[Str8arrow]

in reply to: Shoulder Shots 2 #41900

David Petersen wrote: And hey, I’m no longer even sure what we’re “arguing about” here! :lol::wink: Of course, we aren’t. dave

I don’t look at this as arguing about anything. It’s more like mulling over all the possible variations of a bow set-up. Noting the advantages and disadvantages of each and then intelligently selecting what each thinks will work best in our own situations.

I don’t worry about anyone here going out ill-prepared to do the job and I don’t think I need to be worried about either. My success rate is very high. I love to hear about what other hunters think is important and put a lot of thought into deciding whether it makes good sense to me. I’ve learned a ton from Ed’s studies and look forward to learning even more from all the experience on this forum.

[Str8arrow]

in reply to: Shoulder Shots 2 #40659

Dr. Ed Ashby wrote: Just to keep anyone from misunderstanding, I’m in the “there’s no such thing as too much penetration” camp when it comes to bowhunting. You should use ALL THE BOW WEIGHT YOU CAN HANDLE (and the best arrow setup you can possibly develop for your hunting needs), and ‘handle’ is the operative word.

Maybe this is the sticky area that is bugging me. I can draw a 70 lb trad bow, no doubt. I shoot a lot and my muscles are in fairly good shape. However, I can not shoot it anywhere near as well as a 55 lb bow. There is a trade off for most people. Draw weight vs accuracy. Now, some are so strong, it really doesn’t matter. They can handle their 70 lb bow as easily as I could a 35 lb bow. There may even be some guys who shoot more accurately with a higher draw weight bow, but I would bet a lot of money that most do not fall into that category.

My brother owns an archery shop, and I’m there a lot. We’re always helping guys with their shooting and giving instruction. We get a lot of guys into trad equipment because that is what we like. There are a lot of big powerful guys we’ve dealt with that can easily shoot a 70 lb bow, but I haven’t seen one yet, that couldn’t shoot a 45 lb bow better – even after 5 years of regular shooting. It’s not that such people don’t exist, it’s just that they aren’t common.

So, for me the issue is one of accuracy vs draw weight. There is a trade off for most. With the new info you have given us on arrow lethality, it seems that a 45 lb bow is now even more capable that ever. Especially when you consider the limbs that can be built today. I would bet there are some newer 45 lb limbs that easily out shoot some 55-60 lb limbs of yesteryear. In fact, I recently “warfed” a bow with new carbon ILF limbs – it’s incredible. Combine this bow with a “lethal” arrow and I would bet it would outperform most 70 lb setups from prior eras. It shoots the same arrow faster than my 55 lb bear recurve from the 60’s.

At this point, the biggest thing I hunt is elk. I would never go in with less than I thought would do the job. However, once I reach that point, I’m not going in with anything more if it affects my accuracy to any significance.

[Str8arrow]

in reply to: Shoulder Shots 2 #39250

Kingwouldbe wrote:

With a good arm you might be able to through the arrow faster than a 35lb bow.:shock:

Speed, speed, speed, that’s all I ever hear these days. lol:wink:

[Str8arrow]

in reply to: Enough for Elk?????? #39241

David Petersen wrote: Steve — I don’t believe anyone here is arguing that we should overbow ourselves.

Yes, I realize that. I usually prefer hunters using a bow they are most comfortable with, as long as the set-up is effective. I think it really boils down to just how much accuracy is lost on the higher draw weight bow. If it’s only a little bit, then sure, go with that one.

[Str8arrow]

in reply to: Shoulder Shots 2 #38364

Regulating arrow weight is a good thing in my opinion, but I doubt it will ever happen to a meaningful degree here in the states. I once got into an online discussion on a bowhunting site about trying to get state game departments to institute a 400 gr minimum. You should have heard the uproar. There was about 4 or 5 of us against the rest of the board. Pretty much everyone thought it was a terrible idea. How dare we tell them they can’t use a 380 grain arrow when they killed 50 deer with an arrow of that weight or less! Imagine what they’d have said if dared mention a 650 grain minimum!

So, although I know that a 650+ gr arrow is good and that a 35 lb bow can probably reliably kill an elk if you’re using the right arrow, I also realize that most people using a 35 lb bow, won’t be anywhere near a 650 gr arrow. Even state game officials are completely ignorant of what it takes to make a lethal bow and arrow set-up, so getting a game law changed in this direction is probably little more than wishful thinking.

[Str8arrow]

in reply to: Shoulder Shots 2 #38269

Kingwouldbe wrote:
I don’t think anyone will shoot a 650 grain arrow out of 35lb bow 😯 they would truly only have a 5 yard shooting capability.

I’m shooting in a winter indoor league right now and I’m using a 650 gr arrow (325 gr tip weight) out of a 45 lb recurve. It’s quite adequate inside of 30 yards. I know that dropping 10 lbs draw weight would reduce the distance I’d feel comfortable at, but I would guess that it would be well past 5 yards. With approximately 25% less draw weight, would I lose more than 25% of my effective range? It would seem to me that it would have to be at least 15-20 yards.

Maybe Ed can give us some insight on the effective range of the 700+ gr arrows out of the 40 lb bow. I would guess that would be comparable.

[Str8arrow]

in reply to: Center Shot ain't always good! #37967

When I tune a compound, I bareshaft just like my trad bows. I think one reason I find it easier is that I adjust draw weight instead of tip weight or arrow length to tweak it just right. It’s really quick to do it that way. The other thing I found I had to do was spine tune the arrow. I built a spine tester because I found carbons to have a very inconsistent spine from arrow to arrow. I would mark the stiff side of each arrow and then cull out those that varied more than .01 from each other. I really got great flight that way.

