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    • James Harvey
      Member
        Post count: 1130

        So I decided to do some real world testing on bone today. I had a heap of beef bones from ye olde butcher, a 60# recurve, 70# longbow, and 2 different, yet similar arrows.

        From my recurve I was shooting a 300 grain Tuffhead on a 300spine carbon shaft (Total weight: ~740grains, Head weight: 440 grains, FOC: 30%). From my longbow I was shooting a 130 grain Ribtek on a 75# wood shaft (Total weight: ~740 grains, Head weight: 130 grains, FOC: ~12%).

        I was excited to see if there were notable differences in the way the different heads went through the bones and to see how the heads themselves held up to the abuse. It was also going to be a little test of my woodies as I’ve never shot an animal with them and was looking forward to gaining some experience in how they handle this kind of abuse.

        At 9 yards, I shot a couple of warm ups with the recurve, then stuck about a 6 inch length of beef leg (cut in half lengthways) on my target and shot my Tuffhead at it. It split the bone nicely down the whole length of it and penetrated about 9 inches my target. The Tuffhead had a little roughing up on one edge, a few mm long, but nothing a quick touch up on the stone couldn’t fix. It’s tanto tip looked like it had just come out of the factory.

        I put up an almost identical piece of leg bone and shot my Ribtek at it from my longbow. I should have shot a couple of warm ups with the longbow, because I missed 😳 . When I pulled the shaft out I discovered I’m as good a gluer as I am a longbow shooter, because the Ribtek was AWOL.

        I went into the garage to get something to dig around in the target with to find my missing broadhead. When I came back out I got to witness the rare pleasure a dog has of finding an unguarded bag of beef bones. That was the beginning of a comedy of the ridiculous which included that cheerful mutt excitedly weeing on my carpet target and concluded with me calling a halt to the whole affair because did I mention that I had time to do this today because I had taken the day off work to look after my sick wife and two infant children? Well it turns out that I may have been shirking family responsibilities to “do some quick shooting in the yard”. Especially when “quick shooting” turns into “neglecting sick family’s welfare to wrestle urinating dog”. Naturally, I took the high road, which looked a lot like a man running inside with his arms full of archery gear, his tail between his legs and a dog cheerfully chewing on the spoils of war.

        So this aborted experiment showed some promise for the Tuffhead, but I think Dutch was the real winner here. I hope to update this post with some more comprehensive findings and photos to match 😉

        Jim

      • tailfeather
          Post count: 417

          Well that went downhill in a hurry.:lol: That’s hilarious….too bad you didn’t have the camera on. That video you posted awhile back of your dog and archery practice was comedy gold.

          Post the results when you get everybody healed up.

        • Alexandre Bugnon
          Member
            Post count: 681

            😆

          • Bruce Smithhammer
              Post count: 2514

              ausjim wrote: Naturally, I took the high road, which looked a lot like a man running inside with his arms full of archery gear, his tail between his legs and a dog cheerfully chewing on the spoils of war.

              Looking forward to updates and continued research!

            • tombow
                Post count: 103

                Ah the best laid plans of mice and men…..with a clever dog by their sides to wreak havoc upon those plans. Good luck with attempt no. 2. Best of luck and good health to your wife and wee enfants.

              • Doc Nock
                  Post count: 1150

                  I’ve got zero insights to leg bone splitting set ups or the like, but as with others, just a tip of the hat for a good jolly laugh.

                  You do turn a phrase well and tell a story so one can see the pictures unfold without a camera!

                  Thanks for the chuckles! Echo of well wishes above for your wife’s recuperation and the infants to withstand “Dad” as “MR.. Mom”

                  Good luck to all!

                • Stephen Graf
                  Moderator
                    Post count: 2429

                    You are a hoot Jim!

                    From my experience, the best way to find a broadhead stuck in a target is to forget about it and then shoot it with another arrow. Works almost every time 😳

                  • grumpy
                    Member
                      Post count: 962

                      ROFL

                    • James Harvey
                      Member
                      Member
                        Post count: 1130

                        Just a little update, I’ve been shooting more beef shoulders and humerus’ (humeri?) and thus far I have one definitive finding. The 300grain tuffhead is indestructable. I’ve been breaking shafts and other broadheads at a fairly high rate of knots and I’ve only been shooting the one tuffhead and it just needs touch ups on the edge. If they weren’t so darned expensive to get out here I’d be dropping this experiment and jumping straight into ‘tuffhead vs block of concrete’.

