[David Petersen]

in reply to: Intentional Shoulder Shot #12955

SlowBowInMO wrote: If a deer had no bones at all, the best shot is still not in the shoulder blade area. I’m all for tuning a set up for maximum penetration, but I can’t for the life of me see a good reason to intentionally shoot a deer in the shoulder regardless of the set up.

Lots of truth and good points in what many are saying here, but the above from SloMo pretty much sums up my own views in the fewest words. As posted elsewhere, on this year’s bull elk one of the test shots I took on the just-dead animal was a 45-degee shoulder shot from 15 yards. Ashby-designed arrow (680 grains total, single-bevel head, 26+ percent FoC) blew a big hole in the scapula and penetrated 18″. 55# bow. This and other tests of my own and other hunters I’ve heard from, plus Ashby’s research, says that yes, with a good solid Ashby arrow setup and a bow not too weak or slow, you most likely can get good penetration on a deer shoulder (I know nothing about the penetration dynamics of steep-down treestand shots). Yet, that physical fact is not ethical license to purposely do it, because as SloMo and others have pointed out (I really love J.’s “moving” deer anatomy diagram), it’s not a high-odds shot, so why take it? That shot –highest odds — will consistently be level with the game, broadside, low behind front leg. We should stop occassionally to recall Ashby’s bottom-line motivation in doing this work (and it’s the same motivation that inspires me and most other “Ashby disciples”: NOT to allow us to take low-odds shots and get away with it, but rather to supply solid insurance when “good” shots go bad, increasing odds for fast humane kills and prompt game recovery. Thus, to me, this knowledge allows me to aim a bit farther forward, right over the heart, doing my best not to hit bone but knowing that if I do, I have a setup that will handle it. Insurance, pure and simple, as I believe Steve Sr. is also saying. Good discussion, amigos! Dave

[David Petersen]

in reply to: Public, Private or both? #63004

Steve, this “choice” is most often, I’d guess, a matter of what’s available where we live and hunt. Throughout much of the Midwest and East, it’s private land or nothing. Throughout much of the West, it’s public land or nothing, unless you can afford to pay to play on private land. I too am blessed with access to both, but I pay dearly for the public by sacrificing all promising career/income opportunities to live where I do, and I pay dearly for limited private access by acting as caretaker for several adjacent absentee owners year-round (running off a growing onslaught of trespassers( in return for hunting September alone. Here in the West, private land is often the best easy-access big game hunting, esp. for trophy animals, because it has fewer hunters and a growing body of research shows that massive early season public land hunter numbers — archery and black powder — combined with excessive use of ATVs, drives elk and other big game off public lands and onto private, where they are relatively safe because the average Dave or Steve can’t hunt there. And so here we are again (or “here he goes again”) when it comes to public lands hunting: there are too many of us out there, and too many of us have far too big “footprints” by running around on ATVs and in the case of elk blowing on bugles as if they were the Piper’s pipe. Time is coming soon — and already has in parts of many western states — where there can either be lots of hunters and all the motors we want, but very short and low-success seasons … or fewer of us with no motors (beyond “system” roads) and long seasons with high success, as in large parts of Idaho. CO does almost everything wrong regarding big game seasons. So far, the “bull market” CO big game “Wallstreet” hasn’t crashed. But if they/we continue offering unlimited tags and no meaningful restrictions on ATVs, it WILL happen and to those of us who live here and pay close year to year attention, it already is.

Sorry to wander off topic, Sr. but your question was rather open-ended! 😛 Cheers, dave

[David Petersen]

in reply to: Backpacks #62595

Michael — the joke (on me) is that it’s two packs, total in this case maybe 70 pounds, the only way I’ve found to make it work for a backpack camp/hunt. I load my regular backpack (it’s an old Peak I in the pic, with Kevlar frame), then hang my dayhunting pack on top of that load. That way I can hunt with a hunting day pack. If I am lucky enough to need to pack out meat, the empty Peak bag smashes down flat against the frame (would be same with aluminum frame)or I can take it off. There’s a slight flare toward the bottom of the Peak I that serves as a bit of a shelf. I always carry big game bags to make that chore neater. My othr rig is an even older alum frame meat pack with a folding shelf at bottom. It too has a detachable pack bag. That was my intended joke — you don’t have to compromise with one pack that does neither job well — just hang your hunting pack on top your camping back. dp

