[Ireland]

in reply to: Whitetail leg bone impact #28756

JasonJelinek wrote: One of my friends shared an experience with me. He was in a tree stand and had a good shot at a whitetail doe at a little little less than 20 yards. The deer was framed by 2 limbs, calm and stationary. He picked a spot on the chest and released the arrow. He watched as the arrow entered the rear leg (right in the ham) closest to him. The doe was down after moving about 10 feet. He then got down and put a finishing shot on the deer. My friend was disappointed with the shot as he is a good, consistent shooter in practice and is a good hunter. He did mention that the arrow may have clipped a twig but isn’t sure.

Upon further examination he noticed that the arrow had completely penetrated one leg, broken the upper leg bone on the other leg and the broadhead was pushing up against the skin. The tip on the broadhead was curled slightly, but could easily be filed down to a good sharpness. The leg bone wall thickness at the impact site was from 1/8″ to 3/16″.

The broadhead was a 150 grain Grizzly El Grande with 100 grain steel adapter, mounted on a carbon shaft with a 100 gr brass insert. He shoots the arrow at about 150-160 fps.

The first two pictures I’m holding the pieces of the bone together to show how the broadhead most likely looked as it entered the bone.
Entry

Exit

This is what the bone looked like after the shot (minus the skin and flesh).

It is amazing what an arrow can do.

Thank you for your time and efforts in posting the results. Very informative for all…

Ireland

[Ireland]

in reply to: Good news from the Doc! #22123

David Petersen wrote: I just spoke with Ed Ashby and he got his second knee replacement a few days ago and is out of the hospital, walking 200 yards at a whack, in high spirits and says he’s looking forward to finally getting back to hunting soon. All this chain of medical problems began with crippling back pain and now it appears that perhaps the two bum knees contributed to that. So, knees, back, heart and prostate all are looking good, weight is falling away as exercise become possible again and the future is bright for our favorite arrow lethality scientist. And I’ll bet we’ll be seeing more of the Doc here again to liven things up. Great news. Go get ’em, Ed! dave p

Great news David!!! Thanks for keeping us posted on his progress.

Best wishes for a full recovery Doc Ashby!!!!

Ireland

[Ireland]

in reply to: 40 pound draw weight for Deer #11594

Tom-Wisconsin wrote: ToddRvs

Thanks very much for your service to your country from another vet. I shoot a 40# at 28″ recurve. My draw is closer to 29 inches. Have rotator cuff problem. Here is my set up for what it’s worth.

GT expeditions hunters 3555
Spine 0.500
Straightness 0.600 +/-
30” cut to cut
30.75 inches BOP
7.4 gpi
222 grains
9 gr nock
6.9 gr fletching
100 gr brass inserts
125 gr steel adaptor
175 gr Abowyer Brown Bear single bevel
brass washer 5 gr
Balance pt 24.75 “
FOC 30.48%
645-650 gr total wt

Tom has provided an excellent example of great set-up!

Ireland

[Ireland]

in reply to: EFOC comparison #11117

sapcut wrote: I may be wrong here but I think the last couple of reports from Dr. Ashby suggested (based on real research, of course) that the 650+ gr arrow with 30+% FOC would penetrate as good as the heavy 800+ arrows with average FOC.

I don’t think that he has tested heavy 800+ gr. arrows with also having 30+% FOC. That has to be the most lethal. Having the best of both worlds of arrow lethality.

Please correct me if the above is not accurate.

