A&A Fletching

[Stephen Graf]

#7004

I tried a half hearted search on this forum for my answer, but it wasn’t forthcoming… so please:

For those of you who have used the A&A fletching profile, what dimensions did you use? And how did you settle on those dimensions?

I’ve tried 4 inch fletching and still find 5 inch fletching more reliable. But I would like to get more fletch out of my feather if possible… So I thought I would try to wedge my mind open just a crack and try an A&A fletched arrow…

[David Coulter]

#57143

Hi Steve,

I’ve been following the threads on fletching and trying it myself, a little at a time. I’m going slow, instead of gong from short/failure to long/success. Last season I cut my 5″ shields down to about 4″ A&A and the broadheads flew fine. I’m now shooting 3″ A&A with field points and judos and have been playing with tuning a little more. I trimmed my shafts just a 1/6th again and with three fletch 3″ A&A they fly like darts. It seems I have gotten rid of the tail wag that I wrote about in another thread. I will be trying them with broadheads this week and expect them to be fine. I’m using Grizzlies, by the way, with 50 grain inserts, and a total of 230 grain head on Beman ICS Bowhunter 400s. 46# Stewart Slammer longbow.

Have fun, dwc

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#57160

DWC – are you using 3 feathers, or 4, with your 3″ fletch?

[Ed Ashby]

#57170

I though it worthwhile to copy this post by Kingwouldbe over from another thread. It’s a very important factor to realize before you start trying the A&A fletchings.

Kingwouldbe wrote: After several PM’s I think I need to share or clarify a few things.

You can not just take your regular arrow and cut the feathers down, You must have EFOC to get the results we are talking about.

A EFOC arrow is stable by design, therefor needs or requires less fletching to do the same work 5″ feathers do, so that you under stand a little better, it’s like putting flu-flu feathers on your hunting arrow 😯 why in the world would you do that, it makes your arrow LOUD and SLOWS it down, down range, yet, you can pluck the arrow all you want, it will fly straight, even if it’s not tuned to the bow, it will fly straight, as the HUGE feathers masques or covers up any errors in the tune.

No one would hunt deer with a flu-flu arrow with a broadhead, will it straiten your arrow up with a bad release, it sure will, but at a cost.

If you tune your regular hunting arrow, you do not need flu-flu feathers to stabilize it, it’s the same with a EFOC arrow, you just need less feathers to do the same work of 5″ feathers of a regular hunting arrow.

I have heard a few people say, they want more feathers for hunting to stabilize there arrow for hunting conditions, and I do agree, for REGULAR arrows, however with the EFOC hunting arrow, it is not needed.

We are NOT taking a regular arrow and cutting the feathers down, we are building a whole new arrow, from the ground up.

Hope this helps

The only set features of the A&A pattern are: (1) The fletching has a straight, vertical cut at the rear, with a 1/2″ height; (2) it has a straight taper from the rear to the front; (3) it is applied as a straight fletch, with no helical and no offset; (4) it incorporates the turbulator placed 1/4″ forward of the fletchings leading edge and; (5) it is individually tuned to the particular EFOC or UEFOC arrow you are building up – that determines the length of the fletching you can use.

Ed

[David Coulter]

#57230

I’m using three fletch with an FOC of about 25%. In reading the last post by Ed and King, I’m not sure I have a true A&A, as I’m cutting down a 4″ parabolic to 3″ with a vertical back. The taper is pretty straight, but I’d have to look at it closer to see if it is truly straight. The back end is straight down vertical.

Thanks, dwc

ps. I just did the calculation on the Alaska Bowhunting site, thank you very much for providing that, and found my FOC to be just over 26%. Thanks, d

[Raymond Coffman]

#57383

DWC —

FYI

Foc chart is the first heading under the Ashby Library here at the Tradbow site, for easy reference in the future.

also on Page two of – bows and trad equipment -[ under campfire forums] in Steve Sr thread “a long look at fletching and efoc -is a description and pix of A&A fletching by the Doc

Scout

[David Coulter]

#57719

Scout,

Thanks very much. I took the easy route and used the calculator on Alaska’s site, although it really isn’t hard to do the math as described in the Ashby link.

