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in reply to: My Setup Adequate for Elk??? #35967

Ed thanks for the feedback. I was planning on trying to locate a mixed bag of arrows and see what might work. Not many shops in a normal driving distance around here and with mail order, shipping seems to make it always cost more somehow.

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in reply to: My Setup Adequate for Elk??? #35964

No offense taken by me, it’s a valid question, but a simple one for me. Its a matter of economics. TThe best price i have seen for shafts like the tapered carbons is $99 for 6 and i can get a dozen alum for almost half.

I would love to get top line carbons, since thats the kind of thing i would have done while working, but since i was forced to retire 2 years ago (mmandantory age requirement), money has gotten tight, being at just about half the income of what i was making before. I do shoot an older Mathews compound (Q2XL)and shoot carbons from it. Those are nearing the point of needing replaced or updated and i cannot afford to do so.

I wish it were otherwise, but it just isn’t.

[handirifle]

in reply to: My Setup Adequate for Elk??? #35757

Mike
Thanks. Looking at the chart on the 3 Rivers site, I would go from about mid range on the 400’s (xx75, 2117’s) (200gr point) to the very bottom of the 340’s, with a 29″ arrow. My draw is just at 27 so I don’t want any more arrow than that hanging out there, especially with a 3″ head added on.

I assume the extra insert weight adds to the point weight, in determining spine, correct?

I found some of my sons old 2116’s and tried them (2″ longer), but didn’t bare shaft test. I might shave the feathers off one just to see where I sit. I probably need to order some heavy practice points (as was suggested) and inserts to see what really works, and then work on getting the rest of the heads later. I have to be really careful being on fixed income, and the funds being pulled in about 6 different directions.

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in reply to: My Setup Adequate for Elk??? #35314

I found the brass inserts, but for limited arrow sizes (aluminum), at 3 Rivers, any others?

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in reply to: My Setup Adequate for Elk??? #35296

MCuiksa wrote: [quote=MCuiksa]Bow: 62# Recurve. Broadhead: Tusker Concorde 250gn.
Arrow: 730gr total weight (11.8 gr/lb of draw). XX75 300 Aluminum 30″ long. Balance point is 5″ forward (16.7% FOC).
Brace Height 7 5/8″ (sounds good, quiet with no shock)
Nock Sets/Silencers/General Setup produce bare shafts grouped with fletched arrows. Bare shafts shoot nock high 1-2 inches.

This forum (specifically, the authors that provide the content to this forum) is incredible. I’ve never had a setup shoot as good as the one I have right now thanks to the valuable info you’ve provided. Here’s my updated info and I love how it shoots:
I now have 300gr upfront plus the brass inserts. Arrow is now 847gr (13.7gr/lb of draw). FOC is 20.4%. Same brace ht. Nock set lowered 1/32″ to tweak bare shaft performance. Still quick and silent, no shock. Took 1/2″ off arrow length to help with heavier points.
I was shooting at 14 yards (seems like a randow number, BUT IT’S WHERE THE SHADE ENDED!!) 😆 this morning for my final test and had to quit shooting (6) arrow sets because they were hitting one another and I was afraid I’d tear some up!! Amazing. Thanks again. Mike. 😀

I have some more questions.
When looking at arrow selection charts, they never show point weight above 200gr, how do you select an arrow when planning on using a 250 or 300gr head, plus a heavy insert?

Where did you get brass inserts for alum arrows?

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in reply to: My Setup Adequate for Elk??? #32533

Ed,
Yes it does help, thanks. Yes my reference WAS to an already tuned shaft. Quite an interesting departure from many previous thoughts. I have read (never been there) that many African countries require the ultra heavy shafts for bow hunters, but I wonder what they know, if anything, about the effect of the FOC of that weight?

MCuiksa

I might be wrong, but the nock high issue you refer to, will not change with tip weight. That has to do with string nock location. it sounds like yours is a bit high.