Richie

Richie,

Well stated and exactly the same conclusions I drew from Dr. Ashby’s last two studies.
Ireland

[Ireland]

in reply to: Arrow confused #10683

dabersold wrote: Ireland – Please don’t take my comment about the absurd high price of the Ultimate EFOC arrow as an attack on your “Ashby inspired” set-up. I know there are cheaper ways to go, as you have posted. That comment was kind of a rabbit trail at the end of my post and another pet peeve I have about this subject. We need not kid ourselves, there are lots of people making tons of money on this and making claims that are not far from falsehoods. Alaska Bowhunting Supply is one of them and the one I was referring to. Add up the cost for a dozen Ashby single bevel broadheads and a dozen Grizzlysticks and there you have it. I’m not at all against private enterprise, but I am against price gouging and advertising that leads someone to believe they NEED to have this or you are somehow not going to be an effective hunter.
And, yes I know that the Ashby tests are not only about EFOC. Somehow that has taken the front seat, but just the fact that we now have a 12 step program to get what some would say is the only responsible arrow for hunting any kind of big game just furthers my point. If I were to hunt Africa’s big 5 I would be the first to jump in on this kind of set-up, but remember my argument is some think we need it for deer and bear sized game.
Again I want to say that I’m very thankfull, and believe that Dr. Ashby has done bowhunting a big favor by doing these tests. It is the the length that some have taken it to that I have a problem with.

dabersold,

No offence taken to your “rabbit tail”. I really appreciate your taking the time to clarify. Thank you for providing the information regarding ABS. With prices like those, I think I’ll be staying with my Grizzly and Abowyer broadheads for a long time…

The great thing about the field of bowhunting is we have literally hundreds of options to choose from. If there was just “one-way” to do it, we all would be shooting the same bow, same arrow, and same broadheads. It’s wonderful that we have forums like this to discuss the various options that are available to all of us. It’s impressive to see the level of passion and expertise that each of us bring to our posts. Thanks again for the great information you have provided to this discussion. Thats how we all grow and learn.

Good hunting,

Ireland

[Ireland]

in reply to: Arrow confused #9910

Bender wrote: Not saying that EFOC causes bad flight. Haven’t seen what Ashby uses. But it wouldn’t surprise me that he would use a reasonably sized fletch. He seems to know what he’s doing. What I am saying it that way too many have ignored basic principles of tuning in their efforts to achieve EFOC, and as a consequence wind up using huge fletch just so they have something that kinda sorta flys. It seems to happen most often with new folks with little or no experience in arrow construction. They read about somewhere like a website or forum and they take it that EFOC is the be all and end all of arrow construction. Its becoming a dominant mindset to the exclusion of the basics. I’m not saying that EFOC is “bad”. But the well tuned arrow put in the right spot will do far more for your penetration and kill ratio than any amount of EFOC ever will. Follow the basics, get some time and experience, and over time that experience will enable you to play around with stuff like EFOC and determine for yourself what does and does not work. There is no reason what so ever for new folks to be confused or worse yet be out there shooting crappy set ups.

Bender,

“Haven’t seen what Ashby uses”. Please read under the Ashby Lethality Forum: RE” What Broadhead Weight is Better” and the “Silent Arrow” posts. Dr. Ashby goes in detail in describing his feather recommendations. Not sure who is recommending the “huge fletch” you describe, but that recommendation is not coming from Dr. Ashby.

In the 2007 Study,Update 8, “Penetration Enhancing Factors”,
Dr.Ashby lists arrow flight as #2 when it comes to penetration. There are at least twelve other factors to consider (ie, MA, arrow mass, shaft-diameter, etc). As you correctly point out, some are possibly spending too much time on FOC,EFOC and Ultra-FOC and not looking at the entire
twelve pieces of the pie outlined in update 8.

