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in reply to: Tuning with Crystalshrimp. #15397
Crystalshrimp wrote:
There’s a lot of talk about nock kick versus planing and
What you don’t want to do is pay attention to how the bare shafts are sticking in the target, as the target media can cause them to stick in at odd angles.
Ill try to explain what Bully26 is seeing. Eactime he shoots his target it seems that his arrows are being shot from an angle. He is hitting his target but his arrow all look like someone else is shooting them from a 45 degree angle. In his defense i can say that we are practicing on hay bales that have been shot hundreds if not thousands of times. ( my shots were dead on but after impact the tail end of the shaft kicked straight up) would moving our nocks up or down help?
If you’re seeing bare shafts group with fletched shafts, but suspect they are not flying straight, back up five to ten yards and shoot again. The closer you get to being in tune, the further it takes for the bare shaft to plane because it’s not leaving with bow with as much kick. As you move back, your tuning becomes a magnifying glass with increasing power — it lets you see things in greater detail.If your bare shafts are leaving the bow tail high but impacting with your fletched shafts, back up and see if they start impacting low. If you’re shooting only bare shafts at a spot (i.e. not comparing their impact to fletched shatfs) then all bets are off. Bare shaft tuning works by comparing bare shafts (which won’t correct in flight) to fletched ones (which will correct in flight).
in reply to: Tuning with Crystalshrimp. #15316dwcphoto wrote: Okay, let me ask a simple sort of question and see if I can twist this up any more…
The object is to get the bare shaft to fly to the same place as the fletch shaft, right? Then you would already have fletched shafts that fly fine and why would you bare shaft?
Just for the record, I started bare shaft tuning a new set-up yesterday, so I’m on board. I’ll bare shaft til they fly right, then fletch a couple and compare??
Thanks for the continued explanations and patience.That’s an excellent question. Fletching basically serves two purposes: to correct for poor arrow flight, and to overpower the steering tendencies of a broadhead. With field points, you can group rather well with untuned arrows. As a matter of fact, the arrows I used to sucessfully compete with in NFAA Barebow were quite overspined. But put a broadhead on an out-of-tune arrow and you’ll see erratic wind planing.
Sometimes our eyes are not so good at picking up initial nock kick with fletched arrows before they correct, especially porpoising which kicks up and down in line with how we see the arrow’s trajectory. I have a good friend who’s exceptional at being able to tune by watching his fletched arrows. For him, bare shaft tuning simply confirms what he already knows. I wish my eyes were that good. After spending nearly 30 years in competitive shooting, and seeing countless examples of people who thought their corkscrew-flying arrows were tuned, I’m convinced my friend is by far the exception.
So the simple answer is this: because sometimes what we think we see isn’t what’s really happening.
in reply to: Tuning with Crystalshrimp. #15248bully26 wrote: J. Wesbrock
I watched arrow flight out to 12-15 yards and consistently arrow flight effected impact angle. While tuning, my arrows would consistently kick in a specific direction upon impact.
So… as long as the arrows are accurate, impact angle doesn’t matter? Shouldn’t the mass of the entire arrow impact as “stacked” as possible. Wouldn’t any deviation upon impact cause the tail of the arrow to be less of a factor?
I shortened my arrow and corrected the kick a little more but then ran out time.
Simply, I just don’t understand how impact of a bareshaft has no effect on a finished arrow.
Thanx in AdvanceIt is true that arrow flight can affect impact angle, but so can the target media itself. That’s why you can’t take how the arrow sticks in the target as gospel. Remember, it’s not the “how,” it’s the “where” that counts. If an arrow flies at an angle, it will veer off and impact away from your fletched shafts. But it can fly perfectly straight, hit the target, and kick to one side or the other. And while it’s easy to see an arrow plane if it veers a lot, there’s a reason why folks generally shy away from tuning by watching arrow flight. It encourages people to peek during the shot, which can create a whole mess of shooting problems.
in reply to: Tuning with Crystalshrimp. #15132bully26 wrote: Hello ARCHERS!:D
I didn’t want to hijack crystalshrimp’s post so I just started my own.
