The "Form" Thread

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#5622

There was some talk about having a thread dedicated to members posting videos of their shooting form, and inviting constructive feedback from the TBM Brain Trust. We have a great talent pool of collective wisdom to draw from on this forum, and I think a thread like this could be educational, for new and old shooters alike.

I guess someone has to be the guinea pig to get it started, so here it goes:

http://youtu.be/2YKVNUsPLlE

A few notes about my shooting form, and things I intentionally do/work on:

– A strong bow arm that I keep elevated after release, but not a tight grip on the bow.

– I anchor middle finger to the corner of my mouth, and it’s “touch and go.”

– I don’t have a static release. I let me hand follow-through, but I strive to keep it traveling in the same plane, and not lift it off my face.

Please feel free to provide feedback, and let’s see your form as well!

[Ralph]

#42977

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=k6lNiSWqRa4

My turn.

Last shot I was trying to follow left to right without letting go of the dang string just cause I had it pulled back. 😀

I this doesn’t work I’ll try again.

Notice my “traditional” belt:?

I’m no competition for Spielberg for sure.

[David Fudala]

#43056

God I wish I was smart enough to get a video on here! I would LOVE to have you guys critique my form!

[Stephen Graf]

#43417

R2 wrote: …

Notice my “traditional” belt:?

I’m no competition for Spielberg for sure…

Kind of like spaghetti straps on a movie star 😯 You are a stud muffin 😳 😀

[Stephen Graf]

#43422

OK, so maybe a little qualifier would help… If you are looking for a critique of your form, then you must have some issue you are trying to work through. Like for me, I seem to be hitting left/right these days. Last year, it was up/down. At least I’m not stuck in a rut!

So what’s the issue boys?

I’ve never posted a video to you tube before, maybe I’ll give it a try, see if I can’t figure it out. Maybe I’ll become an internet sensation! I’m gonna go practice my autographs 🙄

[Ralph]

#43474

Steve, working on two things, consistent anchor and stop throwing bow hand to the right.

I am liable to have two arrows touching in one spot then two touching in another spot a few inches away. I think that’s probably anchor point floating.

Maybe I oughta get some plaid rope for my belt when I go turkey hunting y’spose?

My paunch looks bigger on film than it does when I look at my feet. Darn. 😀

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#43578

R2 wrote:

My paunch looks bigger on film than it does when I look at my feet. Darn. 😀

You’re taking “form critique” to a new level, Ralph.

Steve, good point about being specific in what you’re looking for if you post a vid to this thread.

All in all, I feel pretty good about my form, but there are two things that stick out for me –

1) sometimes I feel like I “rush the shot,” and I should slow down a little more at anchor. On the other hand, when I pause at anchor too long, my release sometimes gets sloppy for some reason. I’m always working on finding that fine balance (for me) between a smooth draw and continuous follow-through, with that extra fraction of a second pause at anchor that makes a difference in my accuracy. I’d love to hear any other perspectives on that.

2) I’m curious what people’s thoughts are on my elbow position. Too high? Not a big deal? I hear some people say that an “in-line” elbow is absolutely critical, yet I’ve seen plenty of examples of world champion target archers who don’t do that, and they are obviously very accurate.

[Ralph]

#43673

OK, archery form only thread Ralphie my boy!!:D

I’m not too unhappy with my form right now either. I’ve been working hard to get back what I had before the TP crap hit me.

That problem, TP, is purely mental so I’m attacking it with concentrating on getting my form back and the rest is coming right along. 😀 Gettin it back, ha, ha, ho, ho, hee, hee. Knock on wood for those who know the expression though!!!!

Feels really good to draw back and hold. Not holding to aim or shoot or anything, if I consciously aim I’m bound to miss, just holding and NOT shooting. You would not believe how hard that can be.

So I be willing to listen to observations. Critique is cool, the chip on my shoulder is about toothpick size, so no prob there.

Judgement, well that comes from another source entirely. 😀

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#43707

So Ralph – I admit that I don’t think I fully understand target panic. When you had TP, how did it manifest itself? Releasing too soon? Lack of accuracy?

