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There seems to be a lot of articles being written about wolves and how they are damaging the elk herds. If the wolves have the upper hand in the struggle to survive I belive it is the fault of the humans. We removed the wolf from the western land scape for close to 100 years. How many generations of elk have lived and have not learned to dance with the wolf. Wolves did not eliminate the elk before we came. I hunt Northern Minnesota we have more wolves than anywhere in the lower 48. We also have a thriving whitetail deer population. If you want to shoot one of them with a bow thought you must remember that deer season in northern Minnesota is 365 days a year. The slow ones are gone. Only the strong survive. The hunting is not like you see on the videos. This is one reason people claim the deer population is down. These deer remember stands sites. My son started hunting 10 years ago he missed several shots from the same stand his first year. To this day when the deer walk that trail they stop 50 yards out and look at that tree. We have not had a stand in it for 7 years years now. This is a learned behavior. Just like evading the wolf is learned. The elk will relearn it and they will survive. They will also be even tougher to get with a bow. I agree with Aldo Leopold’s statement in A Sand County Almanac “I now suspect that just as a deer herd lives in mortal fear of its wolves, so does a mountain live in mortal fear of its deer. And perhaps with better cause, for while a buck pulled down by too many wolves can be replaced in two or three years, a range pulled down by to many deer may fail of replacement in as many decades”. If we give them the space the elk and the wolf will find their balance and we can also take part in the dance of life and death. If you want a guaranteed meat supply go to the butcher. If you want to take part in life go to the woods.
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More applause, Fallguy. This is also Backcountry Hunters and Anglers’ position on wolves: They are an important part of any whole and truly wild ecosystem, and just the knowledge of their lurking presence in a place, as with the grizzly bear, adds a strong flavor of adventure and realness to any so-called wilderness adventure. But there can be too much of any good thing and they must be managed. And hunters should have the lead role in that management. I’ll never forget the first time I heard wolves howl in the night, many years ago in a far corner of Glacier NP. It was the Magic Pack, and I few years later I got to watch them all morning as they returned from various directions and individual night hunts to bed down at the edge of a meadow. Best part was when a young whitetail buck wandered into the meadow to feed. He was completely surrounded by wolves and didn’t know it, and they simply watched with curiosity and yawns. Must have enjoyed a good meal reacently. These a “memories of a lifetime.” dp
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Thanks for the kind words all. I do think that there can be responsible management. But the tone words being used to describe wolf management sound more like they need to be shot on site if they are anywhere people and pets are. From what I have read Montana and Idaho have proposed reasonable plans Wyoming’s on the other hand is more on the order of “No wolves No problem”. Please do not miss understand, there needs to be a balance and we humans have upset the balance with our altering of the landscape. Also Dave have been a member of Back Country Hunter and Anglers for a couple of years now, I believe it is one of a very few groups out there thats membership is made up of “conservationist/sportsman” in the model of Teddy Roosevelt
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Fallguy wrote: If you want a guaranteed meat supply go to the butcher. If you want to take part in life go to the woods.
Yup. I never cease to be amazed at people who desire nothing more than to see wilderness managed as an unbalanced, pseudo-wild game farm for self-serving interests.
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I’d like to see the Wolf managed like all other game animals. And, I agree with David here that their presence on the scene as a high order predator should be encouraged. But a healthy population does not mean that we should worship the Wolf. Competing interests have gotten in the way of looking at this from a reasonable point of view. Cattlemen want their livestock protected, and environmentalists want their animal-gods preserved.
Let’s get some balance, and take activist judges, nutty Eco folks, and over zealous trophy seekers out of the equation in favor of balanced scientists who also understand the need to manage predator populations through hunting.
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gmccloskey wrote:
Let’s get some balance, and take activist judges, nutty Eco folks, and over zealous trophy seekers out of the equation in favor of balanced scientists who also understand the need to manage predator populations through hunting.I agree. But there’s another group that needs to be addressed as well. Let’s also bring the undue amount of influence that the livestock industry has over this issue down a few notches. In my opinion, if you are grazing on private land, you have a right to protect your herd however you want (within reason, of course). But if you are grazing on public land – our land – and typically doing so for a price/acre that was set sometime around 1940, then I’m sorry, but you don’t have a right to eradicating all predators from that land. You’re getting a very cheap deal, and using land that belongs to all of us – not just you, and some predation is a part of that deal that you’re just going to have to put up with.
Thinking that you can graze on public land, and eradicate all predators from it just to protect your singular interest, is just as extreme and unreasonable of a position as the opposite side of the spectrum that believes all wolves should be untouchable.
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Well Done, Fallguy! Like Dave I am also feel akin to predators. But, also agree the Wolf and Grizzly and the Elk and all creatures great and small have there place. Omit one, and the whole system suffers from imbalance.
That said.. I also agree in sound wildlife management – that includes predators. It is just not within me to shoot them.
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I don’t post much but the way this topic is being discussed is the reason it is my favorite online site. Reasonable, respectful adults providing thoughtful information, knowledge and opinions beyond my own. Kudos to all you gentlemen.
And why yes, I WOULD hunt a wolf if I had a tag, just like elk, deer, bear, moose, pig, quail, grouse, rabbits, etc……..
Carry on good sirs,
Craig
PS
LOVE TBM!!! -
Just a further thought on this issue, as I get halfway through a pint this eve and my mind wanders to the bigger picture:
One of the biggest arguments I hear from many in the sporting crowd is that wolves are ‘decimating’ game herds, and that’s why their numbers need to be culled. I’m not going to debate that point, as it rarely seems to go anywhere – people’s minds tend to be firmly made up on that one way or the other.