                        Anyway, I hope to have some decent pics and comparisons to share before long 😉

                        Jim

                        PS thanks for all the kinds words fellas 😉

                      • David Petersen
                        Member
                          Post count: 2749

                          Jim, what would be most interesting is a photo showing the damage to the various other heads, as well as the indestructible one! One of the most informative parts of Ashby’s research are the photos of damaged and destroyed heads. By looking at how they are designed, you can pretty well guess beforehand where they will fail. As a military man you fully understand how much fun there can be in gratuitously destroying things! 😛

                        • Ed Ashby
                          Member
                            Post count: 817

                            “When something works all we get are a few measurements for comparison purposes. When something fails we get an opportunity to find out why it failed.”

                            Ed

                          • Col Mike
                            Member
                              Post count: 911

                              Well said Dr.Ed spoken like a scientist:D

                              Semper Fi

                              Mike

                            • James Harvey
                              Member
                              Member
                                Post count: 1130

                                Alright, here a couple of good images from the last few days…

                                This is about my favourite image, because this shot wrecked a couple of things.. The shaft actually failed just in front of the fletching, which I suspect must be the consequences of an earlier impact weakening the shaft there. I don’t remember a particular impact but I’m pretty rough on my arrows. You can see that the head only penetrated about an inch before it was stopped in it’s tracks (courtesy of a gnarly joint and head failure), perhaps that excess energy just had to go somewhere. You can see the tail end flying past in the still taken from video.

                                Here you can see that head after it was excavated from the bone. I’ve shot these heads through a couple inches of bone before but hitting the gnarly joint where it did was not kind to it… You can see the head bent sharply right in front of the ferule. I guess this is where the near full length ferrule of the Tuffhead earns it’s money.

                                This is one of the outback’s after shooting through the thin flat part of the humerus. I haven’t touched it besides rinsing it off and it looks immaculate. I’ve ruined a few of these over the years and lost even more, typically where I’ve seen them fail is the thin arms extending back past the screw getting bent out of shape. I’ve never seen one bend in front of the ferrule like the one above did.

                                Here is something that Dave et al have reported as a common failure but I have only just encountered myself. It is a failure in both the Al insert and the steel adaptor. The cause was a glancing strike on the long part of the bone. I’m not sure if the damage occurred when the head struck the bone and was deflected away (impact was hard enough to cut a long gouge into the bone) or if it was when the shaft struck the bone after the broadhead passed by. I believe this is the kind of bone strike that Doc Asby’s data showed a 30% failure in C shafts compared to 3% failure in hardwood shafts.

                                There’s nothing revelatory in that, just confirmations of other’s reporting. I’d love to try some tuffheads on some decent hardwood shafts. From reading the good doc’s findings that ought to be about the most absurdly tough hunting arrow getting around.

                                Jim

                                PS

                                I really want to shoot the tuffhead at something stupid (like concrete) but can’t come up with any reasonable justification for it 😉

                              • David Petersen
                                Member
                                  Post count: 2749

                                  Great work, Jim, thanks. That first pic, from the video, is really cool. A glancing hit to a heavy bone joint on a large animal is about as tough as the challenge comes. I find it tough to envision that any hardwood shaft with a glue-on point could be stronger than a properly set-up screw-in with carbon … “proper” meaning steel internals. At first glance (pun intended), it seems either the glue joint would fail, or the wood shaft break behind the head, due to the abrupt transition from head to wood … while a screw-in has about an inch of insert and screw shaft plus carbon shaft–three layers, if you will–to distribute the blow across. But if Ed’s research showed that to be the case, then it may be time to give up on EFOC with wood shafts and go for something really heavy and strong, like hickory, which is where I began this adventure of learning many years ago, full circle.

                                • Ed Ashby
                                  Member
                                    Post count: 817

                                    ausjim wrote:

                                    Thus the reason for all the experiments into one-piece brass and steel inserts,internal footings and slow-cure epoxies … and the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of dollars worth of arrows destroyed against armor plate!

