Home Forums Campfire Forum Bow Season vs. Crossbows

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    • Rocks
      Post count: 104

      I live in Alberta, possibly one of the greatest places to live as a hunter.

      We are currently fighting an upcoming battle, as our wildlife managers are considering adding crossbows to our existing archery only seasons for 2011. At this time our archery seasons state that archery equipment consists of bows drawn and held with muscular power in the presence of game. Our archery only seasons in many places have tags available for most game without having to draw LEH tags (which will change to LEH draw status if crossbows are allowed).

      Anyways, if anyone is interested to read the arguments for and against the inclusion of crossbows in bow season google alberta outdoorsmen forum. (I’m Rocks on there too).

      I’d also be interested in your views as I know there are many States that currently allow crossbows in archery season.

    • Stephen Graf
      Moderator
      Post count: 2371

      We are fighting crossbows in North Carolina as well. In fact, if it wasn’t for the efforts of the NCBA, North Carolina wouldn’t have an archery season at all this year. The commissioners voted to open the entire hunting season to guns last year. Only after much public pressure did they back off.

      We are again fighting the wildlife commission this year to keep crossbows out of archery season. There is a NC statute that says the wildlife commission must provide handicapped hunters with the advantage of crossbows during archery season. Now they are spitting in the face of the over 17000 wounded veterans and others that have special crossbow permits for archery.

      Why? Money. A crossbow manufacturer came to NC and set up a factory. All of a sudden crossbows are great. Nothing like a little extra tax base for a bankrupt state. The second reason is money. Insurance companies have lobbied the commissioners to kill the deer herd so they don’t have to pay claims on deer/car accidents.

      I personally don’t have anything against crossbows being used during the gun season. Or ideally, I’d like to see crossbows get their own season, just like black powder.

    • SteveMcD
      Member
      Post count: 870

      As much as I do not want the crossbow in the archery season. I don’t think it matters much anymore, the whole technology issue was closed to debate when they let the Compound Bow into the Archery Season. That horse got out of the barn years ago!

    • Ralph
      Moderator
      Post count: 2554

      I don’t like it either, so far we have lost the battle here in Texas, but with compounds shooting 360’+ fps AMO, like Steve said, the mistake was made a long time ago. And actually, bad as I hate to admit to it, crossbow technology has been around a lot longer than that of compounds and actually glass backed bows. But I still don’t like the concept of laying a weapon on a rest of some sort and looking through a scope then squeezing a trigger and it being called a bow. I don’t shoot compounds either, not saying that I haven’t for a period of my life ( that was so long ago those bows I had might be considered a “trad compound” class :lol:)). So, good luck in your cause and hopefully a bow will remain a bow during your season.

    • Stephen Graf
      Moderator
      Post count: 2371

      PSE has a crossbow that mounts to an AR-15.

      Then there is this one:

    • Rocks
      Post count: 104

      You guys are right about the compounds, there isn’t a whole lot of difference in performance between them and the crossbow, just a few mechanical differences. And from personal experience a different kind of hunter who wants to use one.

      We’ll fight this one, but I think I can see the writing on the wall, and it is going to happen. There have been rumblings for 4 or 5 years, but it is actually a proposed change now, so I think it may make it in. Lots of pressure from manufacturers, for sure.

    • darkinstine
      Post count: 1

      I understand the dislike for crossbows but to think that they are somehow not bows is silly. The crossbow has a great history and it also allows people who wish to hunt with something other than a gun the option to do so. I will eventually have to either use a crossbow or go to a rifle due to nerve damage in my left arm. I am hoping to get 3 or 4 more seasons out of myself before having to switch. I would pick a crossbow over a rifle any day. We all have our idea of what a ethical or good hunt is and it is a bit different for everyone. We need to be much more worried about anti hunting groups than crossbow users.

    • Stephen Graf
      Moderator
      Post count: 2371

      darkinstine wrote: I understand the dislike for crossbows but to think that they are somehow not bows is silly.

      The big difference is this : A bow must be drawn and held in the presence of game. A crossbow is cocked and fired with the pull of a trigger, like a gun.

      The design and operation of a crossbow is more like an airgun than a bow.

      If you don’t believe that it is important to draw and hold your bow in the presence of a deer, then this difference is mute. This is the first step in losing the archery seasons that were fought for so hard by folks like Fred Bear, Glen St. Charles, Ben Pearson, and others.

      darkinstine wrote: I will eventually have to either use a crossbow or go to a rifle due to nerve damage in my left arm

      I wish you well. Even though I oppose allowing crossbows for general use in archery season, I support their use by people who can no longer draw and hold a bow.

    • Chris Shelton
      Post count: 679

      Crossbows really irretate me! And the “type” of hunter that generally uses them also bothers me. Now if you are medically unable to use a regular bow, my mean words definatly do not go to you. However the regular person with no physical limitations is whom I am refering to. It just seems that they want things easy? So I know that this particular profile of person will never experience a hunt like we will. So for that I am sorry for them! If they are using crossbows because they are concerned about accuracy then they have no business in the woods during archery season where the most proficient woodsman gather during the early part of the season. I personally do not like crossbows because of the ammunition they launch. They are alot lighter, and we all know about arrow weight compared to penetration, of course they have brass usually and what not, but still. I will probably fight the use of crossbows in the hands of a able bodied individual during my sacred season till the death:twisted:

    • lssa
      Post count: 38

      we have them here in ddelaware was made official month ago so i guess we will see what happens next fall

    • SteveMcD
      Member
      Post count: 870

      I have to agree with Chris. If it were just those that were physically challenged using the crossbow in the archery season, I would say fine. The problem is.. the majority of potential crossbow hunters are just gun hunters looking for an “easy in” into the Archery season. 👿 Heck most Compounders don’t even start practicing until a couple of weeks before the season begins. 🙄

      If I am an Elitist. Ok – I can live with that. 8):D

    • covert
      Post count: 14

      I actually think that here in NY they should allow them. I have no interest in hunting with anything but my ’73 Grizzly but if someone wants to use a crossbow it’s no skin off my nose.

      The State is always hurting for money so I’d bet they could get away with making and selling a new crossbow license. If nothing else, allow them in the late muzzleloader season. If archers need to share the late woods with the smokepoles anyway what’s the difference if someone is using a crossbow?

      I know several people who hunt with compounds and like you said, they go out and fling a few arrows the week before season opens and call it good. Then we end up with deer like the buck by my house this March that was still walking around with an arrow sticking out of his haunch. I’d rather the guy who’s not going to practice anyway go out and set the sights on the deer, squeeze the trigger and kill it rather than fling arrows randomly towards the deer.

