The question of weight in our minds

[Troy Breeding]

#7159

I may very well be one of those few that look at things as “thats just not good enough”.

Over the past several months I’m sure alot of you have watched while I have questioned and requestioned what is the best arrow setup.

I’ve shot and tested and shot and tested again. I’ve done the graphs and rechecked everything twice.

So far I’ve managed to find and agree with everything Ed has thrown at me. Even down to the point of saying that my question “what is the point of deminishing return” doesn’t belong with the arrow, but the amount of energy capable of being delivered by the bow…. I think I said that right.

The reason for all this stems from questions I am ask when I talk to other shooters on Dr. Eds findings.

I’ve heard the same statements Ed has heard for years:

“600,700 and 800gr arrows are to heavy to hunt with”

“Thats just to heavy, I can’t shoot that weight”

“Why would you want to shoot an arrow that will arch so much it could hit overhanging limbs”

“That much weight makes my bow shoot too slow”

“Why would I want to shoot an arrow that hevay when I’m already killing everything with my lighter arrows”

“How much deader (if that’s a word) can you get one”

And last but not least,,,,,,

“What the heck you gonna hunt? Elephant?”

It seems to go on and on…..

Along with all the crazy statements and questions, I do at times get one that makes me feel like I might be talking to someone that has enough interest to carry on.

“How much higher arch can I expect when I use a heavy arrow compared to my lighter ones”.

So far I’ve been able to reply “at the average hunting distance (20yds or less) my findings (the same as Eds) have shown that the trijectory of a high FOC arrow is flatter than one of equal weight with low to average FOC”.

Normally after giving this information the next question will be:

“What about those times when I know I can’t get closer and have to reach out and shoot a futher distance”?

Well,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I guess, now have a new quest to follow.

Yea,,,, I know…. I’ve got too much time on my hands….

Troy

[Jason Wesbrock]

#58784

Troy Breeding wrote:

“What about those times when I know I can’t get closer and have to reach out and shoot a further distance”?

Troy,

I’ve heard the same type of question too, and my reaction is always this: unless someone is starving, they don’t “have” to take any shot at a healthy animal. Whenever I hear someone qualify a marginal shot choice by saying something along the lines of “It was the only shot I had” then I immediately know that’s someone with whom I’d prefer not to hunt. There’s a difference between making a bad shot and taking a bad shot. Instead of trying to expect our equipment (and that goes for fast and light arrows as well as slow and heavy ones) to bail us out of dumb decisions, perhaps it would be best to stop making those decisions in the first place.

[Troy Breeding]

#58822

J.Wesbrock wrote: [quote=Troy Breeding]

“What about those times when I know I can’t get closer and have to reach out and shoot a further distance”?

Troy,

I’ve heard the same type of question too, and my reaction is always this: unless someone is starving, they don’t “have” to take any shot at a healthy animal. Whenever I hear someone qualify a marginal shot choice by saying something along the lines of “It was the only shot I had” then I immediately know that’s someone with whom I’d prefer not to hunt. There’s a difference between making a bad shot and taking a bad shot. Instead of trying to expect our equipment (and that goes for fast and light arrows as well as slow and heavy ones) to bail us out of dumb decisions, perhaps it would be best to stop making those decisions in the first place.

The answer to your statement comes down to what someone feels is a ethical shot for them. I’ve shot with fellows that I have no doubt can easily place an arrow where it needs to be at yardages in excess of 40yds.

Do I consider that ethical? For them maybe, for me not a chance, but at 25yds thats a different story. Even 30yds if everything is right.

The reason I started this thread was to bring into question the arch or as some like to put it, drop in the arrow at yardages beyond the average 20yd shot, not what an ethical shot is.

The thought for this thread was for the archer that knows his limits. The one that knows he can put the shot where needed beyond 20yds and has thought about increasing his arrow weight to help should that “oh crap” shot happen. I’ve been ask several times about the arch in the arrow. It seems to be one of the first questions ask after I give the basics behind the heavy high FOC arrow. Number one reason being better flight. Number two being able to still get the penetration if the animal moves on it’s on, reacts to the shot, or even if something unseem causes the arrow to change it’s intended course.

