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    • William Warren
      Member
      Post count: 1384

      I know this question gets posted alot. But here goes.
      I was shooting my new Predator for the first time and I’m setting it up to shoot off the shelf. The arrows are kicking up slightly. Should I raise the knocking point?

      I don’t usually shoot off the shelf.

      Duncan

    • cody
      Post count: 87

      Well how did you like how she shot?? To answer your question. Yeah I think so. If its the back of the arrow kicking up you move it up if its the whole arrow shooting high then you move it down. I think thats right anyway. You could always paper tune it to get it exactly right.

    • Stephen Graf
      Moderator
      Post count: 2371

      My experience is that it is ok if the nock is a little high.

      If the arrow is entering the target on a good line left to right, but the nock is just a little high (inch or less) then I have found this to be no problem.

      I put my nock set on the string about 1/2 to 5/8 above center. This way I am sure to get a clean cast off the shelf. So if your arrow is closer to center than that, you may want to consider moving it up.

      I have found that some bows just like to shoot a bare shaft with the nock a little high. That’s what they do and it doesn’t matter once you get fletching on the arrow.

    • William Warren
      Member
      Member
      Post count: 1384

      Thanks Guys,
      That’s what I was thinking too but I ran out of daylight yesterday so today I will have more time to tinker with it.
      There was alot of sledding to do over that last couple of days. We don’t get this kind of snow pack here in NC very often.
      It cast cedar, hardwood and carbon almost to the same point of impact only the fletch end of the arrow was kicking up.
      The new squirrel busters I made flew sraight.
      Very smooth draw and release. Put some string leeches on last night and will see if that quitens it down. It is not nearly as noisy as my Hoyt is without silencers. I’ll also have to experiment some with brace height too.
      Duncan

    • David Petersen
      Member
      Post count: 2749

      Real easy to check. Just nock an arrow on top the nock rather than below and see what happens, though it may not need to be raised that high. In general you are correct about shelt-shooting requiring a higher nocking point. If your shelf has padded rest and back and they join at the junctio of the L, use an Xacto knife to carefully slice out maybe 1/8″ of padding from bottom and back to provide better feather clearance. You want some of my snow, bring a train car and come get all you want! 😆

    • cody
      Post count: 87

      Duncan
      I shoot about 1/2 inch above center. When I got mine it was pretty loud but I measured my brace height and it was around 6 1/2. Moved it up to around 8 and it quieten it down A LOT. Thats just what works for me

    • William Warren
      Member
      Member
      Post count: 1384

      David Petersen wrote: Real easy to check. Just nock an arrow on top the nock rather than below and see what happens, though it may not need to be raised that high. In general you are correct about shelt-shooting requiring a higher nocking point. If your shelf has padded rest and back and they join at the junctio of the L, use an Xacto knife to carefully slice out maybe 1/8″ of padding from bottom and back to provide better feather clearance. You want some of my snow, bring a train car and come get all you want! 😆

      Dave,
      I had not thought of placing the arrow on top of the knocking point just to check.

      I installed the rug that came with it although I would love to have a seal skin rest for it. Don’t know if those are even available now.

      Yeah, I know, they’ll make more, snow that is, so you can keep yours.

      Hey, I found a good use for a 4 wheeler though. That’s me in the plaid jacket.
      [/img]

    • William Warren
      Member
      Member
      Post count: 1384

      [quote=steve graf]My experience is that it is ok if the nock is a little high.

      I finally put a square on it and realized it was set a little high. So I moved it to the 1/8″ above center location. So I’m starting at zero and working up. Arrows still kick up a little. So now I’ll try Dave’s suggestion(s)work the knocking point higher on the string and see what happens. Maybe I have not moved it high enough.
      Thanks for everyones suggestions!
      Duncan

    • Hiram
      Post count: 484

      7 yards and let go a Bare shaft. Nock high, Lower the nock. Nock low, raise the nock.
      How is Bow tillered? Positive?=Top limb 1/8th to 1/4 weaker.
      Even=Both limbs equal.
      Negative=Top limb stronger.
      Split finger draw? Positive is a good thing, and will require 1/4 to 5/8’s string nock placement above 90.
      Three under? well I usually shoot well with Carbon thickness and even tiller at 3/8’s.
      Above 5/8’s? Well OK, but assume split finger shooter and would consider anything above 5/8’s excessive. Why? well your arrow line=POA AT 20 YDS. might be low. High anchors usually afford a look/hit line at 20 yds. I set my Bows with med weight arrows to POA at 20 yds. 550 or so out of 47-50 pound Bows. Course brace heighth can be adjusted to bring it down or up a little. I tune my brace while bare shafting. You must be very close to perfect to see the difference in a 1/4 inch of brace lol, OR A BETTER SHOT THAN ME, which is an easy task for the really good shooters:)

