Home Forums Friends of FOC Ashby forum reborn — please read!

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    • David Petersen
      Member
      Post count: 2749

      Welcome to Tradbow.com’s redesigned forum, FRIENDS OF FOC: A forum for conversation among fans of the Ashby Arrow Lethality Study. This forum comprises four working parts:

      1) Ashby Research Library: Containing the complete and unabridged archives of Dr. Ashby’s research reports and updates through 2007, the most recent. As future reports and updates become available, they will be added. This resource is for serious students of arrow lethality who don’t flinch at complex math and engineering concepts and terms, charts, graphs and more.

      2) Traditional Bowhunter Magazine Arrow Lethality Archives: Containing all Ashby-influenced arrow lethalityarticles ever to appear in the magazine, written by Dr. Ashby and others. These articles generally examine one Ashby arrow lethality concept at a time — say,

      overall arrow system weight, or the Tanto tip — providing hands-on useful detail without mind-twisting technical jargon.

      3) Easy FOC Calculator: Ed designed this helpful tool as a fast and easy way to accurately calculate FOC for any arrow length/weight combination, any shaft material, in just seconds, no math necessary!

      4) Arrow lethality discussion forum: Many of us here have been frustrated by the closed-minded resistance encountered on other websites to an open discussion of the clear and undeniable progress in arrow lethality knowledge resulting from Dr. Ed Ashby’s long-term field studies. That will not be the case here. THIS FORUM IS FOR SPECIFICALLY AND ONLY FOR THOSE WHO EMBRACE THE ASHBY STUDY AND WISH TO EXCHANGE INFORMATION AND EXPERIENCES WITH FELLOW FANS OF FOC IN A POSITIVE ENVIRONMENT FREE OF HECKLING FROM THE PEANUT GALLERY. IF YOU WISH TO CRITICIZE THE TENETS OF THE ASHBY ARROW LETHALITY STUDY, OR TO SAY “THE OLD WAYS WORK FINE AND THIS ROCKET SCIENCE ISN’T NECESSARY” … THERE ARE PLENTY OF PLACES FOR THAT. THIS IS NOT THAT PLACE. THIS FORUM IS FOR FRIENDS OF THE STUDY, NOT CRITICS OR DOUBTERS, AND POSTS THAT IGNORE THAT RULE WILL BE PROMPTLY DELETED. AS WE GO ALONG WE WILL GRADUALLY RESTORE MOST POSTS IN THE ORIGINAL ASHBY FORUM. SORRY FOR ANY CONFUSION BUT THE SPECIFIC GOALS AND RESTRICTIONS OF THIS SITE JUST DIDN’T WORK OUT WHEN BLENDED WITH MORE GENERAL TOPICS. THANKS FOR YOUR PATIENCE! — Your friendly moderator, 😈 Dave Petersen

    • Clay Hayes
      Member
      Post count: 418

      Until recently, I never payed much attention to Dr. Ashby’s research, but then again, I never hunted anything bigger than whitetails.

      Lately, I’ve really started to delve in and am now facing the EFOC woodie road. I’ve been experementing, but have a long way to go in finding my own “perfect” arrow. I’m sure this new forum will be a help, and I’m glad to see it.

      thanks,

      ch

    • Steve Sr.
      Post count: 344

      I just wrote about 8 paragraphs on my excitement this thread and this season is bringing for me…….and I got signed out before posting. ARGGGGGGGGGG!

      anyway……….. IM IN!

      Look for a few “single bevel” twists within my posts!! Literally and figuratively! 😀

      God bless!!!
      Steve

    • IronCreekArcher
      Post count: 79

      FINALLY!! I am very excited this thread has come to fruition. I am one of the many who has been treated less than respectfully on “other” sites when talking about this very topic. It is wonderful to have such a place of refuge and healthy discussion. My gratitude and many thanks go out to all those who worked so hard at making this a reality.

      Best,
      Dan

    • Littlefeather
      Post count: 3

      That is a well written post Dave! I’ve tried many times to tell folks that Doc isn’t pushing “absolutes” in anything archery. He’s simply sharing scientific data collected through thousands upon thousands of shots on real flesh of real game. Funny thing about all the nay-sayers is that I’ve seen none of them step forward with evidence that I could compare or relate to what Doc has showed me.

