What Broadhead weight is better

[jmsmithy]

#6234

Hi Guys

In my search for arrow nirvana I’ve tried a lot. Certainly for me, 5-5.5 in left helical fletch proves most accurate in general with my setup (50at28 BW PMAII). My question is where to go with broadheads. I’ve seen all weights and have done ok with 145 gr various 2 blades but intrigued with things like Ashby’s from Alaska bowhunter…How does 315 gr broadhead affect flight…has any body had experience with them. Ive heard nothing but good things but lot of $$ to experiment with. Thanks

[David Petersen]

#49213

I practiced and hunted this year with the ABS Ashby primarily, but also carried the new 200 El Grande. Both fly great with the same carbon shafts because the 100-grain screw-in adaptor used with the El Grande brings the weights very close. Last year I killed an elk with a Brown Bear, which is very close to the Ashby but a lot cheaper. Also had good luck with Tusker Concords, and here again you can balance all these heads to nearly the same weight with inserts and adapters. I shoot them all from the same bows on the same shafts with very little if any difference in accuracy. If you’re hunting elk etc. with that 50-pounder, the heavier heads are important. If just deer you don’t need that kind of weight. That’s my experience. dave

[Ireland]

#50493

David Petersen wrote: I practiced and hunted this year with the ABS Ashby primarily, but also carried the new 200 El Grande. Both fly great with the same carbon shafts because the 100-grain screw-in adaptor used with the El Grande brings the weights very close. Last year I killed an elk with a Brown Bear, which is very close to the Ashby but a lot cheaper. Also had good luck with Tusker Concords, and here again you can balance all these heads to nearly the same weight with inserts and adapters. I shoot them all from the same bows on the same shafts with very little if any difference in accuracy. If you’re hunting elk etc. with that 50-pounder, the heavier heads are important. If just deer you don’t need that kind of weight. That’s my experience. dave

In 99% of actual deer hunting situations, as Dave has stated, “deer don’t need that kind of weight”. I’m in full agreement. How about the other 1% when things go wrong? Please refer to the post “Broadhead Sharpness and Bloodtrails” posted by “Sharpster”. One of Sharpsters hunting friends shot this deer with a 810 grain arrow, 25% EFOC and Grizzly broadhead. Please note the pictures showing the poor penetration. It sounds like the hunter was pretly happy that he went into the woods with an set-up that would possibly be considered “over-kill” for even an elk. His arrow weight is almost exactly double what many bow hunters carry into the field year after year.

Ireland

[Jason Wesbrock]

#50609

jmsmithy wrote: Hi Guys

In my search for arrow nirvana I’ve tried a lot. Certainly for me, 5-5.5 in left helical fletch proves most accurate in general with my setup (50at28 BW PMAII). My question is where to go with broadheads. I’ve seen all weights and have done ok with 145 gr various 2 blades but intrigued with things like Ashby’s from Alaska bowhunter…How does 315 gr broadhead affect flight…has any body had experience with them. Ive heard nothing but good things but lot of $$ to experiment with. Thanks

If you take a well tuned arrow and change the tip weight, it will no longer remain well tuned. The shaft material, be it wood, aluminum, or carbon, won’t negate that fact.

Changing from a 145-grain tip to a 315-grain one will require a stiffer shaft. Even an 800-grain EFOC arrow won’t penetrate worth a lick if it flies like a corkscrew.

[Ed Ashby]

#51576

J.Wesbrock wrote: Even an 800-grain EFOC arrow won’t penetrate worth a lick if it flies like a corkscrew.

That’s “spot on”. Perfect arrow flight is the “enabler” for all of the other penetration enhancing factors, allowing each additional to factor perform at maximum efficiency, and is second in importance to only total structural integrity of the entire arrow system.

Start with the tip weight you want to use then develop your arrow setup around that, such that you end up with a structurally strong arrow that is tuned for as near perfect flight as you can achieve.