      I always hear compound guys complaining about the “mechanical advantage”. Look at all of the clear “mechanical advantages” they have over the traditional archers without us complaining. I don’t care how many advantages they have any more than I care about the advantages the crossbows have. As long as they stay on the right side of the Posted signs I’m happy.

    • SteveMcD
      Member
      Post count: 870

      covert wrote: The State is always hurting for money so I’d bet they could get away with making and selling a new crossbow license.

      Hi, Covert… I understand what you are saying. However, being a county secretary of federated sportsman’s club. I see what goes on in Council and in Albany, and you hit the proverbial nail on the head!. New York is like other states, a crosbow license is just a quick fix for badly needed funds. How about forcing government to fix the gross mis-management and waste instead!

    • covert
      Post count: 14

      SteveMcD wrote: [quote=covert]The State is always hurting for money so I’d bet they could get away with making and selling a new crossbow license.

      Hi, Covert… I understand what you are saying. However, being a county secretary of federated sportsman’s club. I see what goes on in Council and in Albany, and you hit the proverbial nail on the head!. New York is like other states, a crosbow license is just a quick fix for badly needed funds. How about forcing government to fix the gross mis-management and waste instead!

      Oh yes that would be ideal, but I think we both know what the chances of that happening are! 🙄

    • trapperDave
      Post count: 62

      I really dont get all the fuss about it. I shoot what I want, you shoot what you want, and BillyBob down the street can shoot his crossbow. Big deal. To each his own. Were all brothers/sisters of the hunt.

    • Bloodless
      Post count: 103

      TrapperDave — I must respectfully disagree with you. Here’s the big deal: long ago bowhunters in all states worked hard to get privileged seasons — longer, earlier, camo, etc. — arguing that the special challenges and difficulties of “primitive” hunting (then all traditional) justifies these privileges. When compounds came into the game, that “primitive weapons” argument was dangerously weakened. But the botton line remains “a bow held at full draw with no mechanical assistance.” While crossbows are historical, they are not primitive by this near-universal legal standard. Note that NRA is supporting allowing cross-guns in archery seasons! Why might that be? Using cross-guns as a foot in the door to, the next step could be to claim the whole “primitive” justification for special seasons is bogus. So this is not just about “live and let live” so far as what hunting weapons we choose to use. It’s about maintaining meaningful archery-only seasons. It’s about politics and an overcrowded world. Bloodless

    • Stephen Graf
      Moderator
      Post count: 2371

      Bloodless is spot on.

      I would add that because cross guns are so much more effective than bows, more deer will be taken. This will result in shorter archery seasons, more regulation, and / or a less healthy heard due to an out of balance buck/doe ratio.

      Last year North Carolina tried to eliminate archery season all together. When that plan received too much criticism, they changed it to allow cross guns and shortening the season by a week. Nibble, nibble.

      The root problem, in my humble opinion, is that our society has moved too far away from nature. It values insurance company profit margins and petunias more than the native flora and fauna of our country.

      OK, everybody read “a Sand County Almanac” one more time!

    • Patrick
      Member
      Post count: 1148

      Steve Graf wrote: Last year North Carolina tried to eliminate archery season all together. When that plan received too much criticism, they changed it to allow cross guns and shortening the season by a week. Nibble, nibble.

      😯 I had no clue! Who was the primary force behind the plan?

    • M
      Post count: 107

      I think we should all just go hunting.

    • SteveMcD
      Member
      Post count: 870

      M wrote: I think we should all just go hunting.

      I agree. Because the whole “primitive” argumant is Bogus. Anyone who thinks a Compound is a Bow drawn without mechanical assistance is disillusioned. 🙄 This horse got out of barn decades ago! 😉

    • William Warren
      Member
      Post count: 1384

      Looks like things got spirited around here while I was away!

      Yeah, I don’t much care for cross bows. I have my doubts as to their effectiveness and I think those who choose them will be disappointed when the “range” isn’t what they thought it would be.

      I’m more disappointed in our NCWRC playing games with our seasons just to appease what amounts to a commercial play by the crossbow industry.

      On the flip side my uncle has MS and might benefit from crossbows but he is leagally disabled and can do so now. He has one of those vises that holds a rifle or shotgun and his wife sets him out in the edge of the field with it when he feels like going.

      I hope this turns out to be much ado about nothing. Since compounds perform way better than crossbows who would switch to a crossbow? There will be that initial pitch that crossbows are easier and anyone can shoot one, etc. but they’ll find out after they spent all that money. What was that PT Barnum used to say?

      Duncan

    • rayborbon
      Post count: 298

      Crossbows have a place. In the modern firearms season.

    • Stephen Graf
      Moderator
      Post count: 2371

      Patrick wrote: [quote=Steve Graf]Last year North Carolina tried to eliminate archery season all together. When that plan received too much criticism, they changed it to allow cross guns and shortening the season by a week. Nibble, nibble.

      😯 I had no clue! Who was the primary force behind the plan?

      2 forces:

      1 – a crossbow company opened a “manufacturing facility” in the state. More taxes, more smiles.
      2 – Insurance companies tired of paying for deer/car crashes started lobbying the wildlife commissioners. Apparently the wildlife commissioners couldn’t hear what the insurance companies were saying, so the insurance lobby took the commissioners down to the Caribbean where it was nice and quiet. Then all of a sudden the commissioners understood what a nuisance archery season and deer are.

      It’s amazing how understanding folks will be if you put them under a tropical umbrella with a good drink and maybe a nice girl in a grass skirt… (this last part is rumor. But it makes for a good story.)

      Fact is, the commissioners went against the recommendations of the wildlife biologists and the general public. Why? More money, less deer.

    • Kegan
      Post count: 43

      They allowed the first season with compounds in archery season here in PA. As expected, every gun hunter who really wanted to down Bambi bought a crossbow and archery license. That’s all you hear now. Frankly, I don’t care what people USE, but what it’s classified as. There’s a different season for flintlocks than other muzzle loaders here, why not just add crossbows to the “All Muzzle loader” season. You still have to buy an extra tag and get some more season, but then there’s no chance for the destruction of archery season. It seems that although there is that driving stupidity in the compound market, a number of folks are getting wise to actual effectiveness, good hunting practices, and the enjoyment of 3D. However so far, those using crossbows are either people wanting to blow money on a new toy or gun hunters who don’t care. And we already have more than enough of those.

    • William Warren
      Member
      Post count: 1384

      Kinetic Bolt Gun Season???

    • Hiram
      Post count: 484

      trapperDave wrote: I really dont get all the fuss about it. I shoot what I want, you shoot what you want, and BillyBob down the street can shoot his crossbow. Big deal. To each his own. Were all brothers/sisters of the hunt.