Thanks for your help. Best, dwc

[Stephen Graf]

#57763

Dr. Ed Ashby wrote:

The only set features of the A&A pattern are: (1) The fletching has a straight, vertical cut at the rear, with a 1/2″ height; (2) it has a straight taper from the rear to the front; (3) it is applied as a straight fletch, with no helical and no offset; (4) it incorporates the turbulator placed 1/4″ forward of the fletchings leading edge and; (5) it is individually tuned to the particular EFOC or UEFOC arrow you are building up – that determines the length of the fletching you can use.

Ed

Thanks. That’s what I needed.

But item 3 is a little worrying. No helical and no offset means no spin. That’s how we used to shoot musket balls back in the good old days…

I guess if you shoot arrows with no offset and no helical, you can mix up left and right hand feathers and you can shoot single bevel broadheads of either wing too…?

Why get rid of the helical and offset? Is there some other affect adding to the stability of the arrow that compensates for taking away the inertial stability of rotation?

[David Coulter]

#57780

Another advantage to EFOC is how they float… I had a judo deflect off a branch and land in the creek. I was able to walk out on a downed tree and catch the nock end with my bow as the head bounced along the bottom. Nice, unforeseen advantage… dwc

[kingwouldbe]

#57998

Steve

But item 3 is a little worrying. No helical and no offset means no spin. That’s how we used to shoot musket balls back in the good old days… KWB: This is a incorrect understanding, the arrow does spin and is vary stable, the single bevel imparts some spin as it cuts through the air, also, a right wing feather will also impart right spin as that is it’s natural design

I guess if you shoot arrows with no offset and no helical, you can mix up left and right hand feathers and you can shoot single bevel broadheads of either wing too…? KWB: This also would be wrong thinking, you would be making an extremely unstable arrow, mixing right wing with left wing feathers

Why get rid of the helical and offset? Is there some other affect adding to the stability of the arrow that compensates for taking away the inertial stability of rotation?

KWB: The efoc, single bevel arrow is stable by design, requiring less steering as a regular arrow requires to have the same stability

[stalkin4elk]

#58296

If I recall the straight fletch had more to do with a reduction of noise than the speed of rotation of the same design installed in a helical pattern?? They both should be stable if properly tuned.

[Ed Ashby]

#58317

Steve, King has it spot on. The natural curve of the feather imparts all the arrow rotation required. The purpose of applying it as a straigh fletch is simply because the additional fletching pressure (read that as ‘drag’ on the arrow in flight) is not needed with the EFOC arrows.

Ed

[Ed Ashby]

#58326

I’ve posted this on other threads but it is worth re-posting here too. The concept of using the minimum fletching ‘drag’ required to stabalize the arrow’s flight is nothing new.

“The arrow has been likened to a ship; the feathers corresponding to the rudder with which the ship is steered. If the rudder is too heavy, it slows the ship down and may even cause it to sink; if it is too light, the ship will roll and pitch and be out of control.” – From translation of the 500 year old text on Arabic Archery

Ergo; if the fletching is of a greater amount than the minimum required to stabilize the arrow’s flight all it does is slow the arrow down and ‘cause it to sink’.

Ed

[Stephen Graf]

#60087

OK, so I know I will get hammered for this, but here goes:

I’ve got about 28% foc on my arrow (I gained about 1% by using the short AA fletching). I also had to balance my jo-jan fletcher feather clamps while making the arrow as they were unbalanced with the short fletch and the back end wanted to lift off… No big deal, just unexpected…

I shot the arrow at my usual practice distance of about 19 yds and everything looked good. It was sort of disconcerting because I could not follow the arrow as well as with my normal length fletching.

Then I moved to my deer target. I have a spot where I can shoot through some small juniper branches that are 6 ft or so in front of the target. When I did this, the arrow ended up stuck in the nose of the target. I repeated several more times, but it only happened once. It has never happened with my regular arrows. My normal experience is that high foc arrows pile drive through thin brush without deviation.

Then I took the arrow on my archery night out at the local shop. I shot the arrow for about 3 hours, along with my other arrows which are the same except for the fletching length. I found that if I had a crappy release (I am very familiar with crappy releases :oops:) that should have had my arrow a couple inches off the mark, it ended up being 6 or 7 inches off the mark.

The arrows bare shaft tune like darts. What am I doing wrong? Is 28% not enough?

[David Petersen]

#60230

Steve — Nobody “gets hammered” here except sideline critics with a compulsion to needle us, like broken records, for furthering the Ashby revolution, without having tried it themselves. I’ll bet someone will have some good leads on what’s happening with your arrow flight. Could be you are under-fletched for your FOC, as you suggest, but I’m not the one to know.