      Secondly, the thing I hear the most about the studies is that they were all engineered for BIG BONED African game and the same arrow lethiality criteria just isn’t needed for hunting North American whitetail. BUT, isn’t it?????

      I can honestly say that I don’t always use all the data Doc and I have talked about but there have been several opportunities on “whitetail” that I wish I had. We all make a bad shot occasionally. The difference in the arrow, head, and the tuning can make all the difference in the world even when it comes to recovering that one whitetail that got hit bad.

      Thanks to you and the magazine Dave for providing a place to share Doc’s data. I hope to see and hear much more data gathered from those beside Doc as well. Thanks, CK

    • Daniel
      Post count: 247

      Hi David, this is a picture my wife took of the hole a single bevel Ashby broadhead did going through a block of 3/4″ Kempas wood, it blew right through rotating in a left manner ( left helical ) cutting a big hole perpendicular to the wood grain. And like I mentioned before, i took that same broadhead and shaved the hair on my arm, it blew me away.

    • IronCreekArcher
      Post count: 79

      To use an old cliche…”A picture is worth a thousand words.” Lets see a good quality multi-bladed head do that. Have you tried it with a multi-bladed head?

    • Mark Turton
      Post count: 759

      Ok Gentlemen

      I’m well enough convinced to try single bevel on pigs without any reservations (pigs are the toughest thing I have the opportunity to hunt) but I have two questions.

      1. Single bevel obviously generates the rotational effect seen in penetration have you any experience of a single convex grind if so is the rotation effected in any way.
      2. If you have a left hand rotation is there a danger of the thread being loosened and the penetration reduced, should a left hand thread be used.

      Look forward to your comments, Mark.

    • Littlefeather
      Post count: 3

      I couldn’t comment on the single convex grind. Don’t know..

      I’ve asked Doc the same question about the threads releasing upon impact. He says he’s using lock-tite on the threads. Most of the arrows I’ve seen of Doc’s are his older arrows used in some of the early testing. They’re all wood.

      Doc is still experimenting with carbons and other composites right now. Doc and OL Adcock are doing some awesome stuff with arrow testing. He has a real knack at keeping data of everything. He’ll show up here sometime soon, I’m sure. Hopefully he’ll have something new to share. CK

    • Steve Sr.
      Post count: 344

      2. If you have a left hand rotation is there a danger of the thread being loosened and the penetration reduced, should a left hand thread be used.

      Pothunter,

      I’ll give that a run in an attempt to give more info. Neat ID name, BTW.

      Shooting left wing FEATHERS also turns in the opposite direction of the threads so that is also food for thought. IMO.

      I’m not even sure if a head DID loosen that the magnitude of it doing so would effect penetration but more here will comment with more information, I’m sure. In order for a head to unscrew one would have to assume that the shaft would have to be held rigid enough before the head COULD rotate loose from it.

      Keeping in mind that the arrow shaft still has retaining forward motion against the head, and the head is meeting resisting forces during penetration, that Id think was greater than shaft drag, are not the two being forcefully pushed together?

      Upon entering the body, BOTH the arrow shaft and the head were rotating counter clockwise (with left wing helical). The left bevel of the head will CONTINUE to turn in that same direction. Something would have to grip the shaft hard to break loose the two……..I’d think. Just surmising.

      Back to basics though on screw in heads. While there is an option to screw them into shafts much tougher than woodies these days, those I tried and BROKE, broke the same place as woodies……..Right behind the head, at least FOR ME.

      I cured that by realizing I was using glue on heads anyway and epoxied the dang screw in broadhead adapter into the shaft AND treading.

      Just my 2 cents about my own experiences. Others may differ.

      God Bless
      Steve

    • IronCreekArcher
      Post count: 79

      I have also heard that using the blue loc-tite will settle any nagging doubts about the head coming loose. I also know that a single bevel head rotates at a faster rate on impact than an arrow spinning towards the target. This could be a problem upon impact as far as the head becoming loose. I only have a vague idea of what convex sharpening is so I will say this…if the convex method takes a bunch of metal off the cutting edge thus making it thinner I would stay away from that method because it could ruin the structural integrity of the cutting edge in a heavy bone impact situation thus negating any gains achieved by an Ashby maximized set-up. Just my .02 cents…

    • Mark Turton
      Post count: 759

      Hi IronCreekArcher

      Just failed completely to describe a convex grind so stole this of another site:
      Convex ground—Rather than tapering with straight lines to the edge, the taper is curved, though in the opposite manner to a hollow grind. Such a shape keeps a lot of metal behind the edge making for a stronger edge while still allowing a good degree of sharpness.
      I was introduced to convex ground blades about 4 years ago and no longer posses a knife with any other blade profile, personal choice of course but recommend you try it some time.

