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Steve,
I noticed that as well, which was quite impressive. But specifically, I was referring to this quote:
“All of these shots exceed the penetration shown/described by any of the compound’s reported Cape buffalo shots.”
Ed noted that all of his test shots produced exit wounds. All of Pat’s shot resulted in exit wounds as well (including one shot through the shoulder blade). So I was curious as to what I missed with regard to “…exceed the penetration…”
Ed,
Having watched the videos you speak of on Bowsite, I’m confused as to what you mean by the differences in penetration. On all of the test shots on Pat’s buffalo, they got complete penetration, including through the shoulder blade. Could you please clarify the differences in penetration to which you are referring? Thanks.
in reply to: Why are small game hunter #'s falling? #42409If I had to guess why so few hunt small game these days, I’d have to probably attribute it to two factors:
1) You seldom, if ever, see folks hunting small game on TV shows or read about it in magazines (TBM excluded).
2) There’s no trophy value in small game. Even in bowfishing we have “trophy” carp, gar, whatever. But when was the last time anyone heard someone describing a rabbit or squirrel as a trophy because it had a long tail or huge ears?
While I would like to see more mainstream media exposure to small game hunting, I hope we never see a day when people start referring to “trophy groundhogs.”
in reply to: Idea – already tried?? #34139J-Dog,
If I’m not mistaken, the rule of thumb is that every 35 grains added to the tip weight decreases dynamic spine by 5#. Coincidentally, one inch of change in shaft length will have the same effect. This was for wood or aluminum arrows, but with carbon arrows you have a little more leeway than 35 grains of tip weight before you change dynamic spine by 5#. Notice I said a little—carbons may be nice, but they don’t defy the laws of physics.
Since we’re both shooting Easton/Beman carbons, I went down to my shop and ran some numbers for you. On my spine tester (brand new Ace Spin-Spine), here’s what I found for an average of several shafts in each spine class:
400’s = 82#
340’s = 95#
300’s = 110#Basically, every spine class moves you 15# of stiffness one way or the other.
For me: a 340 with 150 grains of total tip weight will bareshaft the same as a 300 with 300 grains up front, with respect to weak/stiff spine. So if I had to put a raw number on how many grains up front it takes to shift dynamic spine by 5#, I’d have to ballpark it at 50.
According to your posts, you are currently shooting 400’s with about 260 grains up front (160-grain head, 100-grain adapter). Adding 100 grains more to the front will weaken the dynamic spine of your shafts approximately 10#. 200 grains will weaken them by 20#. That’s why you’re seeing increasingly worse arrow flight as you add more tip/insert weight. If you want to add 100 grains up front and achieve the same excellent flight as your current arrows, you’ll have to go to a 340 shaft and leave them a little long.
Remember, heavy arrows an EFOC are not substitutes for poor arrow flight, which is probably why Ashby ranks perfect arrow flight above EFOC and arrow mass with respect to his findings of their effects on penetration. But before you can worry about penetration, you have to first hit where you’re aiming. When you put a broadhead on the front of a poor-flying arrow, you can pretty much throw consistent shooting out the door.
in reply to: 2 Blade Blood Trails? #32439My standard “go-to” setup is a recurve pulling mid-50’s for poundage and carbon arrows weighing around 9gpp (500-510 grains). I use 125-grain heads and standard Flightmate glue-in adapters (I think they weigh approximately 20 grains). If my memory is correct the FOC on my arrows is in the neighborhood of 12%, although I really don’t pay attention to FOC. I’ve only measure it once in the last 20 years, and that was because someone asked.
There’s really nothing to be confused about with respect to whitetails being one of the easiest North American big game animals to penetrate. Compared to the rest of the animals in that category (at least in the conventional sense) they are lightweight, have thin skin, and with proper shot placement they don’t have much of any heavy bone obstructing the vitals.
in reply to: 2 Blade Blood Trails? #31963Along the lines of proper context, please bear in mind I was responding to a statement about it being nearly impossible to achieve a pass through on a whitetail shot from a treestand, not necessarily trying to shoot through heavy bone (which really isn’t a good idea to begin with). So that brings us back to number of bevels being 9th out of 10. Personally, if I couldn’t repeatedly get arrows through whitetails, the number of bevels on my broadheads would be the absolute last of my concerns.