[David Petersen]

in reply to: For those of you that hunt with wood arrows #61977

Butchmo — first, what’s wrong with your dog’s front teeth? 😆

Bottom line, as a 50-year woody shooter, I agree with you! Unfortunately, “well spined wood arrows” are getting harder and harder to find new, and even harder to find yet after they’ve been “shot in” for a while. Truth is, for all their many lovable advantages to the spirit of the true traditional archer and bowhunter, woodies are natural and thus can never be as consistent in spine and shaft weight as synthetics. We can overcome that by buying and shooting and sorting lots of shafts. Sadly, not all shooters are financially or otherwise able to pull that off. And there is a huge difference between the “rocket science” you wisely left behind when you dropped training wheels in favor of trad gear, and what Doc Ashby has shown through 3 decades of careful field studies. The wheelie crowd’s rocket science is “shoot farther, faster, more accurately.” Ashby rocket science is “increase your kill and recovery rate,” yet, in tune with the whole trad worldview, requires getting closer rather than shooting farther. Bottom line, while the compound arrow-launching-device science doesn’t give a hoot about the animal 70 yards downrange, Ashby science’s entire motivation derives from caring everything about the animal 20 yards or less downrange. So it is that for me, rather than saying “Woodies only and foreover,” or saying “If I can get higher FoC thus better penetration and more accuracy with synthetic shafts, maybe I don’t like it but I’ll do it” … I’m a fence-straddler desperate for a 25% EFocC woody that’s consistent in spine and shaft. We can do it if we have the determination. That’s IMHO. Cheers, dave

[David Petersen]

in reply to: Hunting camp set-ups #60645

Bear — here’s a pic of my 12×12 pyramid with detachable porch awning. dave

[David Petersen]

in reply to: The "older" Bowhunter #60636

Coincidentally I just posted this pic on the “backpack” thread and it looks like it belongs here as well:

I am 63 (pic was taken two months ago at 11,200′) and a lifelong light smoker, drink some and eat way too much chocolate ice cream (of all my favorite habits that’s the one most likely to kill me :wink:). I have spinal arthritis and knee and shoulder injuries from earlier wild times. But have been blessed with staying thin and fit. My “secrets” to dealing with aging are (1) a phrophylactic dose of 2-3 advil when I have a hard physical day ahead, (2) walk less, sit and watch more, (3) if you plan to pack out your meat on your back, which I still do with elk, only hunt uphill (so you can pack out downhill), and (4) “Use it or lose it.” That is, embrace the pain as a friend. There are limits on the latter of course, but you’d be surprised what you can do with a determined frame of mind. The most painful aspects of hunting for me are lost sleep and deep cold, especially wind. “dave2old” (Snuffornot: My wife also just passed 10 years cancer clean after a death sentence from multiple docs, so we know the joy!)

[David Petersen]

in reply to: Backpacks #60629

You don’t have to decide between a good hunting pack and a good backpack. Nor do you have to compromise with one that’s neither. Just keep piling it on! 😛 Load heavy stuff near bottom and back. This is 11,200′ alpine muley hunt, CO. “Use it or lose it!” dave2old 😯

[David Petersen]

in reply to: Hickory Self Bows #59653

I didn’t know such a thing as America bamboo existed! But then, when I lived in NC it was in the mountains, so what do I know anyhow. Are the walls thick enough that you can cut flat lams that are wide enough? dave

[David Petersen]

in reply to: Some Assembly Required #59648

Hey ‘nut — man I can’t believe how big those bandsaw blade teeth are for cutting lams! Your saw must have a rotary engine and spin faster than a P51! I envy your skills if not your bandsaw blade. 😆 dave

[David Petersen]

in reply to: Hunting camp set-ups #59636

Bear — http://www.cowboycamp.net/cowboy_range.htm should take you right to it. Failing that, it’s David Ellis Tents and Canvas Products in Durango, CO. Go to “cowboy tents” and “range tents” from there. I paid a bit extra for a stove flap, fireproofing and sunproofing, and I bought a door fly from another place, so I’m into it total for a bit over a grand. But at my age it will easily outlast me! I’m not claiming this is the best tent/maker for the best money, but only that I am delighted with both quality and service, and all the experienced outfitters around here use only Ellis canvas products. I know you can get very similar pyramid tents elsewhere for less, but they don’t have floors. And for some folks and some uses that’s good. If I had it to do again I would not buy the take-down steel poles, but rather cut two tipi poles and save weight and money. But then, I can load the poles in the tent bag and toss into the back of my truck, while I’d have to strap tipi poles to the roof. First time I had it out, I was in nonstop extreme wind for days on end and she hardly even flapped — a product in part at least due to the sewn-in floor which, when you stake out the tent and raise the poles, helps tighten up the whole works. I could live in this tent and probably would if not for my warm wife! dave

