Congratulations Dave. That’s a great Coues deer. Sounds like you found one of those non-existent heavy bones in a deer’s body. Lots of folks maintain you don’t need an arrow designed to penetrate heavy bone when hunting “light big game”, because they don’t have any heavy bones.

You must have hit the spine fairly solidly to drop him in his tracks. Did you examine the vertebra to see if it was fractured? From what you describe I suspect it might have been. A glancing blow on the spine with no more force than an arrow carries, likely would not have dropped him in his tracks, particularly if the impact was not at a right angle to the spine. Or, perhaps, I’m misinterpreting your description and the shot was fully broadside.

Regardless of the shot angle, deflecting off a bone, with the arrow’s path being severely redirected, always robs you of a lot of penetration, but you clearly still had ‘enough’; and that’s precisely the reason for using a penetration enhanced arrow setup; something with far more penetration needed for those all too rare ‘perfectly placed’ shots. Half-a-shaft penetration on an arrow of that length is pretty good after hitting the spine.

That gaping entry wound that you note on your second shot occurs commonly when a single-bevel broadhead enters at an extreme angle to the surface of the tissues. It creates an elongated cut; a ‘slashing wound’, if you prefer; which is opened wide the other direction because of the broadhead’s rotation. You won’t often see this type of cut unless your single-bevel broadhead is truly sharp.

You did a pretty good job of hiding the blood in the photos, but the amount of blood still visible on his nose and chest, as well as on the grass, give a pretty good indication of what it was like. The huge amount of internal bleeding you have been noting; the ‘flooding” of the thorax with blood; is a routine feature of a thorax hit with a truly sharp single-bevel broadhead. Just as with the large, gaping entry wound, you won’t see that massive hemorrhaging unless you have that broadhead truly sharp. When those single-bevel heads are really sharp there’s often a large amount of blood-shot tissue along the entire arrow’s path. It’s frequently so pronounced that it truly does look, for all the world, like a high-velocity gun shot wound.

One gets the bone splits even when the broadhead is less than truly sharp, so lots of folks have noted them, but not as many folks have noted the massive soft tissue damage. I’ve been trying to tell folks for a long, long time about the advantages of the single-bevel BH’s in soft tissues – when the broadhead is truly sharp. The soft tissue damage they cause really does have to be seen before one can appreciate that a broadhead, of any type, can cause it.

Unfortunately there are a lot of bowhunters who have used single-bevels that were not truly sharp, and they (truthfully) are quick to say they don’t see much difference in either the soft tissue damage or hemorrhaging between them and a double-bevel broadhead.

I’ve had tons of folks ask me what I considered to be a truly sharp broadhead. In the past I was sometimes fortunate enough to have one at hand to show them, but usually I didn’t. Nowadays it is easier. When anyone ask me what a truly sharp broadhead is I just tell them to get one from Ron (AKA Sharpster) and check it out. That’s what a truly sharp broadhead is.

Ed

Damn timeout crap 😈 😈

suffice it to say I have seen the big bloody wounds and lost meat to it. I thought it was bad luck as to how the deer fell.

Now I know it is a characteristic of a sharp single bevel head. I guess I can live with the meat loss 8)

These heads are truly impressive. Their simple spartan design has not one angle, edge or molecule without purpose. They are beautiful.

Dave,

First and foremost, congrats on your Coues deer. I’ve never had occasion to hunt them in particular, but since they are simply a smaller subspecies of an animal with which I have considerable experience killing (whitetail deer), I feel it appropriate to share a few thoughts.

Regarding penetration on spine shots, unfortunately I have some experience with them on whitetails. To be honest, it takes very little to penetrate a vertebra and sever the spine. The first time I had it happen was on a mature doe that tried to string jump but wasn’t quite fast enough. With a 40-year old recurve and a 2215 tipped with a four-blade Zwickey Eskimo, penetration was no problem. Since then I can recall three other whitetails that I killed with accidental spine shots. All of them with basic 125-grain heads, and all ended with the broadhead exiting the far side of the animal.

As a matter of fact, the elk I killed in Colorado several years ago died the same way: bad shot through the spine, animal down on the spot, broadhead out the far side. My carbon arrow weighed about 520 grains and was tipped with an aluminum adapter and a 125-grain Ace Standard.

With respect to large, three-blade heads sharpened on a flat surface, two acquaintances of mine (one of whose father invented that particular brand of broadhead) hunted bull moose in BC several years ago with them. Both guys killed nice bulls with complete pass throughs. One of the bulls took the first shot, walked a few steps and stopped to look back (as the sometimes do), so the hunter sent a second arrow through the moose.

Please don’t take this the wrong way, but if you couldn’t get one of those heads through a Coues deer (which full grown is about the size of a Midwestern whitetail doe), something else was to blame aside from the broadhead. My paternal grandfather hunted for decades with a recurve pulling 42# @ 26” and had no problem putting three-blade heads on swagged aluminum shafts through whitetails year after year.