I should also add that I think it’s possible to analyze form to death, and “analysis equals paralasis,” as they say. And there’s also obviously no single “correct” way to shoot – just general principles that will take various individual forms.

But I still think it’s interesting to talk about and share info on.

[grumpy]

#43760

Tried the form/video thing with fly fishing a decade ago. We decided we were too old to change, and were doing fine with our terrible form. Not so sure this is a function of age, but more like decades of repetition. Every time we tried to change, everything went south. The consensus was that by the time we were able to cast good with good form, we would be dead.

On the other hand…

If I do not jam my thumb knuckle into that soft spot under my cheek bone, the results are unpredictable. Close doesn’t count.

It helps to take 3 deep breaths prior to drawing, and inhale as you draw. The three breaths calm you and help with focus. Inhaling when you draw is like inhaling as you lift any weight. Muscles don’t work without oxygen. After a while, and it becomes automatic.

The most important thing for me is focus. When I am focused it is like looking down a pipe at the target. Everything else is out of focus. No rational thought, couldn’t tell you if I had a good release, don’t hear or see anything, etc., just me and the target. That is when I get a bulls eye. At most it happens about one third of the time, but it IS getting better.

[Ralph]

#43885

I agree on the “perfect” form analogy. Far as I’m concerned if you make the shot that’s about as perfect as it gets. I’ve been shooting these bows for a long, long time and have seen about a jillion different perfect forms and read about many more (a bit of sarcasm there:)). There’s really only one for everyone and that’s a consistent one of your own.

You gotta have a consistency in form to be consistent in the results of all shots however. Sometimes luck plays a part but if I depended on that I’d be sitting at the computer looking at the foothills through the window that Vegas bought me.

Bruce, short drawing and jerking the string back and throwing bow arm. All that when among a group of people and more so than I thought when I was by myself. I took some video of myself about 6 months ago and said, s..t what happened to you buddy.

Anyway, I’m working on it, not worrying about it (biggest help I think) and going forward knowing that I can do it right. You cannot hit when worrying about the shot. Think where the arrow’s going to go and what you once learned will take over I believe.

Having spoken MHO I’ll be working on anchor and bow arm and quit stinking worrying about.

[Arne Moe]

#44015

Smithhammer,

I’ll try to help. Your shot starts well, I like the downward motion draw — that helps a lot with getting back tension. BUT You are still moving down when you release. Both your bow hand and your string hand are moving downwards as you release. I suggest that releasing during this movement makes it really hard to release at the exact same point every time. See how your string hand pops down then comes back up at release??

Your timing, when it’s on will put a couple arrows into the same spot but I think you find that it is not consistent.

I have no problem with fast shooting BUT you need to establish a consistent “stop” point – every time.

Think about this example I give most of my students. IF your string hand is 1/8th inch different (up, down; left, right; or back and forth) you have an 8 INCH arrow strike difference at 20 yards. Then add in a moving bow hand too! What can you expect??

Achieve a SOLID stopping position that is the same and your inconsistencies will reduce a lot and fairly fast.

Arne

[Arne Moe]

#44021

R2, Ralph,

I would suggest that you pay attention to your bow arm. It is critical that the bow arm remain 90 degrees to your spine. Watch your video again and look at the angle between your bow arm and your spine/torso. You especially drop it when you shoot at the target behind you.

TRY this. Draw on the horizon (the top of the fence?) So your arm is level to the world and not dropped down. Then After reaching full draw, And while maintaining the 90* angle, simply bend at the waist to bring your sight picture down to target.

By simply dropping your bow arm to shoot at a low target, you change your draw length AND put your bow arm and shoulder into a position that causes the bow arm to drop sharply at release. That can also cause the bow shoulder to be pressed up into a weak position. Keep the 90* and see how much more stable your bow arm becomes.

Arne

[Col Mike]

#44033

Wow I learn a lot from this site–thanks Arne. Another thanks to R2 and the hammer for being the guinea pigs.

[Ralph]

#44077

I definitely appreciate the critique Arnie. I need all the constructive criticism I can get.