You might want to read the 2007 Study, Update, Part 2, Misconceptions. Ashby provides research regarding putting “the well tuned arrow put in the right spot”

Ireland

[Ireland]

in reply to: Arrow confused #9905

Bender wrote: Not saying that EFOC causes bad flight. Haven’t seen what Ashby uses. But it wouldn’t surprise me that he would use a reasonably sized fletch. He seems to know what he’s doing. What I am saying it that way too many have ignored basic principles of tuning in their efforts to achieve EFOC, and as a consequence wind up using huge fletch just so they have something that kinda sorta flys. It seems to happen most often with new folks with little or no experience in arrow construction. They read about somewhere like a website or forum and they take it that EFOC is the be all and end all of arrow construction. Its becoming a dominant mindset to the exclusion of the basics. I’m not saying that EFOC is “bad”. But the well tuned arrow put in the right spot will do far more for your penetration and kill ratio than any amount of EFOC ever will. Follow the basics, get some time and experience, and over time that experience will enable you to play around with stuff like EFOC and determine for yourself what does and does not work. There is no reason what so ever for new folks to be confused or worse yet be out there shooting crappy set ups.

Bender,

“Haven’t seen what Ashby uses”. Please read under the Ashby Lethality Forum: RE” What Broadhead Weight is Better” and the “Silent Arrow” posts. Dr. Ashby goes in detail in describing his feather recommendations. Not sure who is recommending the “huge fletch” you describe, but that recommendation is not coming from Dr. Ashby.

In the 2007 Study,Update 8, “Penetration Enhancing Factors”,
Dr.Ashby list arrow flight as #2 when it comes to penetration. Lets not forget there are at least twelve other factors to consider (ie, MA, arrow mass, shaft-diameter, etc).

You might want to read the 2007 Study, Update, Part 2, Misconceptions. Ashby provide research regarding putting “the well tuned arrow put in the right spot”

Ireland

[Ireland]

in reply to: Arrow confused #9705

dabersold wrote: Ireland – I too try to follow Ahsby’s studies , to a point. Not that going from high FOC 15%-20% to EFOC wouldn’t give better penetration, the studies show it does, but for deer and bear my set up has proven to do the job for many, many years. Will my 15%-20% FOC set up bust every shoulder bone when I make a bad shot up front? Most likely not, given other possibilities like skip angle and such but, nor will your EFOC. There are already posts showing up that prove that. It isn’t a cure all for bad shots.
The problem with the so called wound rate studies, when dealing with this penetration subject, is that they don’t take into account only deer that were shot in the front shoulder and lost. I could be wrong, but I don’t think that a EFOC arrow is going to help much when you gut shoot your deer, or any other bad shot that doesn’t hit bone. So, as bad as it is to loose an animal, FOC or lack of it can’t really be used as a stand alone argument. If all animals only jumped backwards at the shot, or I only pulled my shots to the front, then yes, but that isn’t the case. Also, as bad as it is to loose an animal to a shoulder shot that doesn’t get in, I would guess that it has a very high rate of recovery compared to a gut shot. Again, EFOC or EEFOC is no guaranty you are going to recover the animal.
Let me be clear, I am for Dr. Ashby’s studies, but I think it has gotten to the point that all other ways are wrong, and that certainly is not the case. I think the good Dr. has even said something to that effect when dealing with deer sized game, and again, I know history has proven it.
On a side note, I just did some research on a certain web page that sells the “Ultimate” EFOC hunting set up with single bevel heads and all. Total cost for a dozen…$450. absolutely absurd!

Dabersold,

Please remember that an “Ashby inspired set-up” is not just EFOC. Lets not forget: #1 structural integrity, #2 arrow flight #4 MA #5 shaft-diameter to ferrule diameter #6 arrow mass etc, etc. All twelve plus factors all must be considered. It is not just about EFOC.

Not sure why someone would pay $450 for the “Ultimate” EFOC hunting set-up. Please send me a pm for that web page.

My “Ultimate” Ashby inspired set-up costs:
1. Six Grizzly El Grande broadheads $29.90
2. Brass Inserts $6.00 for six
3. Steel Apapters $4.13 for six
4. Half-dozen Gold Tip, Easton, or Carbon Express arrows
($50-$75 depending upon choice)
5. Feathers, glue, nocks $3.00

I heading to the woods for around $120.00.

