Ultra-EFOC Barely Above The Heavy Bone Threshold

[Ed Ashby]

#6366

The next Update (2008, Part 5) will be posted very soon. It contains some of the most intertesting test results to emerge from the study. It makes comparisons of the shot results between a ‘barely above threshold’ Ultra-EFOC arrow against a wide assortment of other above-threshold arrow setups (normal, high and EFOC) where the same broadhead was used on each setup. The comparison goes all the way to vs. the “classic, super-heavy buffalo arrow setups”. The results are nothing short of astonishing.

Ed

[kingwouldbee]

#50556

Hi Doc. looking forward to your stuff as always, hope your doing well.

[Ed Ashby]

#50566

Thanks King. I’m probably doing far better than I deserve to be doing. Have a F/U with the orthopedic surgeon tomorrow. Hope knee No.1 is doing well enough to start setting up the surgery for knee No.2. Back to the oncologist next week … and sure do hope all the test results will look good there!

The Part 6 Update will be on trying to quantify the Ultra-EFOC penetration effect. Rough cut on it is done already, but lots of re-checking (and re-re-checking) of the data and calculations to do before it will be ready to send out.

Ed

[sapcut]

#50931

Glad to hear the info. Hope everything turns out spectacular with the medical test results.

Richie

[sharpster]

#50983

Great news Ed! Looking forward to the next installment but even happier to hear you’re doing better and getting your life back! Good for you my friend!!!

BTW, We’ve discussed this before but you really need to find a better abreviation for “Follow up”… Some people might take offence… LOL!

Ron

[Robin Conrads]

#51328

I have posted the next update. You can read it here.

Ed, I am glad to see you back on the forum. Hope all goes well with the tests and such. We are all pulling for ya. 😀

[Ed Ashby]

#51609

Knee op No.2 is tenatively scheduled for early November … immediately after I journey back to Texas to vote! 😡 The follow-up (that better Ron?) with the oncologist has been rescheduled to the 14th of Sept.

Thanks for getting the new Update posted so quickly. Sent to all locations at the same time, but available on Tradbow first!

Ed

[kingwouldbee]

#52266

Hi Ed, I pray God’s best for you and a speedy recover, I know it must be killing you not to be able to be out in the field.

I also want to personally thank you, for your unselfish sacrifices to share with all your finding.

Your studies, like most science, only make us ask more question, as we learn more, we think of new question.

So, here’s one, how about a 655 gran arrow with a 40% UFOC, ( I have not been able to make one yet ) I have been maxing out at around the 30% mark.

As I put more weight forward, the shaft(spine)just cant handle it.

I think keeping the weight of the arrow down, gives us the best of both worlds, flatter trajectory with supper penetration.

I might have to design a new arrow, as my Frankenstein 😯 arrow has hit the max.

[Str8arrow]

#52702

Hi Ed,

Thanks for the new update. More incredible information on arrow performance! I wish you the best in your recovery.

kingwoudbe, I’m not answering for Ed, but I would guess that you have to build out your rest to get as far away from center-shot as possible. I haven’t tried a UFOC arrow build yet, but when I do it will likely be on a bow that I’m able to move the rest as far from center as I can. I’m also guessing that a weight-forward carbon arrow would be essential.

[Ed Ashby]

#52707

Yep, I’d like to get an FOC that high too, but I haven’t had the opportunity to even try yet. Lord willing I’ll be through most of the major medical stuff by year’s end. Then I’ll need to try and get my gear back together (and probably have to learn to shoot all over again) and start tinkering. As you can see in the new Update Ultra-EFOC offers a sizable penetration jump from even the EFOC setups tested. Everything suggest that the percent penetration gain per percent FOC increase increases progressively as FOC gets higher. There’s a whole world of opportunity to do some interesting testing at Ultra-EFOC levels … and I’m not all that certain that I’m going to be able to do much of it from here forward.