But what I will say is that outright loss of habitat due to development has done more to reduce game herds than all the wolf predation of the last decade combined, a thousand times over.
I would love to see every sportsman arguing for wolf ‘management’ on these grounds to also be a staunch advocate for habitat protection and limits placed on development/urbanization. If you’re advocating for the former, and not at least as much for the latter, your argument doesn’t hold much water with me.
Wolves will always be a hot button, polarizing issue (and thus an easy target for political means and shell games), but I believe there is no single thing we can do to better protect game levels, healthy ecosystems, and our right to hunt, than by protecting habitat in its entirety. On this, we should all be united.
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You are absolutely correct about protecting habitat . Where i grew up we had a healthy Wolf population and good moose numbers as well . We get more moose killed by the rail road in winter than all the Wolves put together. just recently a group was lobbying the gov. Because there is a policy among logging companies to De-activate roads that are no longer in us .( pulling culverts, bridges etc.) They are pissed off because their access has been limited . and they cant get into places with their ATvs and 4x4s .Jeesh!
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I’ve been hunting in Idaho for many years now as a non-resident, and must say that the anger over the Wolf issue is because of an activist judge and a poorly contrived law (Endangered Species Act) that never had “protection” through conservation as a core value. The ESA does not provide a blueprint for conservation of species. But all is not lost. While purchasing my tags today for the Fall Archery Elk season, I ran across this press release on the Idaho Game and Fish website:
“Wolves were removed from the endangered species list on May 5, 2011. Idaho Fish and Game has taken over management under the 2002 wolf management plan. Wolves will be managed as big game animals, similar to black bears and mountain lions. Hunting seasons will be set by the Idaho Fish and Game Commission.” IGF
We can finally start to appreciate a healthy predator population through sound management once again.
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I grew up in the middle of now where, first in the swan valley and then below Glacier Park. I’ve picked huckleberries with grizzlies, but we had almost no wolves. For us this is a new thing especially in the south. I live in Idaho but also hunt in Montana on the Ruby river with my father and brother. We hunt on a family ranch which has 4 generations on it. I want to point out that like us traditional hunters who do not want to be placed under the “Big Tent” family ranchers should not be placed under the “Big Tent” of the corporate farms. This farm like all family farms are extremely affected by the loss of baby animals by wolves. We can not allow them to be use by corporate farms as examples nor can we let the government red tape them to death. As ethical hunters and woodmans we need to get rid of the polarization of the issue and illuminate the multiplicity of problems and solutions that are making up this debate.
Erik
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runamuck wrote:
I want to point out that like us traditional hunters who do not want to be placed under the “Big Tent” family ranchers should not be placed under the “Big Tent” of the corporate farms. This farm like all family farms are extremely affected by the loss of baby animals by wolves. We can not allow them to be use by corporate farms as examples nor can we let the government red tape them to death. As ethical hunters and woodmans we need to get rid of the polarization of the issue and illuminate the multiplicity of problems and solutions that are making up this debate.Erik
Agreed, and I should probably clarify my statement above – I live in a rural part of Idaho as well, and I’m sympathetic to how tough it is in this day and age to continue ranching at the family farm/smaller-scale level, and not give in to the pressures of corporate farms and developers. And I support it with the local beef we buy every season. Like I said above, if you’re on your own land, you should have the ability, and tools you need, in order to protect your livelihood.
My point is only to the undue amount of influence that the livestock industry has over what happens on public land, and the way they often seem to act as though they own it, and expect that it all be managed for their interest first and foremost without much compromise. It is also a comment on the land mgmt. agencies that frequently cater to this one lobby in the West as though it is their sole user group, at times to the detriment of their responsibility to manage the land in a balanced way for all. Public land grazing has its place if it’s managed well and done responsibly, unfortunately I see too much evidence to the contrary.
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Well said Smitty. There’s no doubt that ranching has an important and historic role in the West and other ranges. But there is no argument that can be constructed that defends some of the obvious damage done by mismanagement of public lands.
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Smithhammer,
I agree with you 100% and I knew exactly what you where saying. The mismanagement of public lands in Idaho is something I personally know first hand as being atrocious and we teach it in hunters ed now. The mismanagement is quickly traced backed to corporate farms, and its sad. Dr. Lowie has documented the extreme influence of the agricultural lobby on the U.S. government since the 1930’s. I feel that it’s getting to the point that its either agro-coporate farms or complete privatization that we are now seeing of land. It tears my heart out.
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was camping at Corn ck this weekend on the Salmon river and hiked back into Horse ck. I decided I would walk up and ck the stock bridge out and low and behold my GSD takes off like a shot and she is hot on the heels of a nice wolf . I called her back and that wolf looked back at us like what the hey. I got her out of there but it was nice seeing that wolf. Just thought I would share.
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Wahoo — for me, it’s chance encounters like that, the constantly lurking expectation of encountering the unexpected, the ambiance of mystery and possibility, that gives wildlands their magnetic draw. I feel sorry for anyone who is unable to rise above predator bias in order to feel the magic. There is wolf politics, which we could call “practical,” and there are wolves, which we could call “spirits.” They exist in the same canid body but are two entirely different beings. As with most of the best things in life, the tricky bit is attaining a sustainable balance. imho
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