      Steve, Thanks for your input, I’ve probably answered my own question on this matter but my concern is that on impact the energy may be converted into a rotational force something like that found in an old style impact wrench.
      And I agree Locktight every time.

      Best regards, Mark.

    • J-dog
      Post count: 47

      Hi David, Great to run across this forum, will be the first to admit I have not killed anything bigger than a rabbit with a single bevel but have been bowhunting over 20 years using many different style heads, so no expert with any “one” style! HAH Mainly hogs and WT deer with a trip to Africa squeezed in.
      Just starting to incorporate some of Asby’s research work into my arrows. Cannot see disregarding such good solid work to make a better killing/lethal arrow. Look foward to reading through some of the posts, try and learn some more from you crew here.

      Thanks

      Jason

    • Ed Ashby
      Member
      Post count: 816

      Just back from several days away, getting more medical test, and have to get some x-rays taken tomorrow, but will try to check back tomorrow evening or Friday; to look over the forum. Only around till Monday, then I have to go back for more med test.

      If it’s on schedule, the first of a 2 part article on the bows and arrows of Papau New Guinea should be in the upcoming issue of Primitive Archer. Last year, I had a first-hand chance to examine both the bows/arrows used prior to WWll and those in contemporary use by the same PNG tribe; the natives of the Bula Planes region. The first article deals with the bows from each era, but what will be of interest to those following this forum will be in the second article – the arrows used pre-WWll and those in use today. Clearly, even Ultra Extreme FOC arrows have a very long “tradition” in archery! All you ‘woody shooters’ will get a chance to see some photos on not just EFOC wood-shafted arrows, but ones with over 40% FOC!

      After they are ‘in print’ in Primitive Archer, I’ll send a consolodate (into a single article) copy to be posted on this forum. It certainly adds some historical context to heavy weight, EFOC arrows!

      Okay, too beat to try to read over all the postings tonight, but glad to see everyone who’s here.

      Ed

    • IronCreekArcher
      Post count: 79

      It’s great to have you back Dr. Ashby! Spending time amongst friends will surely take your mind off of “things” and make the summer fly by…I wish you well with the continuing battery of tests…I was there once in my life as well and I hope it is a trip I will not have to take again. I will be looking for the upcoming issue of the Primitive Archer…it sounds like a very interesting article.

      Best,
      Dan

    • PagosaBow
      Post count: 61

      All I can say is GOODNESS GRACIOUS! I have alot to learn. I dont event know where to begin. I have just begun to experiment with arrows and arrow weight. Wow soo much information is gonna make my head explode!

    • IronCreekArcher
      Post count: 79

      We are here for you. There is a lot of experience floating around here. Its a wonderful resource! Welcome aboard!

      Best,
      Dan

    • PagosaBow
      Post count: 61

      Thanks so much. I really am loving all this information. You guys on here are great!

    • IronCreekArcher
      Post count: 79

      Dr. Ashby is also on here very frequently but not as of late. Mr. Petersen said he is in the middle of moving back to the States and dealing with some major back surgeries and recovery. We all wish him well and a speedy recovery. He is a wealth of information and has posted some pics and info on the “Stories, Experiences and your Ashby Set-up” thread; give it a read.

    • Patrick
      Member
      Post count: 1148

      Steve Sr. wrote: I just wrote about 8 paragraphs on my excitement this thread and this season is bringing for me…….and I got signed out before posting. ARGGGGGGGGGG

      Oh, how I can relate! Lol!

      I’ve been scouring through Dr Ashby’s material, and this section of the forum. Simply amazing resource!

    • Treetopflier
      Post count: 146

      Hey Patrick — Love your Jefferson quote!!! Snuffy

    • ReadyHawk
      Post count: 62

      I’m with ya there Ronnie. Lot to learn.