                                    Dave, the 2 best – toughest – wood shafts tested were the Forgewooda and hickory; especially the tapered hickories (I think it helps to lower the shaft’s “push’ from its rear mass). These woods proved more durable than heavier hardwoods, such as Ipe and purple heart. The key to decreasing glue failure is good shaft and ferrule prep and fit, and the use of slow-cure epoxy.

                                    Ed

                                  • David Petersen
                                    Member
                                      Post count: 2749

                                      Ed, yes, tapered wood shafts always and only! So please remind me, if Forgewood and hickory were second, what was the best hardwood you tested re breakage resistance? As I recall from reading the reports, Forgewood was the best … but I can hardly recall my own name on some days anymore. 😳

                                    • Ed Ashby
                                      Member
                                        Post count: 817

                                        Dr. Ed Ashby wrote: the 2 best – toughest – wood shafts tested were the Forgewooda and hickory; especially the tapered hickories

                                        The Forgewoods and tapered hickories came out as #1 and #2 in toughness among all the hardwood shafts tested, with the Forgewoods SLIGHTLY beating out the hickories. Third was the laminated birch, but there was a pretty big ‘durability gap’ between the top two and the laminated birch.

                                        Ed

                                      • Col Mike
                                        Member
                                          Post count: 911

                                          ausjim wrote

                                          PS

                                          I really want to shoot the tuffhead at something stupid (like concrete) but can’t come up with any reasonable justification for it 😉

                                          Jim

                                          My tuffheads on carbon with 28% EFOC are primed and ready for this deer season. However, after that, if you can send me a good recipe for concrete block I will shoot one and send you the results:D

                                          Semper Fi

                                          Mike

                                          PS. Great data collection congrats.

                                        • David Petersen
                                          Member
                                            Post count: 2749

                                            Jim and Mike — Concrete block is best either slow-cooked in a stew or as jerky. 😛

                                          • James Harvey
                                            Member
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                                              Post count: 1130

                                              Dr. Ed Ashby wrote: The key to decreasing glue failure is good shaft and ferrule prep and fit, and the use of slow-cure epoxy.

                                              Doc, when I hear slow cure epoxy I think 5 minute or 30 minute epoxy. Is that the kind of stuff you’re talking about or is it something else?

                                              Also, I’ve only found one place online that sells ‘Forgewood’ shafts, Alaska Frontier Archery (http://www.alaskafrontierarchery.com/Arrow%20Pricing.html). Are those the kind of shafts you’re talking about? They’re very reasonably priced if they’re the toughest shafts getting around.

                                              Jim

                                            • Robin Conrads
                                              Admin
                                                Post count: 916

                                                I thought these folks were out of business. I emailed them to check and it was bounced back as a closed email address. 🙁

                                              • Ed Ashby
                                                Member
                                                  Post count: 817

                                                  ausjim wrote: Doc, when I hear slow cure epoxy I think 5 minute or 30 minute epoxy. Is that the kind of stuff you’re talking about or is it something else?Jim

                                                  Jim, I’m referring to the 24 hour cure epoxy. It’s a lot stronger then the faster curing epoxies.

                                                  It’s my understanding that Frontier Archery is no longer operating and the business was up for sale at one point, and may still be.

                                                  Ed

                                                • James Harvey
                                                  Member
                                                  Member
                                                    Post count: 1130

                                                    Webmother wrote: I emailed them to check and it was bounced back as a closed email address. 🙁

                                                    I emailed them last night and got a bounce as well 🙁

                                                    Doc, thanks for the epoxy advice, I’m glad I asked, I really thought 30 minutes sounded slow 😉

                                                  • Col Mike
                                                    Member
                                                      Post count: 911

                                                      Jim

                                                      So buy the business. Move to the states. Look at the money you would save in postage 8)

                                                      Mike

                                                    • James Harvey
                                                      Member
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                                                        colmike wrote: Jim

                                                        So buy the business. Move to the states. Look at the money you would save in postage 8)

                                                        Mike

                                                        I have day dreams about that kind of life change all the time. I find myself thinking about Alaska just about every day of late.

                                                        In other news I took the plunge and 24 hour epoxied (I like making up verbs) some one piece brass adaptors into some carbon shafts today. I should get the chance to do some more testing over Christmas.