      Best wishes with your approval of “the denigration of Bowhunting”! A CrossBow? No such thing unless you turn one horizontal and shoot it off your feet! String Rifle, or stocked static tension device etc.

      Most states outlawed draw locks from compounds! Why?
      Same thing/except vertical.

      Here is your Mindset. Oh what the heck, let everybody do they want. Dilution of the Bow! Hand held, drawn and shot, held under tension by the HANDS!

      This same “Liberal” mindset carries over into things besides Archery. Ah heck, who cares if they “ban hunting” in that state, We can hunt here!

      Bowhunting is Bowhunting!!!!!
      Not a String rifle Gizmo with a laser Gizmo to make all the Slob hunters Happy! Slobs? Yes, most people that take the easiest route are either lazy, Just wanting to Kill something, or Poachers! Which by the way, the String rifle is easier to get out of the truck window than a compound Bow!
      Slobs are not my Brother/Sister! Bowhunters who are sincere about preserving the Original Intent of Archery season are!!!

    • Hiram
      Post count: 484

      M wrote: I think we should all just go hunting.

      Yep, and just do nothing! The old “Can’t we just all get along” attitude equals standing for nothing!

      You must not love Bowhunting as much as I do. If you did, you would be principle driven to preserve our Heritage!

      Do you love it? If you do not answer quickly, re-evaluate why you Bow hunt. The definition of a Crossbow could be duplicated by other devices in the future. Stand up, or keep your mouth shut so the rest of us who want to preserve our Heritage can do so with out comments from the Peanut Gallery!

    • Hiram
      Post count: 484

      darkinstine wrote: I understand the dislike for crossbows but to think that they are somehow not bows is silly. The crossbow has a great history and it also allows people who wish to hunt with something other than a gun the option to do so. I will eventually have to either use a crossbow or go to a rifle due to nerve damage in my left arm. I am hoping to get 3 or 4 more seasons out of myself before having to switch. I would pick a crossbow over a rifle any day. We all have our idea of what a ethical or good hunt is and it is a bit different for everyone. We need to be much more worried about anti hunting groups than crossbow users.

      I hope that your condition stabilizes or gets better so you can Bow Hunt But, do not condone throwing Bow Hunting away for the rest of us because of your Medical issues!! Do not sell Bow hunter out, Period! Lobby for a Handicapped draw, or just hunt with a string rifle during Rifle seasons!

    • bruc
      Member
      Post count: 476

      Well said Hiram! Still able to use the crossbow in a rifle or muzzleloader season, at least in Manitoba.
      Bruce

    • Hiram
      Post count: 484

      BRUC wrote: Well said Hiram! Still able to use the crossbow in a rifle or muzzleloader season, at least in Manitoba.
      Bruce

      Thanks! But I only echo the truth!!!!Nugent is a Crossbow supporter too. That is his right, but I do not agree that he and I share the same principles and visions for Bowhunting. I do not pretend to be an elitest by shooting Recurves or longbows, I just believe that it has gone too far already with the admission of Compounds in the 80% let-off catagory, along with soda straw arrows! No! I am not griping the Compound/it is already in. The String rifle and it’s soon to come variants are not Bows!!!!They are wrong by definition/and letting them be used during Archery Hunts! Technology is good! as long as it does not dilute the past! I think Archery is about “the Bow” and not technology! Now tell that to the Compound Bow 350 fps. speed demons! What a joke, speed only means a flatter trajectory/not the basis for efficiency in the field.:)

    • bruc
      Member
      Post count: 476

      Actually Hiram I don’t know who Nugent is or do I care! My point was that somebody that loves and beholds the crossbow has every opportunity to use it in Manitoba.
      It can be used during the muzzleloader season,which is another” bloody farce all of its own”.And it can be used in the regular firearm season. And I believe in elk and moose rifle draw seasons as well. The crossbow owners have no reason to whine as they have lots of opportunity to use it in these seasons.Lord please give us the common sense to keep it this way!
      Bruce

    • Hiram
      Post count: 484

      Yes! I do see the techno muzzleloaders over the Caplocks/flintlocks drawing as a comparison only. Blessings

    • Konrad
      Post count: 62

      Crossbows vs.…

      When large scale archery was introduced to the battlefield, it was considered by many to be cowardly.
      When firearms were introduced as weapons, they were considered by many to be cowardly…
      The hunting community complained the cap lock ignition system “wasn’t fair” when first introduced.
      The hunting community complained the breach loading firearm was not fair when introduced. Many considered the repeating rifle unsportsmanlike (i.e. Winchester lever action).

      The muzzle loading community (once known as “Traditional Firearms Enthusiasts”) fought long and hard for a separate (from “modern firearms) hunting season and eventually was successful.

      Enterprising folks saw an opportunity to sell more equipment and introduced the modern muzzle loader that in many states is legal for use during what was once known as “Traditional Firearms Season”, now euphemistically referred to as “Muzzle Loading Season”

      Anyone with half a brain can see there is no relationship (other than the fact that projectile and propellant are introduced from the front of the barrel) between a cap lock Hawken and a Thompson Center Encore mounted with a variable magnification Leupold scope.

      The archery community said (and in some circles still does) the compound bow is unsportsmanlike and would see it removed from an archery hunting season. The debate over whether a crossbow is “fair” for the pursuit of game during archery season is somewhat like a difference without a distinction.

      Practice, scope or not, with even a modern crossbow, will not get you much more than 40 yards effective range. The limitations of science apply across the board. The crossbow can no more gain an advantage (other than sight picture stability) than the compound. Both of their effective ranges are not much further than the traditional longbow.
      Oh, and by the way, is fiberglass laminated construction with epoxy resin binders fair?

      This particularly applies to the current light/fast arrow craze.

      Those enamored of spending time in the woods will continue to do so regardless of weapon choice. Those who opt for the crossbow looking for the “magic solution” to their archery problems will soon be disappointed and drop out. Historically, those who were issued the crossbow were eventually issued a firearm. Dedicated practice was not inherently part of their character makeup.

      I own a number of weapons ranging from a boar spear to a couple of 375 Holland and Holland chambered rifles. When in the field, I always feel like my quarry has the upper hand.

      I for one would prefer more folks with quiet, limited range weapons in the woods rather than more people armed with weapons they might be tempted to use at 300 yards.

      The more folks we have hunting, the stronger we are as a community to resist the anti-hunting, anti-weapons crowd.