    • marinenelson
      Post count: 20

      IronCreekArcher wrote: I have also heard that using the blue loc-tite will settle any nagging doubts about the head coming loose. I also know that a single bevel head rotates at a faster rate on impact than an arrow spinning towards the target. This could be a problem upon impact as far as the head becoming loose. I only have a vague idea of what convex sharpening is so I will say this…if the convex method takes a bunch of metal off the cutting edge thus making it thinner I would stay away from that method because it could ruin the structural integrity of the cutting edge in a heavy bone impact situation thus negating any gains achieved by an Ashby maximized set-up. Just my .02 cents…

      A convex grind actually leaves more material than a flat grind. It is often used for combat knives and heavy swords. A concave, or hollow grind, would remove more material, it is typically used for more precision cutting instruments.

    • David Coulter
      Member
      Post count: 2271

      A note on the convex grind. I was having some difficulty getting an edge on my new Grizzly heads. I was also having a hard time putting a new edge on a knife made by my friend Bud Nealy. He’s become a very well known knife maker over the past few decades and makes some very beautiful as well as functional pieces. http://www.budnealyknifemaker.com
      Bud told me to bring in the broadheads and his knife and he would put an edge on them for me. He does all his sharpening on belt grinders with a variety of grits, down to leather. He described the cutting edge for knives and thought it should apply to broadheads, although he doesn’t have much direct expeience with them. He was very interested in reading Dr. Ashby’s reports when I told him about them.
      He said that an efficient cutting edge on a knife, from swords to scalples is a sort of convex pineapple shape. That as the blade cuts and the blade gets thicker, it spreads the wound to help the edge do more cutting.
      Now, remember, this is me trying to tell you what he told me. I hope that the whisper down the lane effect is not too great.
      I’m going to settin up a belt grinder for my sharpening. I looked into some inexpensive grinders and they all run in the 3500 rpm range, which is too fast for blades. You run the risk of losing the temper if the blade heats up too much. Bud recommended about 1700 rpms for blade grinding.

    • jfelkins
      Post count: 41

      I’m starting to dig into this awesome collection of knowledge. Thanks Dr. Ashby For your work and Dave for this post. I’d love to read through the articles when I’m not online. Does any of the library exist as .pdf’s or a similar format? Thanks!

      John

    • Robin Conrads
      Admin
      Post count: 916

      jfelkins wrote: I’m starting to dig into this awesome collection of knowledge. Thanks Dr. Ashby For your work and Dave for this post. I’d love to read through the articles when I’m not online. Does any of the library exist as .pdf’s or a similar format? Thanks!

      John

      Hi John,

      Great to see you are enjoying this information. It is a lot to absorb. Dr. Ed has allowed us to post this on our web site, but we don’t have permission to send it out in any other format. You might try a PM to him with your email address and see if he can give it to you. He’s great to work with. Start a PM to anyone and change the name to Dr. Ed Ashby or find a thread he posted in and click the PM link. Here is a random post I found. Ashby Post. The system is weird and I’m not able to find him using a search. I think that’s because he has a period in the name. 🙄

      Take care,

    • Squirrel Master
      Post count: 21
    • sapcut
      Post count: 159

      SM, I have used the TuffHead 225 and 300. It is the badest piece of steel on an arrow I have ever seen. The slick profile and smooth shaving sharp edge is the perfect recipe for a nonclottable plasma production.

      There is a video on the TuffHead website of a blood trail I got using the TuffHead.

    • sapcut
      Post count: 159

      To add…..the 300 grains has also allowed me to juice up my FOC from 32.4% to 33.7%…while keeping the same total arrow weight of 810 grains shot with 71#s.

    • Squirrel Master
      Post count: 21

      Well, I went ahead and ordered the 200grn adapter/insert, 300grn field tips, and a glue stick. Im running 3555 Gold Tips out of a 50# Fred Bear Kodiak Magnum right at 28″ draw. Im guessing my spine is going to be a bit weak but I have yet to cut any length off my shafts, SO, hopefully Ill be able to stiffen up my squirrel sticks to match the weight. Ill keep ya’ll updated.

    • Ed Ashby
      Member
      Post count: 816

      The new format should make finding information much easier. Can’t speak for others but having the information scattered out among all the other post, on both forums, certainly made it more difficult for me to find item to refer folks over to.

      Hope everyone enjoys!

      Ed

    • Bruce Smithhammer
      Post count: 2514

      I think this is a great idea.

    • sagebrush
      Post count: 52

      All right!!! Great idea Dave. I’ve always shot woods but I am very intrigued by efoc. I have shot elk with single bevel heads and they work great. Gary

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