    • William Warren
      Member
      Member
      Post count: 1384

      Cody wrote: Duncan
      I shoot about 1/2 inch above center. When I got mine it was pretty loud but I measured my brace height and it was around 6 1/2. Moved it up to around 8 and it quieten it down A LOT. Thats just what works for me

      Thanks Cody and Hiram,
      If it will ever stop raining I’m going to tinker some with it. Thanks for the brace height info too. Was not sure what it should be.
      Hiram, I doubt if I’m better shot than you! On the bright side, at least I’m not destroying my good cedar arrows on a regular basis. No worries there 8)

    • Hiram
      Post count: 484

      Hey Duncan, I know you are a good hand with a lot of knowledge! Best thing I have found is to provide a small pivit point above the grip. A matchstick or a dab of JB weld putty will suffice. I like to have that little extra clearance from the shelf surface to give me a little more clearance.

    • William Warren
      Member
      Member
      Post count: 1384

      Hiram wrote: Hey Duncan, I know you are a good hand with a lot of knowledge! Best thing I have found is to provide a small pivit point above the grip. A matchstick or a dab of JB weld putty will suffice. I like to have that little extra clearance from the shelf surface to give me a little more clearance.

      Hey Hiram,
      That is an excellent idea. Now that you mention it, I noticed my JD Berry bow has a built up “knot” on the shelf under the sealskin rest. I was curious about that. Now it makes sense. You gotta remember I have been accustomed to shooting off of raised rests. This old dog can always learn a new trick! That’s what is so great about this site. no matter how much you know theres so much more to learn. Many on here call it a journey and so it is.

    • kingwouldbe
      Member
      Post count: 244

      David Petersen wrote: , use an Xacto knife to carefully slice out maybe 1/8″ of padding from bottom and back to provide better feather clearance. 😆

      Dave I use to think the same thing, the truth is the fleatching comes over the outside edge of the riser, that’s why you can shoot cock feather in and your feather will never touch the riser.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CO102jz8sFM

    • Hiram
      Post count: 484

      It’s the starting point (raised area). The vertical and horizontal begins before the arrow is shot!!!! This is what starts the proper rotation in the horizontal and vertical. Static positioning is the pre-requisite for the dynamics of Paradox during the shot. The goal is to gain the starting point most efficient to eliminate contact. That is why a cushion plunger works in the first few inchs of forward linear motion of the arrow. Assuming that the dynamic spine is correct, the proper starting point eliminates contact fore and aft (vertical) to some extent. Contact with the shelf area by the front of the arrow by a slightly raised portion directly over the horizontal torque point, starts the path of the arrow, and provides the right path for clearance during Paradox! Remember that the goal is to start the arrow with the right rotation (Clockwise for R/handed shooter), and eliminate as much horizontal and vertical torque as possible! The correct arrow will allow the S CURVE, to pass the riser in the horizontal. Brace height changes enables the forward or rearward movement of the Nodes of the arrow when inertia is forced on the back of the arrow by the string.

    • William Warren
      Member
      Member
      Post count: 1384

      Thanks Hiram,
      After shooting it some on Sunday with your suggested raised shelf (about 1/8″ under the rug) and tinkering with the knock point I am beginning to think arrow spine may be too heavy. Will try some lighter spined arrows this weekend. So far the only arrow I have shot from it that did not kick up was a hardwood arrow with banana fletch and a heavy game nabber tip. Does this mean my heavier spined arrows need a heavier field point? Or could the banana fletch be stabilizing the shaft quicker. (I normally would use a shield cut fletch with this bow)
      Duncan