    • David Petersen
      Member
      Post count: 2749

      Konrad — let’s not hikack this thread to something else, but I must say I absolutely disagree with your last sentence and have the personal experience fighting these battles to back my opinion. Consider who benefits when we be in to the concept of “we need more hunters to protect hunting from nonhunters.” The industry! Brother we don’t need more hunters — please come take about half or more of those who are crowding me out more every year here in CO — we need more better and politically informed and active hunters. Quality of quantity, that should be our goal always.

      In general (that is, no longer speaking directly to brother Konrad) — the laid-back attitude of “let everyone do what they want, shoot what they want, etc., so long as it’s legal” is another failure to understand the “real deal” out there in the hunting woods. OK, I can go with that, so long as the weapon is lethal and humane and thus ethical, up to a point (I draw the line at vehicle-mounted .50 cal rifles, for example). But the fact is that archery seasons were almost exclusively based on traditional and primitive bows and that’s why they’re so liberal. Start packing modern hi-tech weapons into what is meant to be a low-success season and you not only unfairly disadvantage those of us who are trying to play the game by the original rules, but you also put the “primitive” privileges at great risk, because they aren’t primitive any more. I agree with putting the cross-guns in the same short season with the modern hi-tech “black powder” and “muzzle loader” rifles that don’t necessarily even load from the muzzle any more and almost never use black powder. And that season should NOT be in archery season. Without rules we have anarchy. And anarchy sucks. If you folks who want to let everyone into archery season and want more hunters at all costs have great hunting grounds that are so uncrowded as to allow a overall good hunting experience with no limits — please share with the rest of us became I for one am hurting to find undisturbed hunting grounds where the animals aren’t being pushed around and panicked … and it sure ain’t the antis who are doing it. 😥 Dave

    • Hiram
      Post count: 484

      Amen! selah

    • SteveMcD
      Member
      Post count: 870

      No one could have said it better, Dave.

      Now… I’ll probably be tarred and feathered for this but, I do have to think about this…….. To my knowledge it was said that Fred Bear stated he regretted marketing the Compound bow. Honestly, yeah right.. he cried all the way to bank over it! I’m sure! Now today.. Bear Archery is heavily in the Crossbow market as well. I wonder if Fred was still owner and CEO of Bear Archery today, if they would be marketing Crossbows. Famous Archer – yes. Famous Bowhunter – yes. Famous Businessman – YES.

      Bear Archery marketed the Compound specifically to the Gun Hunter. “Become a Two Season Hunter” campaign.

    • Konrad
      Post count: 62

      Dave and Steve, points well made!

      I was in no fashion suggesting there should be a “Hands Off” approach to hunting regulations.
      I live in one of the most heavily regulated states in the Union (Washington State). I think perhaps mandatory classroom training; field testing and an appropriate fee should accompany a crossbow stamp applied to a general hunting license.

      I do, however, stand by the idea we need a stronger hunting community, not a smaller one.

      Say what you will about some of the nuts who are members of the National Rifle Association. Their strength in numbers (read that membership dues and contributions) is what has carried the battle to protect our firearms ownership rights to DC repeatedly…and won.

      Crowded hunting lands are managed here by controlled hunts (black bear, cougar, whitetail, blacktail, moose, sheep, mountain goat and elk) where selected numbers of hunters are issued permits covering specific dates and areas. Harvests are strictly supervised by the men and women in the funny green hats.

      I think the fact that there will continue to be increasing numbers of “hunters” trying to spend time a field is inescapable.
      They just aren’t making fewer people!
      We need to come to grips with that fact before it gets out of control not after all the game has been slaughtered.

      I think we are closer together on this subject than seen at first blush.

    • LimbLover
      Post count: 299

      Well said Dave. I feel that the crossbow should be during rifle/muzzleloader season. Not archery season.

      Just one step closer to having one hunting season for everyone and I’ll never hunt on public land again.

    • Stephen Graf
      Moderator
      Post count: 2371

      SteveMcD wrote:
      Bear Archery is heavily in the Crossbow market as well.

      I don’t think so… They started down that path several years ago, but decided not to produce crossbows. I am sure it was a business choice not a sportsman’s choice. But still, lets keep the facts straight… 🙂

      What we have here is a slippery slope. Where does the line get drawn? I think the clearest distinction left to us down this slope is to say that – a bow must be drawn and held by the archer in the presence of game. If the weapon doesn’t meet this simple clear definition, it isn’t a bow. That’s my humble opinion. and I am sticking to it.

    • SteveMcD
      Member
      Post count: 870

      Steve Graf wrote: [quote=SteveMcD]
      Bear Archery is heavily in the Crossbow market as well.

      I don’t think so… They started down that path several years ago, but decided not to produce crossbows. I am sure it was a business choice not a sportsman’s choice. But still, lets keep the facts straight… 🙂

      Yes, they pulled the Crossbow Off the market due to product liability issues and a faulty safety mechanicism. When the U.S. Government makes you pull your entire product line. That’s tough to recover from. 🙄 There were FIVE Bear Archery Crossbows marketed from 2004 to 2006 – all of them recalled by the Consumer Product Safety Commission. Looks like they were in a rush to get in on the market! :roll::roll:

    • Cottonwood
      Post count: 311

      As long as the Montana Bowhunters Association has a say in the matter, the regs will stay the same and that is NO Crossbows allowed in the Archery Only Season.

      I for one, do not want to be walking, stalking the woods with someone out there that has a cocked and locked shoulder mounted bolt shooter.

      PSE came out with the Tac15 that mounts to the lower of the AR15 format rifle, and this shoots bolts at a whopping 400 plus FPS with 1/4″ accuracy at 100 yards. This could pose deadly consquences for the bowhunter that is camo’d up and hiding, then moves.

      I say let crossbows stay where they are, and that is in our general hunting season with the rifle shooters.

      JMHO

    • Cottonwood
      Post count: 311

      steve graf wrote: PSE has a crossbow that mounts to an AR-15.

      Then there is this one:

      That is the Tac15 upper mounted on the lower of the AR15

    • bruc
      Member
      Post count: 476

      Well said Cottonwood. They still can hunt but in rifle and muzzle season. Same opportunities as gun hunters. Everyone should be happy:D
      Bruce

    • Barred Owl
      Post count: 2

      He “cocks” his “weapon” – grabs the “fore-stock” and “shoulders” the “stock” – he “acquires” his “target” though the “mounted scope” – tiring, he lays the “weapon” on a horizontal limb – “stock” still shouldered – finger on the “trigger” – finally he squeezes the custom “trigger mechanism” and “fires” a “bolt” at 400+ fps. At age 34 and in good physical condition the callow hunter thinks to himself, “screw those trad guys, I just dumped another deer at 67 yards – do that with your stick bow.”