Unless you are shooting arrows with very, very low FOC (well below 5 or 6 percent), if your arrow is well tuned you won’t need anywhere near 5″ or 5.5″ of helical fletching to give ‘accurate arrow flight’ AND stabalize ANY (properly aligned) broadhead on the market! If your arrow’s FOC is anywhere in the commonly used range and you need that much fletching to get your arrow to shoot ‘accurate’ then the tuning is far from perfect.

Don’t take the above to mean that there’s not an advantage to using larger fletching ON HUNTING ARROWS HAVING LOWER AMOUNTS OF FOC. When FOC is at the lower levels using large amounts of fletching area helps with faster paradox recovery, and that translates into greater penetration ON SHOTS AT VERY CLOSE RANGES.

Well tuned EFOC and Ultra-EFOC arrows never require large amounts of fletching area. When properly tuned the EFOC/Ultra-EFOC arrows recover from paradox extremely quickly; far more rapidly than arrows having lower amounts of FOC. The very goal of proper FIELD-POINT bare shaft tuning EFOC/Ultra-EFOC arrows is to find the precise dynamic spine that gives rapid, correctly aligned arrow flight WITHOUT FLETCHING with the heavy point weight. Once that is acheived you only need enough fletching to overcome the broadhead’s wind shear effect (and any release irregularatied you might have).

Hope that helps a bit,

Ed

[Ireland]

#52567

Dr. Ed Ashby wrote: [quote=J.Wesbrock]Even an 800-grain EFOC arrow won’t penetrate worth a lick if it flies like a corkscrew.

That’s “spot on”. Perfect arrow flight is the “enabler” for all of the other penetration enhancing factors, allowing each additional to factor perform at maximum efficiency, and is second in importance to only total structural integrity of the entire arrow system.

Start with the tip weight you want to use then develop your arrow setup around that, such that you end up with a structurally strong arrow that is tuned for as near perfect flight as you can achieve.

Unless you are shooting arrows with very, very low FOC (well below 5 or 6 percent), if your arrow is well tuned you won’t need anywhere near 5″ or 5.5″ of helical fletching to give ‘accurate arrow flight’ AND stabalize ANY (properly aligned) broadhead on the market! If your arrow’s FOC is anywhere in the commonly used range and you need that much fletching to get your arrow to shoot ‘accurate’ then the tuning is far from perfect.

Don’t take the above to mean that there’s not an advantage to using larger fletching ON HUNTING ARROWS HAVING LOWER AMOUNTS OF FOC. When FOC is at the lower levels using large amounts of fletching area helps with faster paradox recovery, and that translates into greater penetration ON SHOTS AT VERY CLOSE RANGES.

Well tuned EFOC and Ultra-EFOC arrows never require large amounts of fletching area. When properly tuned the EFOC/Ultra-EFOC arrows recover from paradox extremely quickly; far more rapidly than arrows having lower amounts of FOC. The very goal of proper FIELD-POINT bare shaft tuning EFOC/Ultra-EFOC arrows is to find the precise dynamic spine that gives rapid, correctly aligned arrow flight WITHOUT FLETCHING with the heavy point weight. Once that is acheived you only need enough fletching to overcome the broadhead’s wind shear effect (and any release irregularatied you might have).

Hope that helps a bit,

Ed

Thank you Dr. Ashby for your excellent reply. The A&A fletching that you have experimented with appears to be a “home-made” design and not availble for purchase. Does the 2 inch Rayzr by Gateway Feathers fullfill the requirements of “only need enough fletching to overcome the broadhead’s wind shear effect”. What is your take on this design?

Thanks,

Ireland

[Ed Ashby]

#53926

Ireland, There are some advantages to the A&A pattern, but any of the smaller fletchings can be used, regardless of the pattern of the cut.