On a related point, I have some test arrows from Fletcher, Sitka spruce with 4×2″ fletching, not A&A, with a 300 grain head up front. They fly beautifully and the only difference I can see from my standard 3×5 setup is increased quietness. If I can figure how to re-adjust my fletching jig for 4-fletch I think I’ll switch. If nothing else the smaller feathers are less visible to game.

I’m curious to hear what the guys have to say about your problem.

[Ed Ashby]

#60250

Steve, it sounds like you need to increase the size of your fletching slightly. Go slow, increasing just 1/4″ at a time until you have total flight stability under all shooting conditions.

Here’s a cut-and-past from a previous post on the step by step tuning I do for the A&A fletching. It sounds like you are at step 5, which I’ve marked in ‘bold’.

I tune the fletching to give the smallest fletching that will stabilize the broadhead under all shooting conditions. I prefer the A&A fletching pattern, which utilizes a turbulator forward of the fletching. Here’s the process I use to tune the A&A fletching, but the same process works for determining the minimum size for any fletching pattern. Just as when bare shaft tuning, finding the minimum amount fletching is a step by step process.

1. Once you feel that you have the bare shaft tuned correctly, mount a matched-weight broadhead on one of the shafts. First use what you are absolutely certain is ample fletching to stabilize the broadhead and VERIFY that the fletched-shaft/broadhead has identical impact to the field-point tipped bare shaft. You can use any fletching pattern you like for this step.

2. Once your shaft tuning is verified you can begin tuning the fletching. Switch to the A&A fletching pattern on the broadhead tipped shaft, starting at about 5” length if you are using 3-fletch, or 4” if using 4-fletch. DO NOT add the turbulator yet. Shoot the arrow several times and check the flight stability.

3. If all is well, begin to gradually decrease the length of the A&A fletchings until the point where you FIRST see a slight instability in the arrow’s flight. Be sure to shoot several shots before making a decision on the flight stability, and it helps if you can have another person also watching for flight instability too.

4. Now add the turbulator and check to be sure the flight is again completely stable. If addition of the turbulator does not completely stabilize the arrow’s flight increase the fletching length by ¼” and check again, with the turbulator in place.

Many factors affect what’s the minimum A&A fletching that will work FOR YOU. A big factor is quality of your release (mine’s poor). Other major factors are the type of broadhead (how much wind shear it generates) and the amount of FOC on the arrow and the shaft’s length. Your draw length and whatever length shaft you are using are also factors. At a given amount of FOC, the longer the shaft the less fletching required; because of the lengthened rear steering arm. Your draw length vs. shaft length affects the point of maximum shaft flex upon release.

5. Once you feel you have the fletching at the minimum size for stability there’s only two tasks remaining; (1) shoot the arrow a lot to verify that there is sufficient fletching to stabilize the arrow even when you get a bad release and (2) check arrow flight on a windy day. When checking for flight in windy conditions you will want to take shots at as many angles to the wind as possible, but at an absolute minimum check the arrow’s flight in a full cross-wind and both quartering with and quartering into the wind. If there is any problem with stability in either of these tests you should increase the length of the fletching gradually, in ¼” increments, until the arrow shows stable flight under all conditions of release and wind direction.

I’ve not found any release or wind direction problems when using the high MA single blade broadheads, because of their very low wind shear factor, but many of the wide-narrow broadheads require an increase in fletching area to achieve flight stability in quartering wind conditions.

This sounds like a lot of work, and it is, but it is a one time job for a given arrow setup. It’s analogous to a working up the very best handload for a rifle; and cheaper and easier to accomplish than finding the best rifle handload too!

I hope the foregoing is coherent enough to be understood. If not lets kick the subject around a bit and see if we can clarify anything that’s in doubt.

Ed

[kingwouldbe]

#60251

Steve, I agree with Dave ” No Hammering here ” but we will tease you….ha ha ha lol just being funny.

First, does the same thing happen to your bare shaft?

I shot a 3D with no fletching, you do not need feathers with a tuned arrow and field points, but any bad form will show up.

You only need feathers to guide broadheads and Troy Breeding, only after 20 yards …..lol (He can shoot a broadhead with no feathers) which is imposable, yet he did it.