[Str8arrow]

in reply to: Center Shot ain't always good! #37386

Ed, I think I understand what you are saying, but I’m a bit confused by my experinece. I’ve always found compounds very easy to tune due to (I think) the spine forgiveness built into a centershot bow. Or, maybe it’s just the consistent release from a mechanical release. When tuning my traditional bows, it always seems I’ve got to fiddle with my tip weight and arrow length to get the best flight. Or, are you only referring to the arrow recovery speed from paradox?

[Str8arrow]

in reply to: Enough for Elk?????? #36911

I’m going to take the other side of the fence in this issue. I’ve taken several elk with bows between 43 and 50 lb draw weight. I think that it is more than enough if you know how to build a lethal arrow and are willing to limit your shots to those you believe you can make. I would say shoot the bow you are more accurate and confident in vs a heavier draw that may make you miss more easily. When elk hunting I’ve been disappointed in my aim on occasion, but I’ve never wished I’d had more draw weight after the hunt.

If you follow the general guidelines of using a minimum arrow weight of 650 gr., an EFOC weighted arrow and single bevel broadheads, I think it’s a lethal set-up on elk. When I shot mine, it was before I learned about the arrow lethality studies. They were very heavy, but did not have extreme FOC or single bevel broadheads, yet I was able to still have pass-throughs. With what I know today, I would have no doubt about it’s ability to reliably take down any elk on a decent shot. I currently shoot 55-60 lb bows, but only because that is what I’m comfortable with at this time.

[Str8arrow]

in reply to: Shoulder Shots 2 #34475

King, those hog schematics are great. I’ve never been hog hunting (they don’t roam in my neck of the woods), but have considered going on one out of state. Without studying those first, I’d have likely blown it. The lower part of the body has no vitals!

[Str8arrow]

in reply to: Time to increase EFOC #34463

Dr. Ed Ashby wrote: Chris, you MIGHT want to consider trying your current shafts with a built-out (thicker) arrow plate (and more tip weight). The farther your arrow is from center shot the weaker the dynamic spine your arrow needs to be. As you work with higher and higher amounts of arrow FOC the degree of a bow’s center shot becomes a big tuning factor.

That’s a great idea, one that hadn’t occurred to me. I was under the impression that center shot gave a bit more flexibility in form errors, but I’m not really sure how much a difference it makes once you move away from center shot.

[Str8arrow]

in reply to: Time to increase EFOC #34290

Assuming your arrow is correctly spined for your set-up, I don’t know how you will be able to turn it into an EFOC arrow. If you have room, you can shorten them to get a bit more stiffness, but I doubt it will help enough.

Experiment with one to be sure, but if it were me, I’d sell them and reinvest the money into a sustantially stiffer arrow that can handle a lot of weight up front. That is, is you really want to see what the higher FOCs will do for you. I also think you should strive to hit that 650 gr bone-breaking threshold. On your arrow, you’d have to get over 400 gr up front, and I can’t imagine that you will be able to.

[Str8arrow]

in reply to: Shoulder Shots 2 #34281

Ed, your illustrations really show why in the past I’ve always paid particular attention to where the near-side front leg is positioned – always trying to wait until it is in the forward position. However, as we all know, this leg moves and sometimes to the rear as we shoot, which is why I’ve been so thankful for the knowledge your studies have given me. I am now able to be better prepared for the unexpected.

I can only assume that those trying to avoid the shoulder are purposely trying to hit them in the body-center and disembowel them. However, even if that was my purpose, I don’t know why I’d want to do it with a light weight, low FOC arrow.

[Str8arrow]

in reply to: Shoulder Shots 2 #33008

Sapcut wrote: They immediately become defensive, which usually means guilt, and twist it around to say nothing.

I always hear them say to learn to take better shots. Their recommendation are, among others, don’t shoot beyond a certain range, make sure it’s a quartering away shot, be sure the animal is relaxed, not moving and not near a feeder. I say that is fine for those who have great self control and are aware of all these situations, but most novice and occasional hunters don’t consider this stuff like we do. What is best in their hands, when poor hits are the norm, not the exception?

It seems to me that regulations forcing them to use minimum arrow weights that are much higher, would solve a lot of problems. Current regulations don’t even touch on FOC and probably never will since most people won’t have a clue how to determine it. However, it would help if this research could somehow make it into the bowhunter safety classes. I also believe the “need” for speed is so appealing that it would take regulation to make a difference on arrow weight. Now the huge problem – compound shooters rule the bowhunting groups who would lobby for this and they will certainly not support a weight that would truly make a difference. They are overwhelmingly convinced that KE is the important figure and faster and faster arrows are their only goal.

[Str8arrow]

in reply to: Shoulder Shots 2 #32339

Dr. Ed Ashby wrote:
I’ve got several photos of buffalo test shots with low mass arrows and poor broadheads shot from heavy compounds generating just shy of 95 foot-pounds of KE. After they hit and failed to even stick in the rib, the arrows are hanging down like a picador’s lance; held in only by the on-side skin.

Back then, I didn’t know much about the “hows and whys” of what it took to kill big game. I just knew that I never doubted that my setup would kill large elk. I knew how easily it sent an arrow through a whitetail and figured the elk didn’t have much chance. It wasn’t until I broke my recurve and decided to give a compound a try, that I started doubting my bow set-up. I got caught up in the speed craze and started shooting lighter arrows out of a 70 lb compound. All of a sudden I had arrows that would not pass through on a medium size whitetail. Yet, when I got a new recurve, the arrows, once again, worked like I expected. They were heavier more by accident than anything. It was what I could get flying well, so it’s what I went with.

It wasn’t until I read your first published study on arrow lethality that my eyes were opened. It hit me almost instantly why my light draw weight recurves were out performing my high KE compounds. Since then, it’s been a steady learning experience – as steady as the frequency of the publishing of your new studies. 😉

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