Crystalshrimp and I had different ideas. I received my advice from Masters of the Barebow II(borrowed from crystalshrimp!), the bareshaft tuning portion. Watching it simply made sense so I began my tuning session with that in mind. C.S. had a different idea.
I have MBB II, and while I thought it was an excellent DVD, the bareshaft tuning portion was incomplete.
There’s a lot of talk about nock kick versus planing and point of impact. With respect to bare shafts, the nock kick is what creates the plaining (think of a boat rudder), thus leading to different points of impact for fletched versus bare shafts. With no fletching, a bare shaft cannot correct itself in flight.
What you don’t want to do is pay attention to how the bare shafts are sticking in the target, as the target media can cause them to stick in at odd angles. You want to compare where the bare shafts impact relative to the fletched arrows: nothing more, nothing less.
bully26 wrote: My question is… Why is FOC tuning different from HFOC tuning? To me flight is flight and impact is impact.
You’re correct. There is no difference. Physics is physics, and tuning principles don’t change based on what a calculator spits out regarding FOC. I’ve tuned arrows ranging from low to normal to extremely high FOC based on the Easton Tuning Guide and never had a problem.
My best advice on the subject, as always, is to download the Easton Tuning Guide, or read Adcock’s paraphrasing of the technique, and go with that. It’s worked just fine for decades, and is the gold standard for a reason
in reply to: My first Deer is down! #14868Beautiful hunt, animal, story, and photo. Well done!!!
in reply to: Questions about my bareshaft tuning today. #14076That’s one of the main reasons why I always reccomend people tune how they shoot. Why tune a bow by shooting it with a style you don’t otherwise intend to use? For some people, shooting canted and vertical isn’t an issue. For others it is. Byron Ferguson actually makes mention of his point of impact shifting depending on his degree of cant, and he definately knows how to shoot a bow.
Best suggestion: tune it how you shoot it. If the up/down/left/right seems confusing with a canted bow, simply draw crosshairs on your target and cant it to match your bow — problem solved.
The Easton Tuning Guide (available as a free online download) is an excellent technical how-to resource. It’s the gold standard for a reason. For a version of the Easton guide explained in a different format, Adcock’s page provides another excellent tutorial.
in reply to: So dang funny!!! #8294wildschwein wrote: Yah the snide comments get a bit old, but unlike down South there are alot of folks in Northern Canada that don’t think a trad bow is a serious weapon. And I have met more than one that are actually opposed to them being used for anything more than small game!
Guess I’ll just have to prove em wrong.When I showed up in NW Ontario for a moose hunt five years ago with a recurve, it raised a few eyebrows. The comments weren’t demeaning or insulting, just curious as to whether or not such a bow was capable of killing a moose (as if history hadn’t long ago put that debate to bed). After my arrow went in one side and out the other, I didn’t hear anymore questions.
in reply to: Where have all the Grizzlies gone? #8207Last weekend I heard some second-hand info from one of the broadhead manufacturers I know. I don’t want to crank up a rumor mill, so short of confirmation I’ll just say that you may want to look elsewhere for broadheads this season.
in reply to: differant weights? #8096Sam,
If I paid for a set of arrows and they ended up with a 77-grain weight difference, someone’s phone would ring with my unhappy self on the other end. It’s no wonder wood arrows get a bad reputation when this is the level of quality some vendors find acceptable. Whatever arrow material you choose, always make sure they are matched in both weight and spine.
in reply to: How’s the outlook for deer in your area? #62767My wife and I bought some property in Wisconsin this year, and while the deer sign on our place looks great, I have no way of knowing if the herd is up or down from recent years. Talking to other landowners in the area has yielded mixed opinions. Some of them think we’re overrun with deer; others say the herd is light. I suppose some properties are better than others. We have a lot of mature oaks, a spring-fed creek, and a good percentage of thick bedding cover. Other properties in the area are nothing more than open prairie and plantation pines.