My guess is your tune it not there yet, your larger feathers are only masking something else.

Troy is the ” Tune Master ” maybe he will chime in

[Troy Breeding]

#60369

Did I hear someone call my name????

Just read the thread.

Steve,

If you feel your bareshafting is clean then try bareshafting thru paper.

Try it at 5yds to 20yds. This will tell the facts about everything.

Troy

[Stephen Graf]

#61272

Thanks for the tips!

The fletching is 2 1/2″ long now. As suggested I’ll increase 1/4″ and try again…

I can group my bare shafts as well as fletched shafts, as King says. So hopefully just a little more fletching will do.

Do you fiddle with the height of the fletching too? or just keep it at 1/2 inch?

[Troy Breeding]

#61484

Steve,

I’ve played around with the heigth of the feathers a time or two and always seem to return to the max of 1/2″. Seems that anything higher brings back noise.

Troy

[Ed Ashby]

#61486

Steve, I keep mine at the 1/2″ height, just changing the length until I reach the minimum surface area required to stabalize the flight under all shooting conditions.

Ed

[fartski]

#62946

Jumping in late, but what are these A&A feathers? Are they custom cut or something you buy?

[Ed Ashby]

#63007

fartski wrote: Jumping in late, but what are these A&A feathers? Are they custom cut or something you buy?

Here’s the easy way to start. Go over to the EFOC and Fletching thread on the new Friends of EFOC forum. Here’s the link:

https://www.tradbow.com/members/cfmbb/messages.cfm?threadid=C8EA4FBD-1422-1DE9-ED1A1C909376B7B6

Ed

[fartski]

#7792

Dr. Ashby,

Like a good student I read the entire thread twice and come to the conclusion that these A&A fletching are custom cut.

Where did it’s name come from, I’ve been a loyal follower of

EFOC and a practitioner but have been to the site in while.

Thanks,

Bryan

[Ed Ashby]

#8186

Bryan, the A&A pattern is so simple that I cut mine from full length feathers using just a pair of quality scissors and a plastic template I use for a guide. It’s just two straight cuts.

A&A stands for Adcock and Ashby. After much research, trial and error, O.L. developed the concept for the high FOC flight arrows he was shooting (and using to set more than two dozen world flight records, in an unbroken string of consecutive tries). I got to wondering how an over-size version would work on the EFOC/UEFOC hunting arrows, so up-sized the concept, played around with the turbulator placement (finally coming up with the exact same placement as O.L. had determined for his flight arrows) and this is how the A&A pattern was developed.

Here’s the link to the thread with the A%A fletching segment

video from Kalamazoo.

https://www.tradbow.com/members/cfmbb/messages.cfm?threadid=FA8F1DC9-1422-1DE9-ED0EAC94FC3FF74A

Ed

[fartski]

#8935

Dr, Ashby,

Thanks again, I guess I’ll be playing around with this for while, but I think i’m still a novice and need the larger fletching to stabilize my arrows for now as my release need a lot of work

Aloha,

Bryan

[Stephen Graf]

#11394

I was interested in these short fletchings because I wanted to try to get more fletch from each feather. Maybe this wasn’t a good reason.

I finally figured out why I couldn’t follow the arrow in flight so well as my usual arrows. My usual arrows spin so fast, that the back end looks like a semi-solid disk the diameter of the fletch. The A&A don’t spin nearly so fast, and so my eye had to settle on the actual fletch to see them. Once I realized this, I could easily follow the arrows.

I increased the length of the fletching to 3 inches and the arrow behaved better. But it just doesn’t give me the forgiveness of my usual arrows. And as my wife says, I need all the forgiveness I can get 😳

But I am getting a take away from this. I started adding the turbulator to my arrows last year with measurable results. Now I am adding the straight back edge to my regular fletching. this moves the feather closer to the nock and gets rid of the “non working” length at the back of the fletch.

I was way off on my FOC calculation. I believe I said I had 28%. In truth, it is 21%. Experimenting to see what it would take to get me to 30%, I found that the needed additional weight was not acceptable to me.

It’s been a while since I gave my arrows the hairy eyeball. It was fun to fiddle and get a little something out of it. I thought later this summer (after my bear hunt in May) I may get some carbon impact whitetail shafts that have a weight of about 5 gpi (about half my GT 9.something gpi) and see if I can get the FOC better without making the arrows weight more than 13 gpp.

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