Troy

[Jason Wesbrock]

#58848

Troy,

I understand what you’re saying, and I’m glad you clarified that statement. With respect to the arch of an arrow, of course a heavier arrow will drop more than a lighter one. Newton figured that our hundreds of years ago. So then the question comes down to what an archers feels is acceptable, and how that increased drop will affect his/her accuracy at unknown distances.

My initial thought on that is there’s a reason why top 3D shooters don’t use 12gpp arrows. Then again, hunting with 5gpp arrows probably isn’t a great idea either (assuming a bow can handle them). That probably explains why my arrows average arounf 9gpp.

[Troy Breeding]

#58950

Thanks for complying with the question J.

9GPP in my book is a light arrow. What kind of drop do you have between say 20yds and 40yds?

Troy

[Jason Wesbrock]

#59032

Troy,

I wish I would have seen your question sooner. I just came back from the archery club. I could have shot a 40-yard target for 20 and had a number for you. Without doing that, I can’t give you an exact answer. But I can tell you that my point-on is 40 yards and my gap at 20 yards is 19 inches at the target.

[Troy Breeding]

#59117

Keep it in mind for the next time.

Troy

[Troy Breeding]

#60399

Hopefully the wind and rain will stop in the next few days so I can check the drop on several on my arrows. I’m really interested in knowing how much difference there is between my gap at 20yds out to 40yds.

Troy

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#62293

Troy –

While I haven’t taken it to the extreme that you have, your efforts reinforce my experience. I really see no compelling reason not to go heavy for hunting, and lots of benefits to the things that matter – tuning, flight and penetration.

[Troy Breeding]

#62390

Thats great!!!

Now, if you can take your equipment and see how much drop you have in your arrows. Start shooting at say 20yds, then use the same gap/sight picture you would for 20 and start backing up. If I have my figure right this should tell me how much arch you have above the plain of the 20yds shot when shooting longer distance. Like I said, if I have my figures right. I know that to normally shoot longer distance you would raise your bow slightly but it will give me something to work with.

I need several people to do this to get my figures started.

Troy

[Ed Ashby]

#62393

Bu-bu-bu-but I don’t aim with a gap? 😯

Ed

[wahoo]

#62403

my question — I am shooting several bows that are 53# @ 25 26″ and I have been shooting laminated birch shafts 45-50 spine 125 grn head I leave the arrows full length and they seem to shoot just great. They finish off at 650 grn. Am I too weak of spine ?? These arrows blow right thru deer. Should I go heavier ? I like those shafts because I can stay at the 5/16 diameter but I can go anyway?? Open to suggestions

[Troy Breeding]

#62440

Ed, Ed, Ed,,,,, you still have somesort of sight picture. Use that ol’ hair covered (or maybe not so covered if you happen to be getting hair challeneged) 🙄 computer and atleast give it a try.:P:P

Troy

[Troy Breeding]

#62447

wahoo,

I figure anything between 12-16gpp is a good arrow. You are shooting a tad over 12. You could go heavier. You are right at the bone breaking weight. Alittle heavier wouldn’t hurt.

Troy

[David Petersen]

#62631

Wahoo — While I agree with Troy, if getting “that little bit heavier” head or arrow set-up forces you to change arrows,retune, etc. and you want to stay with your current sticks and you’re hunting nothing bigger or tougher than deer and getting good penetration and recovery, I’d just make sure you’re shooting the best two-blade (and ideally, single-bevel) you can find in 125 grains and keep on keeping on. At 650 grains, you’re at least a hundred grains ahead of most “just deer” hunters today. Of course, there are variables. For instance if you have enough left-over shaft to trim back even half an inch, you can likely up the head weight and gain FOC with the same shafts. Experimentation is fun.