The A&A cut is a simple tringle. The back of the fletching is cut at a 90 degree angle, and is 1/2″ high. From the fletching’s rear to it’s front is a straight taper. This makes the fletching easy to cut from a full length feather, even if using just scissors.

The A&A’s advantage I was refering to is that the largest portion (the majority of the fletching’s surface area) is located at the very rear end. This increases the distance from the major portion (greates surface area) of the fletching to the arrow’s balance point. That means a longer rear steering arm for the greatest portion of the fletching, which permits slightly smaller fletching to be used. Smaller equals lighter, which helps when trying to get Ultra-EFOC.

A square cut rear on the fletching also shows the least air turbulance of ny design, reducing noise in flight. I also find it to be the most water resistant of any fletching pattern I’ve tried; virtually unaffected by moisture, even when soaked in a bucket of water for a full 30 minutes. I THINK that has to do with the stiffness of the low cut.

Hope that is of some help,

Ed

[Ireland]

#54127

Dr. Ed Ashby wrote: Ireland, There are some advantages to the A&A pattern, but any of the smaller fletchings can be used, regardless of the pattern of the cut.

The A&A cut is a simple tringle. The back of the fletching is cut at a 90 degree angle, and is 1/2″ high. From the fletching’s rear to it’s front is a straight taper. This makes the fletching easy to cut from a full length feather, even if using just scissors.

The A&A’s advantage I was refering to is that the largest portion (the majority of the fletching’s surface area) is located at the very rear end. This increases the distance from the major portion (greates surface area) of the fletching to the arrow’s balance point. That means a longer rear steering arm for the greatest portion of the fletching, which permits slightly smaller fletching to be used. Smaller equals lighter, which helps when trying to get Ultra-EFOC.

A square cut rear on the fletching also shows the least air turbulance of ny design, reducing noise in flight. I also find it to be the most water resistant of any fletching pattern I’ve tried; virtually unaffected by moisture, even when soaked in a bucket of water for a full 30 minutes. I THINK that has to do with the stiffness of the low cut.

Hope that is of some help,

Ed

Dr. Ashby,

Thank you so much for your very informative response. Lots of great information here. Can’t wait to give the A&A cut a try. Once again, thank you for everything that you do to help fellow hunters!!!

Best wishes,

Ireland

[Ed Ashby]

#54696

Ireland, just as when bare shaft tuning, finding the minimum amount of A&A pattern fletching is a step by step process. Once you feel that you have the bare shaft tuned correctly, mount a matched-weight broadhead on one of the shafts. First use what you are absolutely certain is ample fletching to stabilize the broadhead and VERIFY that the fletched-shaft/broadhead has identical impact to the field-point tipped bare shaft. You can use any fletching pattern you like for this step.

Once your shaft tuning is verified switch to the A&A pattern on the broadhead tipped shaft, starting at about 5” length if you are using 3-fletch, or 4” if using 4-fletch. DO NOT add the turbulator yet. Shoot the arrow several times and check the flight stability. If all is well, begin to gradually decrease the length of the A&A fletchings until the point where you FIRST see a slight instability in the arrow’s flight. Be sure to shoot several shots before making a decision on the flight stability, and it helps if you can have another person also watching for flight instability too. Now add the turbulator and check to be sure the flight is again completely stable. If addition of the turbulator does not completely stabilize the arrow’s flight increase the fletching length by ¼” and check again, with the turbulator in place.

Many factors affect what the minimum A&A fletching that will work FOR YOU is. A big factor is quality of your release (mine’s poor). Other major factors are the type of broadhead (how much wind sheer it generates) and the amount of FOC on the arrow and the shaft’s length. Your draw length on whatever length shaft you are using is also a factor. At a given amount of FOC, the longer the shaft the less fletching required; because of the lengthened rear steering arm. Your draw length vs. shaft length affects the point of maximum shaft flex upon release.

This sounds like a lot of work, and it is, but it is a one time job for a given arrow setup. It’s analogous to a working up the very best handload for a rifle; and cheaper and easier to accomplish than finding the best rifle handload too!

