[Arne Moe]

in reply to: Shooting bows with a shorter draw length than yours #45012

PS, HAVE to say this. “furtherest” ?!??! You DID mean Farthest didn’t you?

Arne

[Arne Moe]

in reply to: Shooting bows with a shorter draw length than yours #45007

Yes, it sounds like stacking to me. The bowyer PROBABLY assured the draw to 26″ based on the original order. Drawing 2″ past the rated draw length/weight has likely put you into “uncharted” territory. Check out the other thread that is similar to this for an explanation of stacking.

Arne

[Arne Moe]

in reply to: Need assistance with arrow spine. #39877

Thanks for breaking that post up a little — makes it easier to read.

Here are some ideas for you. First, when you shoot fletched arrows, are you getting satisfactory (satisfactory for you) groups? FORGET arrow flight for the moment, just shoot as consistently as you can and evaluate your groups. Here is the thinking behind this.

Any arrow of a given spine from too weak to too stiff (within reason and your current arrows are within reason) WILL produce good groups REGARDLESS of spine or arrow flight. That is IF you shoot them the same way each time and don’t try to “correct” with an execution change. IF you are not getting good groups (not talking about bull’s eyes JUST groups anywhere on the target!) then you need to correct your form and/or execution before continuing. Form/execution is BY FAR the MOST common reason for bad flying arrows — NOT tuning!!!!!!

You don’t mention how your bow is configured, extreme R/D, mild R/D, or “Hill” style. You do mention a Fast Flight string and the “short of center” cut. In any case, let’s start with your on the fingers weight (OTF) of about 40#. Hill style bows start best at their draw weight for spine. So 40# and let’s add 5# for FF string. IF an R/D add 5# for mild OR 10# for extreme.

What I find that works for me is to use the “old” wood spine standard for aluminum. In that “system” 1816 shafts spine at .500 which is about 52# spine rating. 1916s are .425 or about 61# spine rating. I don’t currently have a 1716 so don’t know offhand what the “wood standard” spine is for those. BUT… see below. Current spine listings are VERY different from this. An example is that 2016 shafts are listed as .500 but in the “wood standard” spine system 2016s are .360 or about 72# spine rating. No wonder most current charts recommend shafts that are too stiff???

NOTE: that these old wood standard spines are assuming a 125 grain point. Adding or subtracting 15 to 20 grains of point weight will change effective spine by about 5#.

Now, (here is my “disclaimer”) we DO all shoot differently (!) and have to find our own solutions but I think that IF you are shooting a Hill style bow 40# OTF and a 28″ arrow you will find “closeness” with a 1716. If more of an R/D 1816 should work.

For others that have a longer draw length, add 5# for each inch longer than 28″ (subtract for shaft lengths shorter).

Obviously this is not an exact science since personal form has HUGE effects on “theory.”

Hope this helps some and doesn’t just confuse.

Arne

PS. DO NOT RUSH to cut or change for tuning purposes!!!! Shoot for a few days before making permanent changes to your shafts. ONE session is not enough to base costly decisions on. A

[Arne Moe]

in reply to: Need assistance with arrow spine. #39246

James,

I for one am not ignoring you, but your “un-paragraphed” post is REALLY hard to read for these OLD!! eyes. I will re-attack this tomorrow and see if I can get you a recommendation for aluminum shafts. Stand by.

Arne

[Arne Moe]

in reply to: Shooting bows with longer draws than your draw length #39237

David,

I have found 3 applications for the word “stacking” to be used. In my answer above, a bow being drawn in it’s designed draw length range will commonly increase draw weight by 2 to 3 pounds per inch. So it builds up to it’s rated draw weight at a given draw length.

So the first ( and incorrect) use of “stacking” is usually by converted compound shooters who are not used to the weight build up as opposed to the let off of a compound. So they refer to the natural weight build up as stacking.

