[OpenSky1]

in reply to: 25 Degree angle of cut? #52932

All good feedback. Thank you. The question still remains if a 30 degree angle, which I am suggesting since use of KME or similar product would not require grinding of ferrule, shows a measurable loss of penetration vs. a 25 degree angle, or other.

I have done extensive research, and observed many guys just use a freehand technique, and looking at their vids, BH’s are extremenly sharp. My concern over freehanding is the subject interwoven in this chat about durability to the angle. If 5 or 10 degrees in angle is not relevant to penetration, assuming both are equally sharp, than freehanding is an acceptable option in my opinion. If 25 shows a marked change than 30 in penetration, then to freehand is a bit more risky, especially for a less experienced sharpener as myself. Don’t get me wrong, I am a skilled tradesman, but I know for a fact that an inexperienced sharpener like me can replicate an angle spot on with a KME jig, with far greater accuracy to angle of cut than the most experienced sharpener using a freehand technique can. And to be completely honest, to date my BH are no where near as sharp with me using a jig, as those freehanding on vids. I have seen.(They are sharp but not shaving completely clean! I was of the former understanding this was good enough. Reading Ashby’s studies I now see differently. I am doing my best to improve on this skill).

Again appreciate all input. Fred Bear and archery forerunners have successfully taken game. We need not complicate the issue. [u]The purpose of my post, is I am inclined to put all odds in my favor.[/u] Had overheard 3 fellow hunters chatting at another archery shop here in SW Wisconsin about the recent archery deer season, and all 3 have hit multiple game this year without recovery. 1 of these hunters was the shop owner! The problem was a lack of ethics by no remorse expressed(quite the opposite)to a failure to their system. Ashby studies show an alarming frequency to this problem, and much is preventable. So I am just gathering info. to help better myself and then be able to provide knowledgeable info. to those I come in contact with.

Without having the unique circumstance to test on the large quantity of game Ashby was presented with, the average Joe like myself is unable to answer the question I posted about why 25 degrees is ‘best’. Hence my reaching out to a national audience.

In the meantime I will apply the great source of knowledge already verified to better my odds of ethically harvesting game. Hope you all do the same. Good hunting.

[OpenSky1]

in reply to: 25 Degree angle of cut? #46482

Wish I had your skills using these forums to better respond to all. Thanks to you both for the replies. I did not see any video/link attached to the reply by Smithhammer? I understand the concepts you mentioned. Handrifle, are the BH’s you are using a 3:1 ratio and you have clearance at 26 degrees? Mfr? I would like to continue to use the KME instead of all the freehanding many choose to do. I am a skilled tradesman and there is a big difference between freehand and the result obtained from a jig. That KME puts the angle spot on. Problem was the Outback Supreme Single Bevel was cut at factory to 32 degrees. I had to cut ferrule down drastically to obtain 25 degrees stated using the KME, which was how my question of WHY IS 25 DEGREES ‘BEST’ started. Is there any evidence that an equally sharp 30 degree angle of cut on same BH would penetrate any better/worse?

I have been in personal contact with Ron from KME(awesome customer service, willing to do anything to help), and his was the personal testimony referred to. It was his tutorial that suggested grinding the ferrule and also mentioned was that a few degrees of angle or a lot makes no difference to sharpness. Ashby studies give cause for concern to not compromise integrity/strength,(so I shouldn’t grind a ferrule to nothing, which is about what I had to do to achieve 25 degrees on the Outback Supreme if using the KME) and that is why I do not want to grind the ferrule at all if not needed. In other words why 26 1/2 degrees instead of just raising the jig further to 29 or whatever other number you want to put in there.

I just am looking for evidence of studies, if any exist, that show a THRESHOLD to angle of cut where a BH penetrates best. I am assuming Mr. Ashby believes this to be 25 degrees. Still wondering why from evidence?

[OpenSky1]

in reply to: High FOC arrows and footings #46260

I have the same question/concern. I just finished reading Ashby’s 34 reports this past weekend, and this issue of STRUCTURAL ARROW INTEGRITY IS THE #1 PRIORITY according to Ashby: (Not FOC, not BH design, not arrow mass,…..).

Studies Ashby posted showed failure to arrow shaft upon bone impact(especially shots at high angle to game)where entended inserts ended in shaft, regardless of insert/outsert length. If my memory is correct this was as far back of BH as 4″, indicating your serving could go on forever. Outside of shaft causes friction however. Aluminum in BH/inserts was definitely a point of fail more so than steel. Carbon was not stated as the best shaft material, and compressed wood performed very well, but studies appeared to end in 2008. Not certain what is best shaft material today in 2012?

So, I have little to add with personal knowledge to your inquiry, but another voice in agreement to a need for a better knowledge base to draw from. To best improve shaft integrity with todays knowledge, make the decision to shoot as square on to quarry or with game slightly quartering, to best improve your odds of arrow integrity during penetration. Current testimony has complete passthrough even on Elephant!

Clever idea with the serving. Similar to when BH were tied on. Recommend to attmept to make the epoxy discussed fill the serving ridges to minimize resistence.

This said, I give a BIG THANK YOU to Mr. Ashby for all the time, effort, and personal money invested to improve the archery community. It is clear he contacted manufacturers repeatedly with requests to make products available to meet a specific need. Rather than “if we build it will they come?, perhaps the archery community needs to petition the Mfr as a united voice to how large a need exists for proven products.

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