Ireland

[Ireland]

in reply to: Arrow confused #8903

dabersold wrote: Red Beard – I could count all the big game I’ve killed with archery equipment on my fingers and toes, so like the other 99% of the people who post on these sites, I’m an “armchair expert”.
Here is what I do know from history.
1. Traditional bowmen have always seemed to favor a heavier tip weight than compounders(especially recently), and heavier arrows.
2. Arrows with an FOC of 10%-15% and around 10gr/lb of draw weight have been effectively and efficiently blowing thru big game since Pope and Young.
3. I have yet to read about any of the other big boys of traditional bowhunting dropping their proven arrow combinations to chase the “magical” EFOC.
So, with no disrespect towards Dr. Ashby or anyone who “chooses” to chase the EFOC, it seems to me that as long as you follow the long proven guidelines stated in #2 above, tune your bow/arrow combination for good arrow flight, use sharp broadheads, and pick your shots, then history has long proven you should be fine.
I have read Dr. Ashby’s studies and think they are valid and useful(many thanks for your dedication and allowing us to learn from them), but they are just ONE way, not the ONLY way to responsibly hunt big game. And, as valid as they may be, they are only one small part of the overall recovery of game animals. If you are ONLY looking to maximize your penetration then by all means go for it. But, as we have all seen, you don’t HAVE to shoot an EFOC arrow to get pass thru shots on game, or bust bone. Fred Eichler busted a shoulder bone of a moose, and recovered it, with his #54 bow and 500gr arrows with 125gr head.
I’m sure there are going to be those who disagree. That’s fine, but before you bash me, prove me (or I should say, prove history) wrong.
Respectfully Abner.

Abner,

We have compound bow shooters using 400 grain arrows and mechanical broadheads killing moose also. Vicki Cianciarulo of Hoyt archery shows us how to do on video. I know that I for one will stick with my present “Ashby inspired” set-up.
You do have history on your side Abner. I won’t disagree…
With a national wound rate of around 55% (19 studies), I’m personally going to do all I can to prepare for when “things go wrong”.

Ireland

[Ireland]

in reply to: Arrow confused #8885

Bender wrote: Its an informational overload isn’t it?
Ask those who know, what kills the animal is putting the arrow in the right place. Shot placement. How do we get that? Accuracy. Aside from our form and execution a big part of accuracy is having properly tuned bow and arrow combination. An FOC of 10% to 15% is fine, An arrow weight of approx. 10 grains arrow weight per pound of draw weight is fine. Deadly. Don’t hope it all works out just in an attempt to achieve this “magical” EFOC. Why is it that those I see who swear by EFOC also find it absolutely necessary to use to use huge 5″ and even now 6″ fletch? Might it be because their arrow flight is exceptionally bad? Might they have sacrificed tuning? I’m not saying this is true of everybody, but I see it way too much.
I have no idea where you guys are at in your knowledge but should you find it helpful here is a link to some very good info on tuning trad bows: http://bowmaker.net/tuning.htm
If you shoot wood or aluminum you should have no problem achieving a decent FOC and arrow weight. If you shoot carbon a little research may be in order because they may prove to be light. But carbons are also obviously perfectly “doable”.

Have you read the recent Ashby studies? Do you see the fletch he is now using? I believe he calls it A&A. It is not the huge 5″ or 6″ you quote. With a EFOC you will not need the large fletch because you have much better arrow flight.

Ireland

[Ireland]

in reply to: Appropriate discussion? #63633

Tom-Wisconsin wrote: Here is my arrow specs I have been working on for the whole summer. I am hunting tomorrow and I practiced tonight with my addition of 5 gr brass washer behind the bareshaft. I was a little stiff with spine but the addition of just the 5 gr washer made the arrow fly true with no deflection right or left. I think this will improve my penetration. I like fine tuning like this. I feel more confident. In the area I hunt I will not get a shot beyond 15 yards. It is very thick woods. The biggest clearing is 15 yards. I have a shoulder problem and my 40# bow is my limit this year. I feel I have maximized my set up for my circumstances. Thanks to every one on this sight for your wisdom.