So there are really two causes of true stacking. The first is caused by the string angle to the limb tip. Bows vary but as the string angle approaches 80-90 degrees you start to pull on the limbs (try to stretch them length wise) and loose the leverage required to bend them. This causes a very fast jump in draw weight from that 2-3 pounds per inch to something noticeably much higher like 5 or more pounds per inch. You are loosing leverage for bending and wasting effort on trying to stretch the unstretchable.

Recurves (due to design) can maintain a much lower angle for a longer time than a longbow. That’s why most straight ended bows are generally longer than a recurve to serve a longer draw length.

The second true stacking example is when the actual elastic limits of the limb are reached. There is a physical point where the limb material simply cannot bend any more and material failure is the next and only option. At this point draw weight increases really fast per unit of draw and if the draw is continued the limb will fail.

Here is a simple experiment as an example. Take a piece of common wood lath – I think they are about 36 inches long (but doesn’t matter). Grab each end of the lath and slowly bend it. For a while, that bend will be smooth with just simple bending resistance. But you will get to a point where all of a sudden the bending feels like you hit a wall (it just doesn’t want to bend any more) — NOW bend it more — what happens? BOOM??!!

Long answer to a short question. To determine which it is you need to look at that string angle at full draw and evaluate it. Over 80 degrees means you are getting too close to the designed draw limits of the bow. That’s the first check.

The second is simply being practical and asking yourself if you are asking too short of a limb to bend too far and if you are reaching the material limits. This is why most bowyers have recommended draw ranges for given length bows. String angle and bending limb length.

That help?

Arne

[Arne Moe]

in reply to: Shooting bows with longer draws than your draw length #35928

All trad bows are made to have ABOUT the marked draw weight at the marked draw length. That in NO way means that shooting the bow at less draw length is bad. As mentioned, you will have less draw weight and a shorter power stroke but the bow will shoot just fine (if you do your job).

A bow that is marked 50#@30 inches, for example, just tells the owner that he can expect that drawing the bow to 30″ should reach about 50# and that he should NOT feel stacking.

On the other hand, a bow marked 50#@26″ will PROBABLY exhibit stacking if drawn to 30″ AND a LOT more draw weight than marked.

These aren’t compound bows that have a mechanically set draw length! The draw length marked is simply an indication that the bowyer has assured that the tiller will be smooth out to the marked length and what the expected draw weight should be at that point.

Arne

[Arne Moe]

in reply to: brace height problems? #21626

corpman,

6″ is WAAAYYY too low for the Sage!! Set that brace height at about 8″ and see what happens.

A good grip AND bow arm elbow rotated will also help. BUT when the string is hitting at or near where you wear a watch, it is nearly ALWAYS too low of a brace height.

[Arne Moe]

in reply to: Pont On #61607

Not quite that simple I think. Your Point On (PO) is determined LARGELY by where your arrow nock is in relation to your eye. At least that has the greatest effect on PO. Nock point and arrow rest height don’t have a lot to do with it. Arrow length can help as can slowing your arrow velocity. But the biggest factor to reduce PO is nock below eye distance.

That’s why many move to 3 under shooting as compared to split finger. That will reduce your Point On Distance the most.

Arne

[Arne Moe]

in reply to: Arrow length #47034

Carbons are very sensitive to length. I’d suggest leaving them full length and work down from there a 1/4 or 1/2 inch at a time. Sneak up on final length.

Arne

[Arne Moe]

in reply to: Acute target panic… How to cure? #9221

Would that be “free advice” that you are giving too Fallguy?

🙄

Arne

[Arne Moe]

in reply to: prescription glasses.? #8873

I’ve never had a problem due to the shape of the glasses. That’s from the large “aviator” to just standard shaped glasses. If your hand is hitting the frames or bows of the glasses, you may have your string hand too high on your face at your anchor position. In my opinion, the base knuckle of your string hand should not come higher on your face than just under the cheek bone (split or 3 under). That is somewhere around an inch under the glasses and should not interfere or hit the frames.

Would need to see a picture of you at full draw to help much more, I think.