    • Hiram
      Post count: 484

      Yes Duncan, the heavier spined shafts (too stiff) will be weakend by the heavier weight Tip (pile) by the resistance of the added mass on the front end of the arrow. In most cases I believe people are overspined with Carbon arrows especially. I used to shoot woodies years ago (getting older LOL) and it seemed to me at least, that the more consistantly spined arrows (Bare shaft tested to my Bow) were more important to good results than one being a little heavier than the other. I was shooting POC and would just make sire the grain was rinning para with the horizontal, and shorten each shaft a little at a time, to bareshaft each one into conformance. I just used a knife to roll cut the ends and hand taper outside while useing hot melt and dip the Pile in water, then bare shaft them individually. They shot great if I already had the finish on the bare shafts when I Bareshafted them. If I bareshafted, then applied the finish, I would sometimes find I had shortened them too much. They were stiffened by the finish. Some of the saturating finishes may make them weaker because of the added forward weight. I always used Tru-Oil over a RIT and de-natured alcohol finish. Sometimes if you are too stiff! You will get a false nock high indication on your bare shafts. Hold your Bow vertical while bareshafting!:)

    • William Warren
      Member
      Member
      Post count: 1384

      Finally got some good weather and time to piddle with my new Predator TD. Got some correct spine POC arrows and replaced the rug that came on the bow with Bear hair and leather plate. Braced it at 8 1/4″ and it shoots much better now!

    • cody
      Post count: 87

      Duncan…What spine did you go with??? I ordered a test kit from 3 Rivers and the 60-65 with a 145 grain head shot the best. But both the 50-55 and the 55-60 shot pretty good as well. Just curious what you went with

    • sapcut
      Post count: 159

      Can Ultra-EFOC really expand the range of arrow tuning?

      Here’s one for ya. I hand loaded an arrow for my Black Widow recurve being 71@31. The arrow is 32 in., 830 gr., 32.3% FOC. It flys perfectly out of my bow. Saturday it was shot out of two other bows as well.

      The other two Black Widow bows shot with me at the Spring Fling 3D shoot at Tannehill this past weekend. One of the bows was a SAX 49@30 and a PLIII 65@30. I shot MY arrow out of the PL. It shot absolutely perfect..a little slower… but perfect. The other guy shot MY arrow out of his SAX and he said he wanted every detail of how I built that arrow because it shot perfectly out of his bow. 70ish, 65 and 49 lbs. shot perfectly with same Ultra-FOC arrow.
      I am not sure how that happened but I’m leaning toward having so much weight up front. It was really amazing to us as we watched that occur.

      Let me know what you think.

      Richie

    • William Warren
      Member
      Member
      Post count: 1384

      Cody wrote: Duncan…What spine did you go with??? I ordered a test kit from 3 Rivers and the 60-65 with a 145 grain head shot the best. But both the 50-55 and the 55-60 shot pretty good as well. Just curious what you went with

      I had some 50-60’s on hand since I was shooting 55 to 60 pounds. I’ve gone back to 45 to 50 pounds of late. Age catchin up with me I guess. Or too much desk time :(.
      To answer your question my Predator is 50# at 28″ so I got some 45-50 spine POC and my 45 and 50 pound recurves like them better than the heavier spined arrows. (some of you are probably going “Duh” about now):D

    • William Warren
      Member
      Member
      Post count: 1384

      Sapcut wrote: Can Ultra-EFOC really expand the range of arrow tuning?
      Let me know what you think.

      Richie

      Richie
      That EFOC stuff is like Greek to me, or maybe I’m just resisting getting that meticulous, but I would guess the extra weight up front is making a difference. There are plenty of others on here better qualified to answer that than me. I hope some of them will weigh in.
      Duncan

    • youngbuck
      Post count: 7

      Great videos Kinkwouldbe

    • bow hunterkid23
      Post count: 21

      now (you guys probly already answered this earlier but im just double checking) but when i shoot my arrow flies to the right and hits the target at an angle. Like instead of the arrow being straight in hitting the target its angled to the right.. if that makes sense i hope 😕
      im thinking its my stance?

    • bruc
      Member
      Post count: 476

      The KingWouldbe videos seem to say more than a thousand words!!!!
      Bruce

    • bruc
      Member
      Post count: 476

      I looked closer and that S could happen where it is making contact with the riser. Never the less the video is amazing! Bowhand on both guys like that GM add.:)”LIKE A ROCK”
      I like your explanation Hiram! Wondering what nodes are?

      Bruce

    • Hiram
      Post count: 484

      http://www.ide-teknik.com/enode.htm
      Bruc, the nodes are the fore and aft points where the arrow oscillations cancel each other.
      When the string imparts force to the rear of the arrow,the arrow bends and oscillates.
      The two points where the bend meets the most resistance.

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