      Crossbows have been around for ages – essentially recurve bows attached to a piece of wood that can be shouldered. But that doesn’t mean they should have the same access to bow seasons premised on; hand-held, hand-drawn, bows and arrows.

      Our culture grows coarse, our children have little knowledge of history, let alone archery.

      Hope we don’t turn out like the silly socialists in Greece — their once proud archery culture is long gone.

    • Cottonwood
      Post count: 311

      It is however a cocked and lock shoulder fired device that usually has a scope on it.

      Here is what the http://www.probowsociety.org/xbow.html has to say about it, and agree 100%.

      I’m very thankful that here in Montana, I do not have to worry about some fool that trips the trigger at the least movement in the brush, where I could be camo’d out with my longbow. I really hope we here in Montana, never see the day where these are legal use during “Archery Only Season”

      And that is just my .02 cents on the matter, and my feelings are set in stone.

    • David Petersen
      Member
      Post count: 2749

      Bravo Barn Owl — are you perhaps a college English professor? That’s sure creatively well-writ! and Cottonwood, and all us others who don’t mind that other persuasions “get their fair share” so long as they don’t get theirs and a piece of ours too! It’s not about “a guy should be able to hunt with his weapon of choice.” It’s about protecting our nominally “primitive weapons” archery seasons (so called here in CO at least) from constant, well-funded pressure to open it up to … well, just about everything! Our shrinking hunting areas already are FAR too crowded (unless you have access to lots of private land). We don’t need more hunters at the cost of pretend-archery weapons that dumb everything down and attract the lowest denominator of “sportsmen.” We need more Real Hunters who want a personal challenge, not a store-bought easy way out. Forgive my echo sound, but “Crossguns and (what do we call them now since so many don’t load from the muzzle and don’t use black powder?) fake “primitive” rifles belong in rifle season. Not in archery season! Not in elk rut! As Don Thomas has so wisely said, “To hell with the ‘Big Tent’ theory!” dave

    • Hiram
      Post count: 484

      As Don Thomas has so wisely said, “To hell with the ‘Big Tent’ theory!”
      I like that! I like it allot!:)

    • JUST_ME1962
      Post count: 6

      here in Nova Scotia Canada crossbows will be part of the youth season (thrid week of archery season0 and the regular gun season. within a short time i suspect the xbow will be used in the full season. just a matter of time as most areas will find out.

      the bowhunters associations are in favour of a stamp for each weapon (our wildlife stamp funds currently go to habitat projects)for each type of weapon you use. At present the only stamp is the archery stamp and you only need it if you hunt with bow and arrow during the archery season, none is needed if you you the general deer season.

      with a stamp system in place we’ll be able to get the kill ratios for each type of weapon and hopefully, if need, be able to preserve the “primitiveness’ our our archery season.

      that said the more ethical and educated hunters we can have in the woods the better for all of us.

      good luck to everyone.

    • SteveMcD
      Member
      Post count: 870

      I would totally agree with not allowing the crossbow into the Archery Season, except for one thing……. we already let technology takeover when the Hollis Allen Compound Bow designed specifically for physically challenged bowhunters was allowed into the Archery Season.

      I think all of us do what we do as traditionalists because we do what we love, we are not followers. We blaze our own trails. It may be elitest to some, but I can live with that.

      From David Petersen’s perspective the rank and file of bowhunters and hunters in general in Colorado and the Rocky Mountain west in general has been growing as development has been growing over several decades in the west. Is hunting getting too crowded in the west, maybe so? But the reality is… the average age of a hunter in this country is 54, my age. And I ain’t getting any younger. Maybe different access methods and permit quotas are necessary. But if hunting is to remain healthy it needs to be passed on to the next generation. We do need more hunters, as well as better hunters.

      The crossbow is about retention of older hunters and recruitment of new hunters. In my low opinion.. that’s not a bad thing.

      Yeah, I like to shake the beehive too! 🙂

    • Treetopflier
      Post count: 146

      Steve — your points are understood. My point echoes Dave’s and some others … do what you want so long as it’s ethical and legal, but not in MY archery season. Along with ORVs, mechanical broadheads and lots of other junk the publishers of TBM won’t allow ads for in the magazine, is crossbows. I applaud them for that. From here, Steve and I and others could enter a gentlemanly discussion about whether passing along bowhunting to future generations and getting more hunters is worth the trade-off of a technologically dumbed-down hunter who knows more about computerized gadgets than he or she does basic woodsmanship skills. But I won’t go there as others have said it already better than I could and it’s a slightly different discussion. I’ll simply say again that I grew up hunting with stickbows and I’ll die hunting with a stickbow or quit when I can’t pull the weight any longer, and I’ll continue fighting the intrusion of gadgets into bowhunting seasons wherever I live. While compounds was long ago a done deal, back before we had any unity or organization to fight them, and most of us in fact were shooting them, it’s still a winnable battle against X-guns in most states. Sorry to gab so long. Snuffy

    • SteveMcD
      Member
      Post count: 870

      Well said, Snuffy. And I highly respect your position on this. What worries me is sportsman fighting sportsman.

      I too started with a Stickbow some 40+ years ago. Traditional Only! And I thank God I still have the muscle and rotator cuffs to do so! 😆

    • Hiram
      Post count: 484

      http://www.unionsportsmen.org/index.php/hunting/category/the_x_factor_are_crossbows_bad_for_bowhunting

      The fear of losing traditional bow hunters to crossbows seems to be turning into a reality. In Ohio, the first state to legalize crossbows for all deer seasons, the number of hunters who use crossbows now outnumber traditional bow hunters. They also kill more deer. But that’s exactly why some biologists want to increase their use. As deer herds continue to spiral out of control and hunter numbers continue to dwindle, wildlife managers struggle with effective methods for controlling those deer. In urban and suburban areas, crossbows may be the ticket.

      No big tent for me to get under here!
      Ohio proves the theory that Crossbows will outnumber even compound Bows! The drive to use easier methods equals larger kill numbers for the management.
      Why not loosen up the number of management tags for Bow hunters?

      “They are not, however, any more effective than traditional archery equipment, at least not if you measure that effectiveness by overall hunter success rates. Crossbow and traditional bow hunters in Ohio had roughly equal success rates, said Mike Tonkovich, a wildlife research biologist with the Ohio Division of Wildlife. Although crossbows do shoot flatter and farther than standard archery equipment, he’s not sure why they share similar success rates.”
      That is easy, The operator does not have to draw it! No movement. One could just lay down under a Camo blanket and wait on a game trail, shoot them as they pass! Just like a rifle, HMMMMMMMMMM, Stringrifle.