                                                      • jstamlin
                                                        Member
                                                          Post count: 7

                                                          Has anyone tried the Titanium inset that Tuff Head carries?

                                                        • David Petersen
                                                          Member
                                                            Post count: 2749

                                                            Ozzy James — And many Alaskans dream of OZ.

                                                            Titanium inserts–I have some but haven’t yet tried them–that is tried to bend them. That will have to wait for the snow to melt next spring. Given the laws of metallurgy, with a titanium insert and heavy steel head like the Tuffhead, it seems obvious that the shaft end is now the weak point. I’ll be way beyond surprised if it’s otherwise. Since Jim is already trying to destroy Tuffheads with happily no success so far, perhaps he could include the titanium inserts and destroy his shafts so we don’t have to. 😛

                                                          • Vintage Archer
                                                            Member
                                                              Post count: 276

                                                              jstamlin wrote: Has anyone tried the Titanium inset that Tuff Head carries?

                                                              JSTAMLIN Thanks for calling attention to the 75 grain titanium adapter that we offer on our web site.

                                                              This adapter is made from grade 5 titanium which has twice the tensile strength of steel. All titanium adapters are not equal …lessor grades provide lightness but not much more strength than mild steel. Grade five about as high as you can go in toughness and still machine it…

                                                              I have done extensive testing using the 300 TH and this adapter and have not had a failure. I have others that are testing it also and have had no negative reports.

                                                              This adapters has given me more encouragement than any thing I have experimented with.The bending problem has plagued me and others for several years it is a common problem. I believe the grade 5 titanium is the answer.

                                                              I am in the process of having a adapter/insert for a 5/16 arrow made from grade 5 titanium tentative that will weigh 200 grains but will hopefully be 3 inches long so it would be an adapter/insert/internal footing. i am excited about that hopefully it will test well……

                                                            • James Harvey
                                                              Member
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                                                                Post count: 1130

                                                                vintage archer wrote: I am in the process of having a adapter/insert for a 5/16 arrow made from grade 5 titanium tentative that will weigh 200 grains but will hopefully be 3 inches long so it would be an adapter/insert/internal footing. i am excited about that hopefully it will test well……

                                                                That’s exciting news Joe. Matched up with your existing range of heads that would give a reasonable weight range of heavy front ends with a minimum of fuss. Two glue joints and you’re ready to rock’n’roll. Keep us posted on how it goes please 😀

                                                                Jim

                                                              • James Harvey
                                                                Member
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                                                                  David Petersen wrote: Ozzy James — And many Alaskans dream of OZ.

                                                                  Sure, if you like an endless array of beautiful beaches, bars, women and free hospitals, Australia is all right I guess. But if you want to be cold, alone and scared of a big predator, I think Alaska would be hard to beat. I guess the grass is always greener. Silly Alaskans, they don’t know what they’ve got.

                                                                • Troy Breeding
                                                                    Post count: 994

                                                                    ausjim,

                                                                    Incase your having trouble finding 24hr epoxy, try using smooth-on brand. Smooth-on is bow building epoxy.

                                                                    Most folks think it’s a heat cured epoxy. However, it will cure to full strength in 24 hrs at normal room temps. IMHO, it’s the best all around epoxy on the market.

                                                                    The only real draw back to it is the size units it comes in. The smallest unit I’ve seen is pint size. Half in resin, half in hardener. Mixes 50/50.

                                                                    Still, it would be a life time supply and last for years is kept sealed.

                                                                    Troy

                                                                  • Ed Ashby
                                                                    Member
                                                                      Post count: 817

                                                                      vintage archer wrote: I am in the process of having a adapter/insert for a 5/16 arrow made from grade 5 titanium tentative that will weigh 200 grains but will hopefully be 3 inches long so it would be an adapter/insert/internal footing. i am excited about that hopefully it will test well……

                                                                      That’s great news because … what’s up front does make a difference! (Merry Christmas y’all.)

                                                                      Ed

                                                                    • Vintage Archer
                                                                      Member
                                                                        Post count: 276

                                                                        JIM I have switched to JB weld (reg cure not quick cure)

                                                                        for gluing inserts etc. Works great. I have had same problems with reg epoxy that you experience.