[David Petersen]

in reply to: Greed…the difference between rifle and bow hunters #59595

If I had to pay for a lease to hunt, and worse yet share it with strangers … I wouldn’t. Much better to save the money for a real hunting adventure, if only once week a year, on big wild public lands somewhere in the West, where if you’re willing to walk a ways you can hunt forever and rarely encounter another hunter (so long as you get as far as possible away from ATV trails, which are magnets to the easy-access crowds). And I’ve never hunted in a state where rifle and archery deer seasons overlap and didn’t know it existed anywhere. Shucks, and industry wants us to believe we desperately need more hunters? Not where I hunt!:twisted: dave

[David Petersen]

in reply to: Hunting camp set-ups #59583

After sleeping in canvas wall tents as a Boyscout and later as a Marine, I’ve wanted one ever since. But they are expensive, very heavy and bulky and almost impossible for one man to set up, and I mostly camp and hunt alone. I also like tipi’s, but all those poles and again, the need for help in setting up, put me off. So I compromised on a pyramid tent, which is basically a square canvas tipi with just two external poles (or a high tree limb). Mine is 12x12x9′ high with a sewn-in waterproof floor, weighs 80 pounds and I can set it up or take it down alone in 10 minutes. Much cheaper than a wall tent or tipi. Mine has a small Cylinder woodstove and is oh so luxurious for a lifelong backpacker. I had mine set up all summer here at the shack, through some hellacious rain, wind and hail storms, and it leaked not a drop. Really enjoyed living in it for 11 days last winter in AZ for a desert whitetail hunt and can’t wait to do it again this year. One man’s solution. I don’t have pics loaded on “thunderbucket” but you can see a few here on the “camp scene” photo forum. There’s something about the smell and feel of a canvas tent that sings “wilderness! adventure! home sweet home!” dave

[David Petersen]

in reply to: God's Dog… #57365

Seems like maybe Todd’s balanced response is a good note on which to wind this one down? Thanks for all the coolness on a potentially hot topic, which, like most hot topics, is neither black nor white but various shades of gray, depending in this case largely on where we live. Happy Veteran’s Day, if “happy” is an appropriate word. dave

[David Petersen]

in reply to: ask the experts #53589

M — Grizzly is a top of the line head but currently available in right-hand only, so shouldn’t be used (for maximum penetration) with the left-twist feathers most folks shoot. This year I tested ABS Ashby, Abowyer Brown Bear (about half the price of the ABS) and Tusker Concord (most economical) heads and all gave excellent flight, great bone and tissue penetration in elk (killed with the BB and tested the others in the dead animal) with no damage to any of them. All are very hard steel with good MA. We keep waiting for the new improved Grizzly and STOS heads … and waiting. For the money right now I can highly recommend the Tusker. One guy’s opinion, dave

[David Petersen]

in reply to: 4 wheelers, Dave Peterson #53569

SDMFer — The cover painting for Man Made of Elk is an original oil by Thomas Aquinas Daly, which he painted expressly for that purpose after reading the draft manuscript. Quite an honor to have my favorite living painter do a “commission” work, for free to boot. It quickly sold to a collector for $7,000 and there are no prints, so you’d have to tear the cover off a book, cut out the lower portion with the title etc. and frame it. Tom came out and hunted with me one year, as you know from the book. That’s the second book he’s provided a cover for. The first is Writing Naturally and I have the original watercolor, most valuable and prized thing I own. Anyone who wants to see more of Daly, go to thomasaquinasdaly.com. He’s always been a landscape painter but recently has turned to wildlife, a couple of which have graced the covers of TBM in the past couple of years, and one of which will cover my revised and expanded Racks, if I ever get around to doing it. Thanks for your kind words, dave

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