FOC, the longer the shaft the greater the length of the rear leaver arm and the less the amount of fletching required). However, the main reason I still use scissors is because the straight cuts of the A&A are so easy to make with just scissors. I do use a plastic template as a guide, which I hold against the feather while I cut. I cut the template from old plastic bottles.

      Ed

    • Texas Red Dog
      Post count: 5

      I can’t wait to trying some of this EFOC stuff. I’m going to order some of those tuffheads.

      Where are you guys finding these inserts and weights?

    • Troy Breeding
      Post count: 994

      ozzyshane wrote: Troy great info can you give us a run down on your bow specs

      another arrow that will lend itsef to EFOC is the CT cheetah

      does any one us a chopper from 3 rivers to make the A&A fethers they custom make to your order or do you all just use sicissors and cut
      Thanks Shane

      Shane,

      The bow I’m currently shooting is a recurve of my own design. My design started from the usual Bingham layout that I have tweeked quite abit.

      62″ ,, 55# @ 29″,, Shelf orginally cut to 3/16″ past center,, 12 strand 8125 endless loop string, shot split finger.

      As stated above the sight window is now approx 3/8″ before center, eveything else the same.

      I looked closely at the pics of Ed’s A&A feather and kinda figured they were hand cut. After doing afew cuts myself I desided on simply taking the front 2-1/2″ of a standard feather and squaring off the tail of the cut. I can’t see enough difference in that and the hand cut to warrent all the extra work of cutting from full length. I can cut three feathers in about one minute.

      Finding different make shafts in this area is tough. Thats why I havn’t tried the Cheetah. Price is another ???:shock: When your working out what will work best you can spend several $$$$ in raw shafting alone.

      Troy

    • Ed Ashby
      Member
      Post count: 816

      Texas Red Dog wrote: Where are you guys finding these inserts and weights?

      Just do a Google search with “brass inserts arrows” and you’ll come up with several sources.

      Ed

    • Ed Ashby
      Member
      Post count: 816

      Troy Breeding wrote: After doing afew cuts myself I desided on simply taking the front 2-1/2″ of a standard feather and squaring off the tail of the cut. I can’t see enough difference in that and the hand cut to warrent all the extra work of cutting from full length. I can cut three feathers in about one minute.
      Troy

      … but cutting from full length feathers is less expensive. 😀

      Ed

    • Troy Breeding
      Post count: 994

      Dr. Ed Ashby wrote: [quote=Troy Breeding]After doing afew cuts myself I desided on simply taking the front 2-1/2″ of a standard feather and squaring off the tail of the cut. I can’t see enough difference in that and the hand cut to warrent all the extra work of cutting from full length. I can cut three feathers in about one minute.
      Troy

      … but cutting from full length feathers is less expensive. 😀

      Ed

      :D:lol: Thats a big 10-4 on the less expensive side. Only advantage I have is I still have several thousand feathers in either shield or parabolic cuts in both left and right wing and 4″ or 5″. My supply of full length is restricked to afew colors and bags of imatation barr.

      Troy

    • Ed Ashby
      Member
      Post count: 816

      The A&A fletch is applied as a straight fletch, with no offset or helical. This decreases wind noise around the fletching to the maximum amount possible. If the fletching size has been determine by the steps I outlined in the prior post you will KNOW that this provides all the drag necessary to stabilize the broadhead under all flight/wind conditions. I found the following quotes on a ‘fletching thread’ elsewhere, where a neophyte was asking for recommendations.

      “As much helical as you can put on them.”

      “Always use helical, especially w/broadheads.”

      “As said, as much helical as your jig will make.”

      “They slow the arrow down, make a lot of noise, but they stabilize the arrow and I do like them I shoot 5 3/4″ 7 degree offset.”

      “Mine are 5 1/2″ and I used a chopper to cut them. I’ll put as much helical into them as I can.”

      “Helically applied, “maxi fletch” banana or shield cut feathers is all I have ever hunted with.”

      This makes me wonder if these ‘more experienced’ folks are using excessive fletching and excessive helical to compensate for a lack of adequate arrow tuning or whether their arrows are so marginally stable due to low FOC that they need this amount of drag to overcome the broadhead’s windshear effect and stabilize the arrow’s flight.

      Ed

    • Troy Breeding
      Post count: 994

      Ed,

      Not a truier word have you ever said.