Again, congrats on your fine deer. He sure looks like a dandy.

Congrats on the buck. The reason I originally began reading and studying Doc’s reports was failed light, fast,mech BH, compound set-ups used on game(elk,deer,antelope mainly) locally.

An example is a friend hit an antelope buck in the humerous just above the elbow, watched it run off as the arrow fell out with a trashed mech BH in the dirt. He got that same buck a few weeks later with a rifle and without much damage from the arrow.

Why mention this? Simply another really light animal that needed a better arrow and BH.

If the critics would at least add some weight and strong BHs to their recipe it would be a huge improvement.

Dave,

For the record, I never sated anything about low poundage, multiblade flat-sharpened heads and elk. Whitetails? Yes. I think the history books answered that questions decades ago, and biologically speaking, whitetails haven’t changed. Although, what constitutes low poundage depends on whom you ask. I try not to speak about things with which I have no experience. In those cases it’s best to ask questions, not give answers.

In the end, we all should strive for the best setups we can find. Kudos to anyone pursuing that path. Unfortunately, I have seen all too often where folks find what works best for them—whatever that setup may be—and promote it with blinders firmly affixed. There is a local guy who is a friend of a friend, so we find ourselves sharing deer camp occasionally. He’s not shy about stating that nothing smaller than the 1-1/2” three-blade heads he uses should be allowed on whitetails, even though my recovery distances (I use 1-3/16” two-blade heads) average less than his. To him, my traditional equipment is unethical, so I don’t even discuss it with him anymore. I remember a few years ago reading on another site where someone credited a pass through on a whitetail doe fawn, in which he hit nothing heavier than a rib, on his Ashby-inspired arrow setup. Seriously…a whitetail doe fawn. I hit the back button on my browser and went on to another thread because that discussion had already gone downhill.

Internet forums can be excellent sources of information and discussion as long as everyone acts like an adult. Unfortunately, this is one of the few sites where that happens. Personally, I enjoy it when people counter my experiences with different points of view. That’s how we learn and grow as individuals. I’ve never been one to dig my heels in get defensive over differences of opinion (at least not since I was a teenager and knew everything), and I often forget that not everyone is that way.

Right on Dave, I love the desert in January, just a great place to be, those little desert dudes are fun also, icing on your cake.

I would pay good money to see your black and blue backside lol, nothing over a dollar tho lol.

Just a few of my observations about arrow / broadhead lethality, and a little experience with a single bevel.

I would have to agree with Doc. Ashby about hitting the spine a lot harder than just glancing off of it, more than likely you blew a chunk off of it, or split it, ( the only way a game animal is dropping in there tracks, is, they can’t move there legs ) the spine had to have a severe blow to it, to pinch or put pressure on the spinal cord, to disconnect the legs from moving.

Any sharp ( doesn’t even have to be that sharp ) broadhead through the vital organs is a dead animal. However, in my observation the sharper a head is, the quicker and more massive the hemorrhaging it produces, it also has a tendency to NOT stop bleeding.

In the beginning of my bowhunting life, we had no mentors and people to call on to educate us, so we hunted with broadheads out of the package, MA-3, Bodkins and even Ziwickys, did we kill ? you bet we did, lots of kills and lots of hard tracking.

Then someone told me to sharpen my broadheads and it would make for a QUICKER kill and a easier tracking job, thank God I listed to them, I could of rejected there unsolicited advise, and told the guy to mind his own business, I already had a big list of kills, and there was no reason to change my already successful ways.

But I thought, let me try it and see if there is any difference. If I recall correctly it was Bodkins I file sharpened, and guess what? I did notice a difference ( even though the metal is so soft, it’s hard to get a honed edge ) there was blood every where, and the trail was short.

I have always hunted with 55-70 lb bows and I did not always get a pass through, I have always wanted 2 holes, knowing that an exit is most desirable, that’s when I bought some grizzly 125’s, not knowing anything about this stupid single bevel, I just wanted a sleek broadhead to get more penetration, and again, I did notice, I was getting deeper penetration with this sleek broadhead with more exits.

I remember reading about this crazy doctor who lived in the bush, he did a study for Natal province in South Africa in 1985, my eyes where opened, I began to build the “MOST LETHAL” arrow I could design, my broadheads and arrows have changed over and over working on the best I could put together.

Right now my best is a Tuffhead 300gn with a 100gn steel adaptor, 4″ of 2117 over a 300 Goldtip 29″ long with 4×2″ A&A fletch, it has a 35.07% EFOC for a total arrow weight of 740 grains, out of a 60lb longbow.

Why single bevel? 1st it’s SHARPER, period. no if’s, and’s or but’s about it, as Ricky Bobby said: it’s science lol

2nd it pops or splits bone easier, allowing the broadhead to keep penetrating deeper into the vitals or creating an exit.