[wahoo]

#62677

just got home from work. Sounds good. I could go to a heavier head and shorten the shafts a little at a time , as DP says could be fun

[Troy Breeding]

#62700

Wahoo,

One word of caution…. Working at something that is fun becomes habit forming.:D

Troy

[wahoo]

#63385

ok guys when I say I hunt deer I am also talking elk. So if I want to go heavier where do I start ?? I have a 3 rivers test set with a bunch of test pts. I have never shot anything but wood so if I use the test set could I not convert that info that I find into woodies without spending a bunch of cheddar??

[Troy Breeding]

#63455

If your shooting 125gr points and leaving your shafts full length, then you have room to spare.

You will have to install a heavier point and see what happens. If your shafts are flying good with 125grs then to see any real change I’d think you woud need to add atleast 50grs.

Adding 50grs to what you have already will give you a heaavy arrow and still only be around 13gpp.

700+grs with your draw length will be a thumping setup.

Troy

[David Petersen]

#63463

Hoodoo, uh, I mean Wahoo 😛 —

If you’re hunting elk, all is changed. If you have to buy new arrows to get the weight and FOC you need, so be it. I feel adamently, via long personal experience, that the Ashby Study is dead-on in it’s recommendation of a minimum of 650 grains total arrow weight, a strong two-blade broadhead (preferably single-bevel) and as much FOC as you can get. This is relatively easy with carbon shafts as they are so light and strong and have such a wide range of spine. My current carbon elk set-up is 791 total weight with CE250 shafts, 225 Tuffhead with 100 insert and 125 adapter for EFOC about 27%. For deer I drop back 75 grains in the point but am still well over the 650 “minimum heavy-bone” busting weight with good FOC. This from bows averaging 53# draw at 28″.

But you are talking wood, and with the release of the 300 Tuffhead and predictably several emulators to follow, I’m anxious to try and get back to wood. So I’m working with Rick “Fletcher” Stillman (The Feathered Shaft) for a test set of light-side Sitka spruce shafts, single-tapered, with 3×3″ A&A feathers, somewhere in the 75-90# spine range. The goal is to hold the weight to 650-700 total with a 300 head and a min. of 20% FOC. Rick, who’s not only a great fletcher but also a mathematician, thinks it’s possible. We’ll soon see, and if anyone here is interested we can share the results.

Bottom line, Wahoo, is that I fear you’ll never get the spine you need for a nearly fool-proof wood elk arrow with your current shafts. While I’d much rather shoot wood and won’t rest until I find the right combo (with the help of innovators like Tuffhead who increasingly are studying Ashby and offering products to help make it possible). But I put max lethality first, as the animals we hunt should always come first, and if it takes carbon shafts to assure that, I’ll shoot carbons. But once again, experimentation is always fun and not necessarily that expensve. (Think about what a single meal out with the family costs, and all the archery gear you could buy and enjoy for years for the price of that one fleeting mediocre meal.) Gotta go now, to beat the damnable time-out monster.

[wahoo]

#7936

I’m with ya on all that was said. It is 40 degrees in Idaho today I will spend all day shooting ( it’s hard being me ) Thanks

[Troy Breeding]

#12583

Well, I finally got a chance to shoot alittle today before getting too cold. This has been the first day in several that the wind wasn’t pushing 25+MPH.

Anyway, before the hands got so cold I started having trouble getting a clean release I was able to compare shots out to 30yds.

I shot enough to know my gap was solid at 20yds. Three arrows in a 3″ dot.

After that I backed off to 25yds. With several more shots I found that my groups were holding with only an approx 6″ drop.

At thirty yards my hands were stating to stiffen and had to take a break for afew minutes. After the break I found that my grouping was still good, but the drop has increased to an average of 14″.

I still got alot of figures to work out, but I think after I do alittle more shooting I will be able to come to some sort of figure as to how much increase in arch there is in my arrows.

Things like how much higher I hold the bow has to be deducted from the drop number.

Troy

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