Arne

[Arne Moe]

in reply to: prescription glasses.? #8862

Got to ask, what do you mean by style? Shooting style or glasses style (design)?

Arne

[Arne Moe]

in reply to: Acute target panic… How to cure? #62889

No upset or offense at all Mike! A good discussion on a difficult subject.

You make legitimate points! And YES, “Treat EVERY gun as though it was loaded!” The point I was trying to make, though, was this. When shooting at a (any) target you don’t set a very careful AIM and THEN reach in your pocket grab a cartridge, open the action, insert the cartridge, close the action and ALL the while hold the “aim” very carefully on the target. You don’t do a “final aim” until the gun is ready to fire.

Drawing the bow is similar to that in that you have to draw the bow before it can be shot. “Looking” at the target for alignment purposes is (IMO) different from aiming for the actual shot. During the shot, your mind needs to be running the steps of the shot and the actual “aiming” step (in at least one style) is AFTER reaching anchor and is only ONE step that is done then you mentally move on.

I’ll use this example for the distinction between “looking” and “aiming.” For those of you that are familiar with (GASP!!) compound bows: You “look” at the target and orient yourself to it (stance, bowhand, etc.)at the start of the shot/draw. BUT you do not set final “aim” until at full draw and you are able to align the peep and the front sight — final aim. Then you move on to activating the release.

There are two legitimate schools of thought for the archery shot. One is Fred’s that suggests conscious aiming and a subconscious shot execution. This DOES work for many and I have all the respect in the world for Fred! I took his clinic down at Black Widow a few years ago.

Another school of thought is the “conscious shot execution and subconscious aiming” school. This is the one I have found to help those with the curse of TP the most. Often just changing the thought process is all it takes to reduce the TP issue. That is why some folks find success in switching hands. They have to think harder about what they are doing.

Mike is also correct in how much practice it takes to make changes. This is important! Too many do not give changes a fair chance to take effect. They think that if a change doesn’t help TODAY that it doesn’t work for them. That is why I mentioned that trying this during the “season” may not be a good thing. Plan to spend a couple MONTHS working on changes and BE PATIENT!

There are no easy answers to TP! But helping reduce the effects requires a CHANGE to what the shooter is currently doing and thinking. Everyone is “wired” a little differently and they each need to find what works for them. That takes thought and honest self evaluation. And maybe a little “outside help” too.

Arne

[Arne Moe]

in reply to: Acute target panic… How to cure? #62415

Dodge, Doc Noc alerted me to this thread. It is a difficult thing and probably hard to fix in the middle of the “season.” There are some good suggestions above but let’s see if I can “boil it down” a little for you.

What you are doing – it sounds like – is letting your subconscious run the shot and you are mentally concentrating on the aim. I am convinced that the reverse should be done. Concentrate on the mechanics of the shot and let the subconscious aim. This is what the blank bale exercise does for you. You concentrate on running the shot (no matter the situation – target, hunting, etc.) with your mind stepping through each step! You ONLY aim AFTER you get to the “anchor” step. Then move your thinking on to release and follow through.

Your subconscious is really powerful BUT it wants to skip needed steps. So if you only give it ONE thing to do, there is nothing to skip. Give it the aiming step only and mentally control the rest of the shot yourself.

This change in thinking during the shot takes some practice and as I said, probably difficult during hunting season.

In the meantime, try to NOT worry about the shot itself until you are at full draw. There is no point to aiming until ready to shoot and that is full draw. You wouldn’t aim a gun before you load it would you?

Arne

[Arne Moe]

in reply to: Dominant Eye #48699

Many coaches will tell you that it is “preferable” to shoot the same side as eye dominance. If you are able to do that, you just have one less obstacle to overcome.

That said, there are many examples of outstanding archers shooting cross dominant so it certainly CAN be done. AND there are many physical reasons to shoot cross dominant. There are even ways to retrain your eye dominance if you want.

Shoot how you like with expectations of success, but if you at all can shoot the same handedness as your eye dominant side, it is just easier in the long run.

Arne

[Author]

Posts