Just my 2 cents, and glade your OK.

King I am always impressed with that arrow setup. If at all possible could you show a close up of the external footing? I assume that you are shooting off the shelf, does that footing interfere with the process durring the draw cycle? Just curious on how you delt with the transition from carbon to aluminum.

Bill

Hi Rogue,

Yes, I do shoot off the shelf, and no, I don’t even notice when the arrow steps up, I chuck up the aluminum shaft in my hand drill and spin it on a file, so the transition is vary smooth.

Hi Dave,

No, I use the aluminum inserts, only because I’m to cheep to buy those brass inserts, if I want more weight I use a brass screw in the back of the insert ( 4 for a dollar ) or I use an internal footing.

I might try the brass some day, I know they are a lot stronger, it’s funny the evolution of my arrows, I have been all the way up to 1050 grains ( if I was shooting out of a tree stand I would use them, as your shot distance is way more predictable ) they make my bow dead quit and pack a big punch.

I like moving the weight to the front with a high EFOC and yet not shooting a telephone pole, as 90 +% of my hunting is spot and stock or still hunting, and I never know how far my shot will be, most are under 20yds, but some are longer.

hi king

can you tell us a little about the fletching you are using?

jgilmer wrote: hi king

can you tell us a little about the fletching you are using?

Jgilmer, this should help you, it’s all about them.

https://www.tradbow.com/members/cfmbb/messages.cfm?threadid=C8EA4FBD-1422-1DE9-ED1A1C909376B7B6

who sells the A&A fletches?

jgilmer wrote: who sells the A&A fletches?

No one! One of the great things about the A&A pattern is that the cut is so simple that all you need is a quality pair of sharp scissors and a templet for a guide. The back is a straight, verticasl cut, 1/2″ high. From there it is a straight taper to the leading edge.

Ed

ed

how far from the back of the shaft are you mounting them?

jgilmer wrote: ed

how far from the back of the shaft are you mounting them?

The farther back you can mount the feather the less fletching you’ll need (and the higher FOC you will achieve). That’s because mounting them farther back gives a longer steering arm for the fletching. Thus, it takes less fletching surface area to exert the same amount of steering pressure on the shaft’s rear. I mount mine as far back as I can and still have clearance for my shooting glove. I have friends using these with mechanical releases, and they set them virtually touching the nock. The can stabalize the 190 Grizzly, Brown Bear and Ashby BH with three 2″ fletches, even a compound speeds, under all wind conditions.

With my poor finger release I use 4 fletch, each 2.5″ long. With a really clean release one can use less. However, when determining how much fletching you need you’ll need to check a couple of things. First, be sure to check the flight of your arrow (with broadhead) in all wind conditions; cross wind, quartering wind, into the wind and with a trailing wind; to be certain that you have enough to overcome any windsheer effect of the broadhead. Second, shoot them enough to be sure there’s sufficient fletching for stable flight when you get one of those extra-poor finger release.

Ed

Threads like this, and the great info they contain, are a large part of why I renew my subscription.

excellent thanks so much Ed!

Yes, you would want to remove the forward part of the fletching then trim the remaining portion to a straight slope.

Troy makes his by cutting the front section off larger pre-cut fletching, by making a vertical cut at the rear. Apparently Troy has a HUGE supply of pre-cut feathers. I cut mine from full length feathers, and get several from one feather (cheap to make!).

The straight-back portion of the A&A pattern IS there for a purpose: it creates the least turbulence at the fletching’s rear (or so O.L. tells me, and he the aeronautics expert) which he says results in the least ‘noise’ in flight; and, as usual, I think he’s right. We tried small fletching with different cuts and the straight-cut trailing edge did sound quieter in flight. Regardless, just shortening the feathers and reducing the size and height of the fletching will reduce the amount of offset and helical surface; if you have offset and helical on the existing fletching; which will lower the sound level.

You are right about the BH’s you shoot; they have very low windsheer effect, so require less fletching.

As an aside, and something few consider: the TRUE FOC of an arrow depends on the location of the CENTER OF PRESSURE exerted on the arrow in flight. It’s likely that, if you use a lot of fletching the fletching may be lowering the TRUE FOC significantly, by shifting the Center of Pressur farther back along the shaft in flight.

Ed

[quote=Dr. Ed Ashby]Yes, you would want to remove the forward part of the fletching then trim the remaining portion to a straight slope.

Troy makes his by cutting the front section off larger pre-cut fletching, by making a vertical cut at the rear. Apparently Troy has a HUGE supply of pre-cut feathers. I cut mine from full length feathers, and get several from one feather (cheap to make!).

Hehehehehehehe!!!! If he only knew how many feathers I still have. It’s one of the drawbacks/advantages of having been in the archery business….:D

As a matter of fact I can take a 5″ feather and get two 2+” feathers.

Troy