GT expeditions hunters 3555
Spine 0.500
Straightness 0.600 +/-
30” cut to cut
30.75 inches BOP
7.4 gpi
222 grains
9 gr nock
6.9 gr fletching
100 gr brass inserts
125 steel adapter
Abowyer Brown Bear 175 gr
brass washer 5 gr
Balance pt 24.75 “
FOC 30.48%
645 gr total wt

Looks like an outstanding set-up Tom!!! Good hunting!!
Ireland

[Ireland]

in reply to: Appropriate discussion? #60461

BadShotDad wrote: The (sadly) funny thing is all the strange looks I get when I go to the range with my ‘full’ hunting setup!

Great advice Ireland.

Me too Tom. Maybe this year!

Thanks for all your kind comments guys. Actually there is not an “origional” thought in my entire post. Ninety-nine percent of my suggestions are taken directy from the writings of Dr. Ashby.

[Ireland]

in reply to: Appropriate discussion? #58429

Dr. Ed Ashby wrote: Here’s another post I found. It’s accompanied by a photo of an average size buck. I’ve condensed and consolidated the post a bit but the words are a direct quote.

this is obviously enough, however, I prefer an exit hole … shot this buck fifteen yards away … going up a slope … body position was close to what you might have with a straight down angle … only went forty yards … saw him stumble and drop … only pierced one lung. Maybe ten inches went in … week before I shot a larger buck … broadside … hit him behind the shoulder and above the elbow … As he ran off the arrow didn’t wiggle … maybe four inches went in … never found him … traveled one mile … followed the whole bloodtrail … never recovered the arrow or part of one … blood stopped … guess that the arrow slid down along a heavy rib … shooting a 62″ Martin Hatfield 55# … draw 28″… shafts are 2016s tipped with a 125gn Wensel Woodsman … shaft, minus the broadhead, is 31.25″.

[bold] Then he does ask the right question: [/bold]

Is there anything obvious to someone that my setup could be improved upon?

[bold] So far no one has given him any suggestions. It’s on a web site that I don’t post on, but I’m waiting to see if he ever gets any suggestions.

There’s obviously a problem with the penetration he’s getting from a 55# bow. What problems do YOU see with his setup and what suggestions would YOU make as to things he could do to improve his setup? [/bold]

Ed

After having several days of computer problems…The third time is hopefully the charm. Here goes…

Problems with his set-up:
1. According to the Easton Arrow Selection Chart, he should be shooting a 2219,2315, or a 2415 arrow. The 2016 arrow he is shooting is for a bow in the poundage range of 29-34 pounds. He can attempt to tune this set-up all day long but will never get good arrow flight. I personally would recommend he shoot the 2219 arrow if he stays with aluminum.
2. Structural integrity of the arrow is probably OK, but he is getting severe flexing and bending of the 2016 arrow shaft in flight and even more so upon impact. He is probably using an aluminum adapter and insert which could lead to increased risk of bending and potential structural failure.
3.Low FOC
4.Low MA
5.Low mass
6. His arrow is possibly an inch too long

Suggestions for to improve his setup:

1.Chose a quality carbon arrow of correct spine for his bow. Use brass insert and steel adapter for good structural integrity.
2. Tune, tune and tune again for best possible arrow flight
3. Chose a broadhead with a high MA such as my personal favorites (Grizzly El Grande or Abowyer Brown Bear)
4. Work to get FOC at 25% to 30% range
5. Overall mass weight of at least 650 grains.
6. Practice does not make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect. If you are hunting from a tree stand, practice shooting from a tree stand. Don’t find our during the shot that that bulky coat “got in the way”. Practice with your actual hunting clothes, including gloves, hat, coat and face-net. Simulate actual hunting conditions during practice.
7. Continue to shoot during the actual hunting season. I’m amazed at the guys who wound a deer in mid-Nov and haven’t picked up their bow (to practice) since early Oct.
8. Take only high percentage shots
9. Learn how to blood trail deer
10. Read the Ashby research again

Lets hear from some other guys. This is how we all learn.