    • WICanner
      Post count: 136

      The manufacturers will push technology to sell more this year, and next year, and the year after. Look what has happened with the compound. The crossbow is another extension to the compound bow as far as they are concerned. It is another “product” to sell. But if there are no seasons to use crossbows, they will sell less of them. So they will be pushing the usage of crossbows anyway they can. Fellas, it’s a virus run wild, a scurvy, a pox. If a “bow” can go off accidentally, it ain’t a BOW! And if the compounds keep advancing, where is the line going to be drawn for them? None of this can be addressed with our heads in the sand. We need to draw a line IN THAT SAND. And crossbows can’t be allowed to cross over into our bow seasons. 😡

    • epenfold
      Post count: 30

      while I agree that a cross bow has historical value going back to the midevil times, I also agree that there is a season for them. While we may not all agree on what season to put them in may be there can be a middle ground, prehaps no magnifaction devices(scopes) in the archery season. Colorado does not allow a muzzleloader to have a scope during muzzleloading season but I can take the same gun up in regular rifle season with a scope, your choice.

      This also bring up the debate of the aging hunter, depending on who you ask or what report you read the youth are not getting into hunting or there is to many hunters of any age. And as many of you have commented in this and other forum post that I have read, several may have to switch to gun or cross bow for various reasons.

      While I do not like the idea of cross bows in the archery season technology continues to advance and the debate will be on going. This reminds me of an article in the apr/may 2010 issue “Hunting the hard way” page 93.

    • Hiram
      Post count: 484

      WIcanner wrote: The manufacturers will push technology to sell more this year, and next year, and the year after. Look what has happened with the compound. The crossbow is another extension to the compound bow as far as they are concerned. It is another “product” to sell. But if there are no seasons to use crossbows, they will sell less of them. So they will be pushing the usage of crossbows anyway they can. Fellas, it’s a virus run wild, a scurvy, a pox. If a “bow” can go off accidentally, it ain’t a BOW! And if the compounds keep advancing, where is the line going to be drawn for them? None of this can be addressed with our heads in the sand. We need to draw a line IN THAT SAND. And crossbows can’t be allowed to cross over into our bow seasons. 😡

      YEEEEESSSSSSS!

    • SteveMcD
      Member
      Post count: 870

      Just for everyone’s information, I stand corrected a recent survey of hunter dynamics and habits from 2005 to 2008 show the nationwide average age of hunters to be 44 years old.

    • Cottonwood
      Post count: 311

      epenfold wrote: while I agree that a cross bow has historical value going back to the midevil times.

      Do a bit a research on the crossbow and you’ll discover they were used for war, not hunting and were a failure at that over the longbow. Look at the bolts that were used back in the midevil times, the points were designed for armor penetration. The crossbow was not a hunting weapon however.

      http://fourriverscharter.org/projects/Inventions/pages/europe_crossbows.htm

    • Hiram
      Post count: 484

      I recently petitioned Arkansas G&F that their definition of the crossbow was wrong! No outcome or answer. Think it would take litigation to get an answer.

    • covert
      Post count: 14

      WIcanner wrote: If a “bow” can go off accidentally, it ain’t a BOW!

      Really though this can cover any compound used with a release too. I know guys who’ve had their release fail at full or mid-draw letting it fire the arrow prematurely/accidentally.

    • WICanner
      Post count: 136

      I suppose that is true concerning release failure, but my initial thought is of the crossbow cocked with high pressure and force, held by a mechanical device or trigger. I know of someone near me who hunts on the WI disability exemption. He has troubles cocking the thing, which itself is a risky proposition. To me, it looks like he is setting a bear trap. He also complains about the limb striking branches or other obstacles in the woods when firing. I think if you owned one of these things, it would make you uninsurable. If you are already disabled, why expose yourself to further injury..:?

    • Hiram
      Post count: 484

      WIcanner wrote: I suppose that is true concerning release failure, but my initial thought is of the crossbow cocked with high pressure and force, held by a mechanical device or trigger. I know of someone near me who hunts on the WI disability exemption. He has troubles cocking the thing, which itself is a risky proposition. To me, it looks like he is setting a bear trap. He also complains about the limb striking branches or other obstacles in the woods when firing. I think if you owned one of these things, it would make you uninsurable. If you are already disabled, why expose yourself to further injury..:?

      Canner, you make way too much sense!!! I LIKE the analogy “Bear trap”.

    • amosss
      Post count: 5

      I have no problem with someone that IS TRULY HANDICAP using a crossbow or compound,but when you come right down to it about 85% of the hunters that use them are gun hunters that want to get in the woods early and kill all they can.If the NC wildlife is able to do what they are trying to do you won’t have to worry about crossbows or compounds they will all have guns,and true hunters will have to travle to other states for peacful hunting.

    • Hiram
      Post count: 484

      What are they doing in NC?

    • Stephen Graf
      Moderator
      Post count: 2371

      Go back to page 1 of this thread and read my posts for the full story.

      In short, the Wildlife Resource Commission of NC tried to do away with all primitive seasons in 2009. That’s right gun season from Sept 15 to Jan 1.

      This was met with too much resistance. So they cut another week out of Bow season and gave it to muzzle loaders. Then they allowed cross bows in to what’s left of archery season.

      Down east, Bow season is now 3 weeks long, while gun season is 12 weeks long.

    • Don Thomas
      Member
      Post count: 334

      This is a depressing topic, and an outstanding illustration of the dark side of the American Way: He with the most money usually wins. However, efforts to assign blame for this sad state of affairs shouldn’t overlook one of the real culprits: ourselves. If every bowhunter in America had swarmed their state Division of Wildlife (or whatever) the day the first compound appeared and demanded that these devices be excluded from archery seasons, the manufacturers might not have had sufficient motivation to pour money into the R&D that led to the modern compound. But, we were all too busy hunting, and now we’re paying the price. At the least, we should absorb the meaning of this lesson and be better prepared the next time around, whatever the issue might be. Dn

    • Stephen Graf
      Moderator
      Post count: 2371

      You make a valid observation. But I don’t think back then people could see clearly the consequences of allowing this new technology in. In hind sight it is clear…

      But getting the average american worked up enough to defend anything of the natural world is next to impossible. Where is the outrage over the BP oil spill? Drive by a BP station lately? They should be abandoned, but business goes on as usual. The list of environmental, social, and human outrages is too long to list. How can the simple bow compete for attention when the entire ocean gets barely a yawn?