Ed

[Ed Ashby]

#52710

As Steve suggest, building the arrow plate out is an important tool when one it trying to develop and tune arrows that are in the Ultra-EFOC range.

Ed

[kingwouldbee]

#52787

Thanks Steve & Ed, I’m way past center, I think I’m over my knuckle now 😕 lol

I have been trying to just reach the UFOC, I took 2, 300 grain broadheads and taped them together, just to see what the numbers whir,” NO; I did not try and shoot it “

The highest I could reach was 35%, I also have been doing internal footing with a few hundred grains added.

I need a super light shaft, that can handle 500/600 grains on the front.

I have noticed that even if I add 100 or 200 grains, I get vary little movement in the UFOC.

Ed, I want an arrow that has the BRICK on the front you talked about.

Just absolutely fantastic stuff Ed

[sapcut]

#52795

King,
You may be measuring differently, not wrong but different. I measure the total length to the end of the cut arrow. Not including insert, as per AMO standards in Dr. Ashby’s report.

My best so far is 978 gr. and 36.6%. That is 700 gr. up front including aluminum footings. I haven’t tried any heavier. That dude flys great too at 160 fps.

[Str8arrow]

#53424

sapcut wrote: King,
You may be measuring differently, not wrong but different. I measure the total length to the end of the cut arrow. Not including insert, as per AMO standards in Dr. Ashby’s report.

My best so far is 978 gr. and 36.6%. That is 700 gr. up front including aluminum footings. I haven’t tried any heavier. That dude flys great too at 160 fps.

By the sounds of it, I’m guessing it doesn’t really matter how we measure it, as long as we shoot the heaviest weight on the front we can get away with, along with the lightest shaft that will handle it. Add in the right broadhead and super tuning, and you’ll end up with the best penetrating arrow possible with your bow at your draw length.

[tom-wisconsin]

#53886

Glad your back on the mend, Ed.

[mswickard]

#53984

Doc

Glad everything is going well. Excellent write up, truely enjoy reading your findings.

So at what % do you consider Ultra-EFoC? My current elk set-up is a CX Terminator Select shaft 45/60 w/ 100 gr brass insert. Elburg 160 gr Grizzly w/ 125 gr steel insert. This gets me 678 gr arrow and 28% EFoC. Out of my 53@28 McCullogh Griffin LB (I pull 28.5), this arrow hit like Thor’s Hammer.

Thanks for all you do, and the write up on the 54# Lb gave me the direction to work on the arrow that I am now using for my Griffin LB.

Be Well

Mike

[kingwouldbee]

#53998

sapcut wrote: King,
You may be measuring differently, not wrong but different. I measure the total length to the end of the cut arrow. Not including insert, as per AMO standards in Dr. Ashby’s report.

My best so far is 978 gr. and 36.6%. That is 700 gr. up front including aluminum footings. I haven’t tried any heavier. That dude flys great too at 160 fps.

I use the EFOC calculator, I’m sure it is right, as I be understanding what I be doing 😆

I got’cha Sap, the difference is, your shaft is lighter than the one I’m using, yours is 287 grains and mine is 440 grains so I am to heavy in the shaft and back end.

The best I have been able to get is 34%, which is good, I just want more.

Sap, 978 gn. @ a buck sixty is smoken with 36.6%.

What I want is 35-40% UEFOC with a 650-700 gr. arrow giving me super penetration and flat trajectory.

We need a stiff soda straw that can handle 400-600gn. on the front

[kingwouldbee]

#54000

Str8arrow wrote: [quote=sapcut]King,
You may be measuring differently, not wrong but different. I measure the total length to the end of the cut arrow. Not including insert, as per AMO standards in Dr. Ashby’s report.

My best so far is 978 gr. and 36.6%. That is 700 gr. up front including aluminum footings. I haven’t tried any heavier. That dude flys great too at 160 fps.