Either way, I’m really enjoying putting the pieces together on a new proerty this year. It’s been too long since I’ve had to figure out a tract of hunting land from scratch, and I’m sure any tags I fill this season will feel all that much more rewarding.
in reply to: So dang funny!!! #61338wildschwein,
It’s unfortunate that some people feel the need to make snide comments like that. I can only remember once having a compound shooter try to give me a hard time. Aside from that, any comments I receive are genuine curiosity — how do you aim one of those things, what kind of broadheads do you use, and such. One thing I’ve learned over nearly 30 years of competitive shooting is the folks who yap the loudest generally can’t hit a wall tent from the inside, and that goes for traditional and compound shooters alike.
in reply to: An in depth look at "Bare Shaft Tuning" #55707Steve,
The author you found was correct. How the bare shaft sticks in the target is of zero significance. Honestly, I’m at a loss to explain where the notion that it’s important came from. The only thing that’s important is where the bare shafts impact relative to fletched arrows. If a bare shaft doesn’t fly straight, it will act like a boat rudder and plane off in the direction its pointing. A fletched arrow, by design, can correct itself in flight. That’s why the two different points of impact — bare shafts versus fletched arrow — will tell the tale. Shooting bare shafts without fletched arrows will only tell you if your tuning is WAY off, because you’ll see the bare shaft veer off severely in flight. But for real fine tuning, you need to incorporate fletched arrows into the equation.
The Easton Tuning Guide (available as a free online download) has been the gold standard in bare shaft tuning for decades. Even the “graduate level” FITA tuning routines (tuning for tens, walk back tuning, etc.) merely expand on what’s found in the Easton Guide. Adcock’s page is simply a reworking of the basics in a less technical format some find easier to follow, which was an excellent idea. His page definitely helped put to rest some of the tuning myths from several years ago, but unfortunately, more seem to have popped up since then.
Honestly, bare shaft tuning is anything but complicated. The nuts and bolts of it can be summed up in a few short paragraphs. I think most confusion is the result of people either trying to invent some new and improved, personalized version (which is generally neither new nor improved), or folks trying to teach something they don’t themselves understand.
in reply to: Best arrow material. Carbon, wood, or aluminum. #47230Steve Sr. wrote: Not in any way is there a reason to put down the many arrow shaft types. Each indeed offer something the others may not and I’ve used them all successfully……I just do have a preference for a fine woodie!
All in the eye of the guy/gal behind the bow, IMHO.
God Bless
Steve Sr.I agree. Carbon, aluminum, and wood are all up to the task. History has more than proven that point. For what it’s worth, I watched a DVD again the other night where Don Thomas put a broadhead on the tip of a wood shaft completely through a water buffalo. I doubt any game species on this continent would put up anywhere near that amount of resistance to penetration.
At the end of the day, it all comes down to what your personally prefer. For the most part I use carbon shafts because I want an arrow that won’t warp or bend and finishes up between eight and nine grains per pound. If I can put that completely through a mature bull moose (twice, for the record) I’m not the least bit concerned about lethality on anything else I’m likely to hunt.
in reply to: 2 blade broadhead orientation #44922cyberscout wrote: Ah -Yes, BH initial orientation at launch, definitely could have some effect. Has anyone done any tests out of a Bow Machine Rest [ I believe they exist?] and ultra slow mo photography. It would be interesting to see how different style arrows performed. Of course that would take away some of the ART!? Maybe best to just wonder, and shoot the way one likes –haha
Scout.I’ve never done any testing with a machine, but I do test, tune, and practice with my broadheads every year at ranges from 10 to 60+ yards (not that I shoot animals that far, or even close to it). So long as your arrows are set up and tuned properly, broadhead orientation should have no effect on arrow flight. At no range that I practice do I see any drifting off the line or horizontal stringing.
For what it’s worth, I align my broadheads vertically. It’s just a visual thing for me when I shoot.
in reply to: Carbon bare shaft tuning question #40927cyberscout wrote: Since we are talking about cutting down Carbons in small/accurate increments. I was wondering what other members use to accomplish this. I have tried a numbered of field expedient methods, not all wildly successful. I am trying to avoid paying $250.00 for the advertised cutters.
Scout.I use a Dremmel tool with a cutoff wheel mounted on a homemade jig. A lot of people use the little chop saw Harbor Freight sells for around $30 or so and say it works great.
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