      I spent an immeasurable amount of time in the past 2 years trying to stop the cross bow from coming to NC. We, the NCBA, were able to get a bill into our legislature to stop it. But the bill is languishing in committee. Likely never to see the light of day. And where is the outrage from NC bowhunters? It is nearly impossible to get them to send a letter to their legislators. And if they do, they likely support crossbows.

      The world Aldo Leopold and Fred Bear knew and loved is fleeting fast. What will the world of our children be?

      Oh yea, one more observation – some people (not me) think that fiber glass in bow limbs is the culprit of archery demise, not compound bows. Read Comstock’s book for a full discussion of that one.

    • rayborbon
      Post count: 298

      The archery seasons were fought and agitated for by a previous generation’s proponents of archery in order to get longer seasons and to hunt in a more primitive fashion. This concept obviously included the most important aspect of archery hunting… How you went about your hunt. It was not that you had every advantage at your disposal in order to get a kill should you encounter an animal. It was all about the experience. Success for many who like to archery hunt is a proving grounds and a way to test or measure their skills all the way around. Not just flinging bullets or crossbow bolts from 100,200,500 yards. It was getting in close with the game animals and learning enough about them to get in close regularly and make a harvest.

      Nowadays we have permitted the advancement of technology into the sport with compounds. Then people want to eschew primitive seasons because we already have these compounds which are more complex to design than many rifles. The argument is very simple but effective. A crossbow is a primitive weapon. Well that’s right it is. The crossbow does not possess any connection with the original spirit of the primitive seasons and those who seek to enjoy their archery hunt the old fashioned way… Getting satisfaction from hunting in the outdoors by way of a raw experience with simple yet effective tools.

    • Jimmymac
      Post count: 4

      Sadly, in the past few weeks NY State has passed legislation that now allows a “crossgun” during the regular firearms and muzzleloading seasons beginning in 2011. The group New York Bowhunters fought this legislation strongly (without much support from bowhunters statewide) but in the end, the money machine won. For those who say “I don’t care if they allow them during the firearms or muzzleloader seasons”, you must realize that having the crossbow allowed during those seasons is not a victory for the crossbow manufacturers. People are not going to lay down their 12 gauge slug guns or their rifles and take a crossbow into the woods. This is about money, about selling crossbows, supporting campaigns, growing a taxbase, selling more hunting licenses at the expense of our primitive seasons and also the wildlfe we covet. Yes, we allowed compounds to evolve like they have – blindsighted, but that doesn’t mean we now roll over; instead it means we stand and say enough is enough.

      In NY we know they won’t settle for the seasons as currently allowed, they won’t give up until they give every bubba a reason to go out and buy a new toy. I have to say that I am afraid of the type of person this will draw to the primitive seasons should they be allowed, the compound has done that in spades. Shooters, not hunters. People without the skills of woodsmanship or the love and respect of the quarry. People who want nothing more than the chance to spew bravado over their great hunting trophys. People without ethics.

    • SteveMcD
      Member
      Post count: 870

      I think allowing the crossbow is about recruitment and retention in the hunting fraternity – and we NEED BOTH.

      NYB has done some good things. But I am not a member any longer……..

      It is the constant alienation of other sportsman that bothers me the most with NYB.

      As Secretary to one of the County Federations in New York State – I can say that with out any doubt, the majority of sportsman in New York State WANT the Crossbow.

      IMO – the Archery Season changed forever when the Hollis Allen Compound designed for “Disabled” archers was allowed in the archery season. And the reality is.. the crossbow has no advantage over today’s compounds.

      What goes around comes around, the gun hunters in the 40’s and 50’s, which still had strong sentiments in the 60’s when I was starting out, used the same arguments against Archery Seasons, that certain “Bowhunters” today are using against the crossbow.

      Become a “Two Season Hunter” now with your Holllis Allen Designed Cable & Wheel bow with 65-75% let off, sights, doinkers, stabilizers and mechanical release, there is no need to practice or worry, and you don’t have to wait for gun season to hunt deer. Oh yeah.. it all comes around.

      I don’t care what a hunter carries in his hand, I do care about his actions, image and values that he brings along with him or her. Hunters should hunt with what they believe upon their skills is the most ethical. And not what some minority group wants to dictate and force down everyone else throats. This is still America.. there should be at least the freedom to choose.

    • Jimmymac
      Post count: 4

      I agree Steve, that most sportsman in the state want the crossbow. But if you asked these same sportsman; “do you want guns allowed during the archery season?”, they would also widely support that as well – its the majority, the gun hunters, who support the crossbow in the state. They just want more opportunity to take a deer, or they want the same chance at an early season deer that archers have.

      Do you really think the crossbow will retain people in the hunting ranks? It’s taking kids and the older generation afield, mentoring, and above all retaining and providing land where hunters can access the animals. It’s not a new toy or hunting implement that will grow the hunting population, it’s lack of public hunting lands here in NY that has shrunk the ranks. People don’t want to pay the high cost for a license and not have a place to go.

      As for NYB, any group that takes a stand for a belief is going to alienate people. I give them credit for doing this and not caving in the interest of adding new members and therefore operating on a tight budget. They have shown they can take the criticism while fighting to preserve a “heritage”. They just did win the NYSCC “Conservation club of the year” award (to the great surprise of the alienated ones) for their work with youth archery programs, and for their work in assisting handicapped hunters by sponsoring hunts and then taking these folks afield and helping them overcome these handicaps and using a bow, proving over and over that a crossbow is not needed.

      They haven’t dictated anything Steve, they are merely working in preserving the heritage that the archery seasons in NY represent.

    • 2Feathers
      Post count: 8

      rayborbon wrote: Crossbows have a place. In the modern firearms season.

      I agree 110% with this one!!!!

    • Konrad
      Post count: 62

      Archery has woven its thread throughout my life since I made my first stick bow in the 2nd grade. There have been periods where other things took precedence over archery and the practice was pushed aside (trying to support a family has a way of pushing EVERYTHING aside).

      In these later years, archery has become a “way of life” for me. The old saying is: guys think about sex every 4 seconds, well, in between, I’m thinking about improving my archery skills. I realize not every hunter has the dedication to diligently practice throughout the year come rain, sleet, snow, 95 degrees and 8 degrees; however, I can say there was a time I couldn’t devote that focus on the World’s Oldest Sport. I would hate to have had someone dictate to me because I was not performing at my optimum accuracy; that I couldn’t buy an archery tag and go to the woods with my bow.

      There will always be some folks who will shoot beyond their capacity be it with long bow, compound, muzzle loader (I have to laugh about that term. Has anyone seen what passes for a “muzzle loader” these days?) or modern, center fire rifle. I continue to believe that most hunters have a sense of right and wrong and abide by a code of behavior.