By the sounds of it, I’m guessing it doesn’t really matter how we measure it, as long as we shoot the heaviest weight on the front we can get away with, along with the lightest shaft that will handle it. Add in the right broadhead and super tuning, and you’ll end up with the best penetrating arrow possible with your bow at your draw length.

Str8arrow you hit the ten ring, we just like exchanging recipes.

The new study shows you don’t have to shoot a log to get maximum penetration, just move as much of the arrows weight as far forward as you can.

[wTk]

#54562

Ed it’s great to hear from you. Glad your doing well and prayers continue for healing and good reports.

[Ed Ashby]

#55488

Mike, Ultra-EFOC is (Study defined) as being 30% and above. The reason being, it’s really difficult to reach 30% and above FOC without making a concentrated effort to attain FOC.

Just putting high tip weight on most light weight shafts will get you into the EFOC range, but the higher the FOC gets the more increase in tip weight it takes to make the same degree of FOC increase. As Ultra-EFOC is approached it is more ‘productive’ to be reducing weight at the shaft’s rear than adding additional tip weight. That’s because the rear leaver arm (the distance from the nock to the balance point) gets longer as the FOC increases, and the forward lever arm, from the arrow’s front to the balance point) gets shorter. The longer the leaver arm the more force a given amount of weight can exert.

Ed

[smiley1]

#58084

Dr.Ed, your reports are amazing. Being a person who has MS I am no longer able to shoot bows in the 60-65# range. My current bow is 50#. I am shoooting 650-670 grain carbons with 28% FOC. Because of your unselfish research I am able to continue hunting knowing I am shooting an arrow/broadhead combination that is more than adequate for the local whitetail population. Glad to see you are posting again. May God bless You. Thanks

[Ed Ashby]

#58102

Smiley1, your post is worth more to me than money, as a personal reward for all the years and expense invested!

Ed

[Timbow]

#58231

It really is great to see you back on the forum Ed! We really miss you when you are gone. Hope all goes well with your health and you are back in the field soon.
I try to read everything pioneers like you and O.L. write. Speaking of O.L. I haven’t seen him post anything in a while.
I am not only fascinated by the arrow penetration studies you have done but the silent arrow, turbulators, and skinny strings as well.:D
In my pursuit to attain ultra-EFOC I have found the lightest and stiffest shafts in terms of GPI are Easton Flatlines and Gold Tip Ultralights. Cut your arrows as short as you can get by with and don’t go with a arrow shelf that is too center shot. This makes ultra-EFOC pretty easy to attain. I know you are already aware of all this Doc but I thought it worth repeating.:)

[stalkin4elk]

#22602

the lightest and stiffest shafts in terms of GPI are Easton Flatlines and Gold Tip Ultralights. Cut your arrows as short as you can get by with and don’t go with a arrow shelf that is too center shot.
Are you findind these arrows stiff enough when adding required point weights such as 100gr adapters,125gr inserts,and up to 300gr pts/bh?
I’m bareshafting quite weak at 29.5-30inches(min length possible) with GT Expedition Hunter 7595 out of a Centaur 60# @29 bow and didn’t yet solve the issue with side plate additions. I do need more quality time messing with the side plate however. If I recall Doc used a similiar set up testing but I think he used a shorter shaft which I’m unable to do. Still wishing for the magic arrow for this new bow!
Thanks

[Timbow]

#24165

I shoot both my Gold Tip ultralight 600’s and my Easton Flatline 400’s with 100gr. brass inserts and 250gr. points. My arrow length is about 27″ and I could go shorter with my 25.5″ draw length. I quit cutting them down once they tune right with those easily accessible components. If I go any higher in weight than that it is difficult to match field tips, blunts, and broadheads in the same weights. My arrows tune great using those spines for two different bows of course. Interestingly the lower poundage bow uses the higher spined arrow because it is more efficient and more centershot. Ultra EFOC is probably the only place in archery where a shorter draw is a benefeit. Using a shorter arrow allows for a lighter spine and lighter GPI shaft.:D

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