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in reply to: Shooting form question #31740

Yes they would be heavy, but after reading up on the EFOC concept it might not be bad. I like the effect of the heavy arrow anyway, since it makes a bow quieter and smoother shooting, both pluses in my book.

Thanks for the tip on the tips, will look into them.

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in reply to: My Setup Adequate for Elk??? #31734

I am new to this EFOC idea, but have always liked a heavy arrow over a light one because it makes a quieter bow. I have always read they penetrate better as well, but the EFOC idea is intriguing.

I do have some questions on it though. The 650gr lower limit; does this weight apply regardless of draw weight?

The comment that a heavy broadhead weight does not affect arrow flight has me scratching my head. A heavy point can affect the bare shaft tuning, requiring a stiffer shaft, so by that I am assuming that is part of the overall plan? A stiffer, thus heavier shaft? But does not the heavier shaft then affect arrow flight?

Please straighten me out.

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in reply to: Tuffhead update #30376

WOW, I didn’t even know they made heads that heavy. I am amazed that they give good arrow flight. Must be some STIFF shafts.

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in reply to: FastFlight Strings #30373

One definite drawback to any of the newer “non stretch” fibers, is that they require reinforced tips on the bow.

Without the addition of something like linen micarta or similar, it will eventually tear through the standard, wood laminated tip. not a good thing to have happen to a bow, especially at today’s bow prices.

I believe most of these were created because of the tremendous stress forced on the bowstring and cables, of compound bows. Compounds started with coated steel cables, but when makers like High Country, started using the high speed cams and synthetic cables, to add even more speed, they found the basic materials stretched too much. i owned one of the older, dual hatchet cam, speed bows, and can attest to the fact that string and cable stretch were a very common issue. I shot in weekly shoots, and had to re-time the cams about every other month. What a PITA.

Even the fastest recurves do not stress a properly sized string like a compound does, so personally i do not see the need.

As for speed gain, I took a 66″ Martin recurve that pulled 60lbs, down to 55lbs (limbs were narrowed and thinned by Tim Meigs. This was about 15 years ago), and I added micarta to the tips, and a fast flight string, whereas before it sported a dacron one.

At 60lbs, shooting a 540gr arrow, it shot at 165fps. At 55lbs, with the fast flight, and same arrow, it shot 172fps. I removed 5 lbs draw weight and added 7fps. Part of that speed gain, I am sure, also came from a lighter narrower limb design as well. How much was each? i never put the dacron back on to test, but looking back, I should have. The bow was noisier, no matter how it was tuned, but since it was a 3D bow, it didn’t matter to me.

Limb design can make a bow pull smooth, or not, shoot fast or not, or be quiet or not. A bow that is all of the above, is a well designed and built bow. Hand shock is another factor in shooting smoothness, and speed. I equate hand shock to recoil of a rifle. If one is a little afraid of recoil, you will not shoot as accurate as if recoil is not a concern. To me, the same logic applies to hand shock. We do not like it and will subconsciously try to avoid it. Sometime this equals a adjust grip, letting go of the bow at the release, or changing hand positions at the release. this applies to all kinds of bows.

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in reply to: Shooting form question #30343

It’s more than a “bit” left, I’d say somewhere in the neighborhood of 2-3″ left (way too much I know) actually, and this may very well be why I get the grouping I did the last go round, Two tight and a left flier.

I will look for some reasonably priced 2016’s and see what I can do with it.

I went looking around and found out the Wendsels come in 125 and 150gr screw in models. Wondering if the 125’s would be a better matchup with the 2016’s. Weight wise, it would be better cause i have 125gr target points to bare shaft tune with. No guessing that way.

[handirifle]

in reply to: Shooting form question #29558

OK, I thought I answered this from my phone, maybe that’s why some of my emails go unreplied to…..

I will look into the 2016’s. I started looking into new shafts today, and it seems like there is a trend that has happened since I last bought arrow shafts (long time ago) and that is the 500, 400, 340 yada yada…numbering system.

I personally like the older system. It allows me to select a heavier than normal shafts, if so desired, that still meets the tuning requirements. There were a lot more sizes to choose from.

kinda like choosing any color of car you want, as long as it’s the one they want you to use.