Hope that is of some help,

Ed

[Ireland]

#54870

Dr. Ed Ashby wrote: Ireland, just as when bare shaft tuning, finding the minimum amount of A&A pattern fletching is a step by step process. Once you feel that you have the bare shaft tuned correctly, mount a matched-weight broadhead on one of the shafts. First use what you are absolutely certain is ample fletching to stabilize the broadhead and VERIFY that the fletched-shaft/broadhead has identical impact to the field-point tipped bare shaft. You can use any fletching pattern you like for this step.

Once your shaft tuning is verified switch to the A&A pattern on the broadhead tipped shaft, starting at about 5” length if you are using 3-fletch, or 4” if using 4-fletch. DO NOT add the turbulator yet. Shoot the arrow several times and check the flight stability. If all is well, begin to gradually decrease the length of the A&A fletchings until the point where you FIRST see a slight instability in the arrow’s flight. Be sure to shoot several shots before making a decision on the flight stability, and it helps if you can have another person also watching for flight instability too. Now add the turbulator and check to be sure the flight is again completely stable. If addition of the turbulator does not completely stabilize the arrow’s flight increase the fletching length by ¼” and check again, with the turbulator in place.

Many factors affect what the minimum A&A fletching that will work FOR YOU is. A big factor is quality of your release (mine’s poor). Other major factors are the type of broadhead (how much wind sheer it generates) and the amount of FOC on the arrow and the shaft’s length. Your draw length on whatever length shaft you are using is also a factor. At a given amount of FOC, the longer the shaft the less fletching required; because of the lengthened rear steering arm. Your draw length vs. shaft length affects the point of maximum shaft flex upon release.

This sounds like a lot of work, and it is, but it is a one time job for a given arrow setup. It’s analogous to a working up the very best handload for a rifle; and cheaper and easier to accomplish than finding the best rifle handload too!

Hope that is of some help,

Ed

Dr. Ashby,

Once again, thank you for your very clear and detailed approach to using the A&A fletching. I love the “step-by-step” details that anyone can follow. Can’t wait to give it a try…

Thanks again for all you do…

Ireland

[Ed Ashby]

#54879

It’s my pleasure, Ireland. Looking forward to hearing your results.

Ed

[Stephen Graf]

#55664

I have to say that at short ranges, I just don’t see the advantage of trying to use as short a fletching as you can get away with.

I understand that you will gain a few feet per second, but you won’t gain 10 fps. And at 20 yds or less, the drag of longer fletching is irrelevant.

It seems like after going through all the work to make sure your arrow provides the best performance for worst case scenarios of penetration (EFOC, Single Bevel, 3 to 1 ratio, etc…), using short fletching is just giving Murphy a chance to muck things up.

[jmsmithy]

#55986

Thanks Dr. Ed and Ireland,

A LOT of info to digest. Reading all this along with Dr. Ed’s reports on another site (it is there “Stiks” that are hitting nock left bare shafted)

Boy do I have a lot to do, but the shooting is the fun, the hunt is the bonus in my eyes…

One other question, should I strip fletching off a few of my MFX arrows (they fly well) and try them bare shafted? I never did that only went right to fletching and got better results with 5 in helical 145-50 grain heads then with straight 4 in fletch with 125 gr heads????

Great info from you both…thanks for helping out us “newbies”

Be well.

[tom-wisconsin]

#63250

JMSmithy

Here is my set up for my 43# bow.

GT expeditions hunters 3555
Spine 0.500
Straightness 0.600 +/-
30” cut to cut
30.75 inches BOP
7.4 gpi
222 grains
9 gr nock
6.9 gr fletching
100 gr brass inserts
125 gr steel adapter
Abowyer Brown Bear 175 gr
brass washer 5 gr
Balance pt 24.75 “
FOC 30.48%
645 gr total wt

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