A special thanks to Dr. Ashby for his tireless efforts in providing quality research.

Ireland

[Ireland]

in reply to: Appropriate discussion? #56365

Dr. Ed Ashby wrote: Here’s another post I found. It’s accompanied by a photo of an average size buck. I’ve condensed and consolidated the post a bit but the words are a direct quote.

this is obviously enough, however, I prefer an exit hole … shot this buck fifteen yards away … going up a slope … body position was close to what you might have with a straight down angle … only went forty yards … saw him stumble and drop … only pierced one lung. Maybe ten inches went in … week before I shot a larger buck … broadside … hit him behind the shoulder and above the elbow … As he ran off the arrow didn’t wiggle … maybe four inches went in … never found him … traveled one mile … followed the whole bloodtrail … never recovered the arrow or part of one … blood stopped … guess that the arrow slid down along a heavy rib … shooting a 62″ Martin Hatfield 55# … draw 28″… shafts are 2016s tipped with a 125gn Wensel Woodsman … shaft, minus the broadhead, is 31.25″.

[bold] Then he does ask the right question: [/bold]

Is there anything obvious to someone that my setup could be improved upon?

[bold] So far no one has given him any suggestions. It’s on a web site that I don’t post on, but I’m waiting to see if he ever gets any suggestions.

There’s obviously a problem with the penetration he’s getting from a 55# bow. What problems do YOU see with his setup and what suggestions would YOU make as to things he could do to improve his setup? [/bold]

Ed

Continued problems with my computer…sorry

Ireland

[Ireland]

in reply to: What Broadhead weight is better #54870

Dr. Ed Ashby wrote: Ireland, just as when bare shaft tuning, finding the minimum amount of A&A pattern fletching is a step by step process. Once you feel that you have the bare shaft tuned correctly, mount a matched-weight broadhead on one of the shafts. First use what you are absolutely certain is ample fletching to stabilize the broadhead and VERIFY that the fletched-shaft/broadhead has identical impact to the field-point tipped bare shaft. You can use any fletching pattern you like for this step.

Once your shaft tuning is verified switch to the A&A pattern on the broadhead tipped shaft, starting at about 5” length if you are using 3-fletch, or 4” if using 4-fletch. DO NOT add the turbulator yet. Shoot the arrow several times and check the flight stability. If all is well, begin to gradually decrease the length of the A&A fletchings until the point where you FIRST see a slight instability in the arrow’s flight. Be sure to shoot several shots before making a decision on the flight stability, and it helps if you can have another person also watching for flight instability too. Now add the turbulator and check to be sure the flight is again completely stable. If addition of the turbulator does not completely stabilize the arrow’s flight increase the fletching length by ¼” and check again, with the turbulator in place.

Many factors affect what the minimum A&A fletching that will work FOR YOU is. A big factor is quality of your release (mine’s poor). Other major factors are the type of broadhead (how much wind sheer it generates) and the amount of FOC on the arrow and the shaft’s length. Your draw length on whatever length shaft you are using is also a factor. At a given amount of FOC, the longer the shaft the less fletching required; because of the lengthened rear steering arm. Your draw length vs. shaft length affects the point of maximum shaft flex upon release.

This sounds like a lot of work, and it is, but it is a one time job for a given arrow setup. It’s analogous to a working up the very best handload for a rifle; and cheaper and easier to accomplish than finding the best rifle handload too!

Hope that is of some help,

Ed

Dr. Ashby,

Once again, thank you for your very clear and detailed approach to using the A&A fletching. I love the “step-by-step” details that anyone can follow. Can’t wait to give it a try…

Thanks again for all you do…

Ireland

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