      For some silly reason I was watching the one eyed monster this evening and was able to see exactly what you are saying.

      I want call any names but I will say he shoots a recurve.

      Well, to cut to the chase, this un-named hunter was trying for a Coues Deer. Yep, along comes Mr. Big Buck. Like all the rest of the boob tube shooters I thought he would never loose an arrow. When he finally did I almost fell out of the chair laughing at the flight of his arrow. I even backtracked to see it again, not only once but several times.
      I will say this, how in the world that buck went down in less than 60 yds is beyond me. His arrow was almost sideways in mid flight and still heavy tail right when it hit the deer.

      The reason I know this is the camera was to the right of the shooter and at one point all I could see was the nock and rear of the fletching.

      Troy

    • Ed Ashby
      Member
      Post count: 816

      I’m enjoying not having the boob tube to watch. For the last nearly 3 years, while in and out of hospitals, I had nothing much to do but watch it. After just the first month I reached the point that I COULD NOT watch any more so-called bowhunting on any of the ‘outdoor channels’; had to switch to the history, military, science and Fox News channels … with a bit of old movies, football and si-fi thrown in.

      Ed

    • Troy Breeding
      Post count: 994

      Dr. Ed Ashby wrote: I’m enjoying not having the boob tube to watch. For the last nearly 3 years, while in and out of hospitals, I had nothing much to do but watch it. After just the first month I reached the point that I COULD NOT watch any more so-called bowhunting on any of the ‘outdoor channels’; had to switch to the history, military, science and Fox News channels … with a bit of old movies, football and si-fi thrown in.

      Ed

      You guessed it, I was channel surfing. The only reason I stopped on that channel was the fact that I knew this hunter shot a curve and thought it might be interesting. Never knew it would end up being a belly busting laugh.

      Troy

    • Mujahid
      Post count: 2

      bump

    • David Petersen
      Member
      Post count: 2749

      Mujahid — Welcome to tradbow.com … but in future, could you please keep your posts a bit briefer? :D:P:)

    • Mujahid
      Post count: 2

      David Petersen wrote: Mujahid — Welcome to tradbow.com … but in future, could you please keep your posts a bit briefer? :D:P:)

      hahahahaha!!! many thanks. I have come across a great book on archery dataing back some 500yrs that yo all may find interesting to read, how would I send it to you guy’s or put it up for all to see. it is in pdf format and is +/- 250kb.

      thnaks again for such a warm welcome.

    • Brennan Herr
      Member
      Post count: 403

      Bump

    • David CoulterDavid Coulter
      Member
      Post count: 2262

      Brennanherr, thanks for pushing this back up top. This is a great series on tuning. Great stuff. It all really helped me a lot. Thanks, dwc

    • TSCHMED
      Member
      Post count: 24

      Bump.

      There are several threads about building heavy arrows, adult arrows, EFOC arrows over on Saddlehunter so I thought bumping this thread  back up may be relevant to some guys.

      I’ve followed Dr Ed for several years, but I confess that I haven’t done justice to the system, but I fully intend to. I’m now shooting 545 gr, 18.5% FOC, single bevels out of 52# recurve, but I want to do better.

      Are there any new findings, new input, or new arrow components since this thread started?

      Thanks Dr Ed, Troy Breeding and Ranch Fairy.

    • Raymond CoffmanRaymond Coffman
      Moderator
      Post count: 1056

      Hey T

      The latest info available here will be on the Friends of foc forum And or scroll down to the Ashby studies / info on the bottom of the home page. I too have followed Dr Ed from the Natal study onward. He used to pop on here every once in awhile but Havn’t seen him recently. He turned over the study to a new group ( don’t recall the name)– maybe webmom will recall how to access them.

      Scout aka Ray

    • TSCHMED
      Member
      Post count: 24

      Thanks Ray,

      I forgot about the “Friends of efoc” sub forum. Thanks for reminding me about it.

      Tom

       

    • Robin ConradsRobin Conrads
      Admin
      Post count: 914

      Good morning! It is now called the Ashby Foundation. Here is the link: https://www.ashbybowhunting.org/

    • Raymond CoffmanRaymond Coffman
      Moderator
      Post count: 1056

      You bet tom anytime- let us know how it goes when you start building new arrows.

      Thanks webmom – I figured you could find it pretty quick

      Scout aka Ray

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