      Since I stumbled on to the muzzle loader topic, I find the parallels between primitive archery hunters complaining about compound bows to be in the same vein with “traditional” muzzle loaders objecting to the use of modern muzzle loaders. The difference for me is a modern muzzle loader requires no more skill to use than a modern rifle whereas consummate skill with the compound requires continual time at the butts.

      Contrary to many opinions, the compound bow does require practice. Most of the “bowhunting” magazines suggest at least 4 months of preparation before heading a field. This is a completely different requirement than Billy Bob taking his scoped ’06 or modern muzzle loader or crossbow off the rack, picking up the same box of 20 rounds he has had for three years, and heading to the range to “sight in” with two of those rounds.

      I find it easy to judge Billy Bob harshly.
      I have to place the compound archer (and traditional muzzle loader) in a different category.

      Things in life change. The best we can do is pass on our standards of behavior to the next generations and make them understand the reasons for those standards. No one is forcing Billy Bob into buying that cross bow or scoped “muzzle loader”. It is all about peer pressure and advertising.

      And that brings me back to: Who taught he and his peers their code?
      It was most likely parents and grandparents.

    • SteveMcD
      Member
      Post count: 870

      I understand. I really don’t want to debate. I have to agree with others. We burned this bridge long ago when the Compound was allowed in the Archery Season.

      Truthfully, the Compound is no more a Bow than a crossbow is. A mechanical machine that launches an arrow.

      “They (gun hunters) just want more opportunity to take a deer, or they want the same chance at an early season deer that archers have.” – On this point, I rest my case, this is EXACTLY what Fred Bear was marketing in the early 70’s. With the Compound and the “Become a Two Season Hunter” marketing campaign.

    • Alexandre Bugnon
      Member
      Post count: 681

      SteveMcD wrote: I have to agree with Chris. If it were just those that were physically challenged using the crossbow in the archery season, I would say fine. The problem is.. the majority of potential crossbow hunters are just gun hunters looking for an “easy in” into the Archery season. 👿 Heck most Compounders don’t even start practicing until a couple of weeks before the season begins. 🙄

      If I am an Elitist. Ok – I can live with that. 8):D

      I second that!

    • Stephen Graf
      Moderator
      Post count: 2371

      SteveMcD wrote: Truthfully, the Compound is no more a Bow than a crossbow is. A mechanical machine that launches an arrow.

      It’s about function. The most basic definition of a bow used to hunt states that “a bow must be drawn and held by the hunter in the presence of game” By this definition of function, a crossbow is not a bow. But a compound is a bow.

      Whether we like to admit it or not, a compound bow functions exactly like a traditional bow. The only real difference is that the draw curve looks different.

      Speaking as a person who spent the last year working very hard to keep crossbows out of North Carolina and failing, I can tell you the writing is on the wall. I doubt very much there will be a primitive season at all in the next 10 years anywhere in the south.

      It’s the same old story. When a country goes into decline, it looses respect for its resources. Deer are now seen as a pest with benefits. The state can earn income by selling licenses to decimate the pest population. You can always tell when the state falls on hard times here. People start to clear cuts their land to earn a few extra bucks so they can pay their property taxes.

      Economic trouble aside, I don’t see a way to keep crossbows out of the archery season. And I don’t see a way of preserving the archery season in the future.

      Archery is being marginalized in North Carolina. Maybe the benefit is that when there is no archery season, only the truly devoted will continue to hunt this way. We will return to the days dressing in green, smiling, and having fun.

      After all it has been sung: “Freedom’s just another word for nothing left to loose!”

      Enjoy your freedom boys!

    • SteveMcD
      Member
      Post count: 870

      Steve Graf wrote:
      Whether we like to admit it or not, a compound bow functions exactly like a traditional bow. The only real difference is that the draw curve looks different.

      I completely disagree with you on this one, and many others would too. The Limbs on a Compound if you could call them that, provide no power or energy to the arrow, they are simply extensions to all allow clearance for the Pulley Wheels and Cables. The Compound limbs serve no other function.

      Secondly, you could hold a compound for several minutes before an approaching animal, you cannot do that with traditional gear.

    • Greg Ragan
      Member
      Post count: 201

      I will also let you all know how it goes this year.

      Maryland just passed the xbow in archery season as well.

      Sigh……..:?

    • William Warren
      Member
      Post count: 1384

      [quote=”Steve Graf
      Speaking as a person who spent the last year working very hard to keep crossbows out of North Carolina and failing, I can tell you the writing is on the wall. I doubt very much there will be a primitive season at all in the next 10 years anywhere in the south.

      It’s the same old story. When a country goes into decline, it looses respect for its resources. Deer are now seen as a pest with benefits. The state can earn income by selling licenses to decimate the pest population. You can always tell when the state falls on hard times here. People start to clear cuts their land to earn a few extra bucks so they can pay their property taxes.

      Economic trouble aside, I don’t see a way to keep crossbows out of the archery season. And I don’t see a way of preserving the archery season in the future.

      Archery is being marginalized in North Carolina. Maybe the benefit is that when there is no archery season, only the truly devoted will continue to hunt this way. We will return to the days dressing in green, smiling, and having fun.

      After all it has been sung: Freedom’s just another word for nothing left to loose!

      Enjoy your freedom boys!

      Steve,
      Thanks for all your effort and the effort of those within NCBA. I know people called their Reps but to read the news articles the General Assembly session closed on the bill almost uncontested. “Big Sporting Goods” and NC both gained more revenue from the deal.
      And yes, hard times always mean clear cuts in rural NC and clear cuts equal more deer. The perfect storm for those who stand to gain from all of this.

      PS – in case anyone was wondering where I’ve been I’ve been hanging out on the fishing forums, but I’ve been keeping an eye on the Trad Bow site. 😀

      Duncan

    • Stephen Graf
      Moderator
      Post count: 2371

      SteveMcD wrote: I completely disagree with you on this one, and many others would too. The Limbs on a Compound if you could call them that, provide no power or energy to the arrow, they are simply extensions to all allow clearance for the Pulley Wheels and Cables. The Compound limbs serve no other function.

      The limbs of a traditional bow and compound bow function in the same way: as springs to store energy. Without these springs, the cables and pulleys of a compound bow would serve no purpose.

      Peace!!! we need not argue the merits of the compound bow. For we both agree they are not for us.

    • 1/2traditional
      Post count: 13

      wow quite the discussion and a of good points but i think the days of the government being ”for the people by the people” is over.

    • William Warren
      Member
      Post count: 1384

      1/2traditional wrote: wow quite the discussion and a of good points but i think the days of the government being ”for the people by the people” is over.

      Still is for some people……

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