                                                                        TROY’S suggestion of smooth on is excellent it is a great epoxy but like he mentions it is not offered in small containers or tubes.

                                                                        DR ED Ed you are always right and you explain and demonstrate your views so well…. Just a suggestion it might not hurt you to get out of the cabin more often.:D:D

                                                                        MERRY CHRISTMAS

                                                                      • David Petersen
                                                                        Member
                                                                          Post count: 2749

                                                                          Joe said to Ed: “it might not hurt you to get out of the cabin more often.”

                                                                          I don’t think so. That Christmas photo is IN his cabin! 😛

                                                                        • Vintage Archer
                                                                          Member
                                                                            Post count: 276

                                                                            Dave

                                                                            You are right. Some times a person does not see the obvious when it is right in front of their eyes!:D

                                                                          • Ed Ashby
                                                                            Member
                                                                              Post count: 817

                                                                              Yes, and that’s what I call the ultimate “stocking stuffer’!

                                                                              Ed

                                                                            • jpcarlson
                                                                              Member
                                                                                Post count: 218

                                                                                Jim,

                                                                                I can tell by reading your posts, you are a passionate about tradarchery. I also get the impression you don’t get out and hunt much. Why not? Seems you have plenty to hunt around there. Huge feral pigs, Asian waterbuffalo, some sort of wild deer you posted a picture of, huge crocs, all sorts of jumping marsupials, and endless bowfishing opportunities! I think you would be bored in Alaska judging on the opportunities you have right out your back door!:)

                                                                                Jans

                                                                              • James Harvey
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                                                                                  My biggest drama Jans is that I generally spend fair whacks out of every year away with work so I find it hard to justify going away for days at a time and leaving my wife with our 2 little kids. I feel like I’m trapped a bit by them sometimes, but they’ll never be toddlers again, so I figure I should spend as much time as I can with them until they’re a little more independent. It would definitely be true to say if I were anywhere else in the world right now, Alaska, South Africa, where ever, I wouldn’t be getting much hunting done 😉

                                                                                  My city’s mayor is trying to get a bill passed at the moment that would allow members of the Australian Bowhunters Association (like me) to hunt council land. Which would be awesome. I can walk a km into the scrub from my front door and find pigs. It’s just on council land that I’m not allowed to hunt 😕

                                                                                • jpcarlson
                                                                                  Member
                                                                                    Post count: 218

                                                                                    Jim, I feel you brother:) My wife and I have twin girls who are going to be 2 in February. I started my family a little later in life than normal, and after many years of being able to run my own schedule all fall long! Needless to say, it has been a bit of an adjustment:), but well worth it as my girls are a hoot. I think and feel the same thing; they are only this age once, don’t miss it! On the other side of the coin, it is good, healthy, and very necessary for a trad hunter to get out and hunt! It will do your very soul good, you will come home more energized and in better moods, it will provide meat for the family! (feel free to use some of those lines, they work for me:) No really, it can be very hard to find time to actually hunt. I have worked my tail off the last couple of years finding places to hunt and setting up stands for white tails within 30 minutes of home for this very reason. If you look around, I bet you could find something close. I bet your wife would understand and be supportive of you getting out for a morning or an evening hunt once or maybe twice a week during season. I just hate to hear of fellow tradhunters not getting any hunt time, it makes me cringe:) Maybe you need to just load the whole troop up and come on over to South Dakota for a family vacation visiting me and my family (preferably right about the last week in September during season opener) The temps are warm, we can talk the gals into taking the kids out to do late summer things while we get after the deer!

                                                                                    Jans

                                                                                  • James Harvey
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                                                                                      We’re on the same page Jans 😀 Our next trip to the states will be a long one and you may very well get a visit from an obnoxious half Australian, half Kentucky family 😉 I’d certainly love it 😀

                                                                                    • jpcarlson
                                                                                      Member
                                                                                        Post count: 218

                                                                                        Jim, in the infamous words of Doc Holiday, “Say when”:)

                                                                                        Jans

                                                                                      • Col Mike
                                                                                        Member
                                                                                          Post count: 911

                                                                                          Sorry Jans he is coming here first:D And you both are right on you only have the young ones until they are about 10 after that you have either imprinted our lost them to society.:shock:

                                                                                          Happy New year all

                                                                                          Mike

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