[handirifle]

in reply to: Shooting form question #28432

Steve Graf wrote: I think of shooting sort of like dancing. One partner has to lead, and the other has to follow. If the person following is not doing a good job, then the person leading gets all boogered up too.

For me, it’s the same with a bow. If I am shooting a bow that isn’t tuned properly and “following my lead”, then my form goes all to hell too.

I would almost go so far as to say that if the bow/arrow combo is not shooting correctly, it is not possible to establish good form with it.

I humbly suggest that you give yourself a break. Don’t concentrate on, or worry about, your form until you get a good bare shaft tune from your setup.

Well went dancing:D tonight. I did bareshaft tune, sort of. The shafts hit nock left, which for me is too stiff an arrow (leftie), but the sorta part, is I have no field points as heavy as the Wendsels. They weigh in the neighborhood of 170gr, with the inserts (they were glue on heads, from the wood arrow days) and my heaviest field point is 125gr. I remember in the Black Widow, Tour and Tuning video I have, he said a little nock left with field points is ok, if you’re going to use broadheads. They require a slightly stiffer arrow to help stabilize.

So with that factored in, plus the Wendsels weigh about 45gr more, I figured it would correct most of it. Ideally, I could have a slightly longer shaft, but since I have none around, and not the funds to buy them yet, I will at least keep it all under consideration for later date.

The arrows are xx75 2018’s, and I couldn’t find my tape measure, for some reason, but at this point length is irrelevant, since I can’t buy any just yet.

I also corrected another problem I am not sure I mentioned. The string was a 16 strand with thick serving and my arrows had to really snap hard, onto the string. I feel this caused some of the inconsistencies, I know it made the bow excessively loud.

The string is now 14 strand, with thinner serving and the arrows snap on perfectly.

I have been adjusting the brace height, nock point, and checking arrow flight, all at the same time. When I can get some longer 2018’s I’ll recheck everything.

Currently brace height is 8 1/4″ and it may go to 8 1/2 before I am done. The bow is shooting quieter, and I am already grouping more consistently.

Shooting at a 3″ dot, at 15yds, my groups went from 2 arrows 2-3″ above the dot, and 2 arrows 2-3″ below the dot, to 2 arrows nearly touching ,inside the dot, and a third arrow about 2-3 inches left of the other two. Not perfect, but MUCH improved. These groups are all with the Wendsel’s installed.

I haven’t video’d myself yet, taking graf’s advice on the arrows has helped. Funny how it’s often things I know, but either forgot or thought it might not be the issue I need to address. I will video myself next to see what i am doing wrong, and maybe find a way to post it for ya’all to view, and laugh at.:lol:.

[handirifle]

in reply to: Shooting form question #27097

Good feedback, and thanks. This bow has been hard to tune with ANY arrow. I am looking up methods to make an endless loop string and will make one for this bow. One of it’s issues is the string is 16 strand and thick serving. This is too much string for the bow, and that on top of the thick serving make the nocks too tight. I also want to l=make it a slight bit longer, so I can tune the brace height for the quietest and smoothest shot.

That I know is PART of the problem, but a video may show the other part (ME). Once I make sure my form stays consistent then I’ll try to bare shaft tune. I have a limited supply of arrows, as far as sizes go, and archery shops are not real well stocked around here. The best flight I have seen from this bow so far, is with the current setup. Weight is well FOC, but haven’t measured that to know exactly how much.

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in reply to: FastFlight Strings #26395

Fastflight strings came about because they are stronger and stretch less. Because of this it was recommended to use less strands to add arrow speed. The arrow speed comes from faster return and snappier return of a lighter string, thus it exerts more force on the arrow shaft, often requiring a stiffer arrow spine than dacron strings. This could be the cause of the noticed erratic arrow flight.

I have used fastflight for years but i feel it has more drawbacks than advantages, for me. Dacron is quieter and easier on the bow. My recurve now sports a dacron string.

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