Let’s be honest, in terms of North American big game, whitetails are one of the easiest species to penetrate.
You asked if I’ve ever hit a whitetail shoulder blade or similar heavy bone, and the answer is yes—barring one instance, all on the offside, as it should be. The sole entrance side heavy bone hit occurred when I misjudged the distance on a whitetail buck and hit the upper leg bone just below the knuckle where it attaches to the shoulder blade. I broke the bone in half, went through the chest, and stuck the arrow in the dirt. The deer was down in a few second leaving a blood trail I could follow from my treestand.
All of the rest of my heavy bone hits (shoulders and upper leg bones) have been on the exit wound side of shots. Every time, without fail, I have broken through those bones and had complete pass throughs. As a bonus, the double bevel 2-blade heads I shoot have never even come out with dubbed tips, let alone any real damage.
in reply to: You Favorite Broadhead and why ? #29043jer11bravo wrote: I shoot an ACE 2 blade 145 grn broadhead.I was told by a few people that you shouldnot shoot bear or even hogs with a two blade because of lack of penatration and little blood trails the two blades leave. what is your opion. depending on the economy I’m planning on going on a hog hunt maybe this fall.
A friend of mine, Curtis Kellar, runs a hog hunting operation out of South Texas. He’s probably killed more hogs than most pig farmers. His head of choice is a 2-blade. That tells me a lot.
I shoot the 125-grain version of the same broadhead you use. There’s not an animal on this continent I’d hesitate to hunt with it.
in reply to: Heavy or light arrows #29031shosier wrote: The other issue I wonder about is this FOC. TJ discusses the desired FOC formula in his book and these heavy tip arrows don’t seem to match the formula quite right. How important is FOC to you guys that have been shooting a long time? Does it make a big difference in arrow performance?
Up until a few months ago, I hadn’t measured FOC on one of my arrows in close to 20 years. I was discussing moose hunting with someone and they asked about the specs of the arrow I shot through my bull. Since these were of the same basic arrow configuration I’d been using since 2001, I became curious and did some calculations. If memory serves, they weigh within a few grains of 500 (about 9gpp on my normal hunting bows), and with 20-grain Flightmate adapters and 125-grain heads, their FOC is somewhere around 12%.
To answer your original question: FOC is not of much importance to me. But if I were to hunt something larger and tougher than elk or moose, I may rethink that opinion.
in reply to: 2 Blade Blood Trails? #28882sharpster wrote: Many of us hunt from treestands and it’s a heck of a lot harder to even get an exit hole when shooting through a deer from the top down, and achieving a complete pass through is nearly impossible.
Ron
Hello, Ron. While I agree with much of what you posted, the above quote is the exception. I haven’t been bowhunting as long as some here (only about 25 years), but I’ve never had any problems getting complete pass throughs on Midwestern whitetails shot from treestands. For decades, my paternal grandfather had no problems doing the same out of treestands with a 42# recurve shooting 400-something-grain arrows and 3-blade heads COI heads. To be honest, none of my regular hunting partners have experienced penetration issues either. If we were to compare penetration, we’d have to do so in inches of dirt, not inches of tissue.
Unless someone’s shooting extremely low poundage, if they are having penetration problems with whitetails, I’d be inclined to believe something other than number of bevels on their broadheads is to blame. After all, Ashby states that, with respect to penetration, proper bow tuning on ranks second only to the arrow’s structural integrity—the number of bevels ranks 9th out of 10.
That being said, I switched to 2-blade heads (Ace Standards to be exact) from 3- and 4-blade models back in 2004 in anticipation for an elk hunt. I liked the heads and the gentleman who makes them so much that I’ve shot them ever since. Five hunting seasons and a couple dozen big game animals later (deer, wild boar, elk and moose) I have yet to see any meaningful difference between the amount of blood an animal leaves on the ground and how many blades I shoot through them. Sharp edges and proper shot placement seem to play a bigger role in that regard than does broadhead size. But then again, the same could be said for penetration as well.
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