Thank you. I got more to work on now,:D

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#44081

Arne –

Thank you so much for an excellent observation that I’ve been totally missing. I’ve noticed, when going back and looking at video, that my string hand is moving down upon release, but I couldn’t figure out exactly why, and I wasn’t connecting that to the bigger picture. This is exactly what I was hoping would happen with starting a thread like this.

[David Fudala]

#44237

I gotta wait until I get back home and my daughter (the smarter one of the two of us!) can show me how to do this YouTube thing!:evil:

[David Coulter]

#45357

This is a good thread. Thanks to Smith, R2 & Arne. I’ll try to do one, too, and post it. I know I can use the help! best, dwc

[grumpy]

#62926

Since reading this thread, Audrey keeps saying I have PERFECT form, and won’t shoot herself when I am watching…she has an elbow problem. Looks like a chicken trying to fly. We had a long discussion at the campfire last night, and she decided she didn’t give a #$%^ about form. It was a lot more fun (and more bulls eyes) without worrying about form. “Its not like I’m going to be in some form contest or something.”

[Arne Moe]

#62962

grumpy,

Not exactly sure where you are going with this post. EVERYONE that works on form will generally “loose a few bull’s eyes” as they learn. BUT! invariably, if they stick with it the number of bull’s eyes will increase as they perfect their form.

For many, fun is the name of the game but more bulls will usually equate to more fun.

Arne

[Cladinator]

#63409

Excellent thread. Thanks for starting it up.

As I get more practice I will most likely be putting a video on here myself. I’m too out of practice at the moment to bring on criticism that could probably be avoided with a little time behind the bow.

Thanks for all the great advice already. I’ve learned a lot by just reading several of the other’s critiques.

[Bernie Clancey]

#63844

I am not sure if this is going to work because it is my first attempt to include a youtube video in a post, but here goes:

https://www.youtube.com/my_videos?o=U

Watching yourself on video turns out to be very beneficial. I observed three things that I think are faults with my form. I am not going to tell you yet what they are, so lets see if you see the same things.

It has taken me about three weeks to make the video, convert it, edit it, and get it posted to youtube. My apologies if it is a little long. This stuff is a little challenging for my computer illiterate brain. Thanks for taking a look and offering any constructive criticism.

[Arne Moe]

#63916

Berniebac,

When I click on the link, I just get my own YouTube page not your video. I too struggle with a lot of this stuff. If you are willing to share your Youtube name, maybe I can see your video by doing a search under your name?

It seems that the address you posted is generic and based on the “cookies” we each have on our computers. I get the same home page address that you posted above.

Another thought, If you go to your You tube page, and then click on the video, below the video is an option “share” if you click on the “share” another box will show up with an address in it highlighted in blue. Copy the highlighted blue line then come here and simply paste it.

The address line would look like this: http://youtu.be/yXX5lGTTOeg

I see that YT has changed things again will have to study it more to see what is going on.

Arne

[Arne Moe]

#63918

OPPS. The “share” linked the video, didn’t really mean to do that, just the link. Oh Well, this video was just a couple demo shots I was doing with my Hoyt RX, wasn’t really meant to be instructional.

Arne

[Bernie Clancey]

#64001

Here is the link from the share option as you suggested Arne. Hope this works. If not got to Youtube and search fro Bernie Clancey.

http://youtu.be/w_pt7poEKuc

I guess I linked the video directly into the post as well.

[Arne Moe]

#64048

Bernie,

We got it now! Over all not too bad, but you are doing a few things that makes the shot harder than I think it needs to be.

You are bending over (hunching) to about 20 degrees. This is putting strain on your muscles (lower back and shoulders/neck) that you don’t need. It almost looks like you have a belly ache. You will be more relaxed and have less muscle activation if you stand up straight and hold your head up on top of your spine.

Your draw looks good, although you are getting your string elbow a little low — but that may be a result of the hunched over position.

You are also using a LOT of muscle in the draw. This can be seen by the early shots in the video. Watch your bow shoulder. See how far to the right in the video it stays? It does not move. It needs to move forward towards the bow a little. Don’t let it roll up towards the jaw, just forward a little towards the bow. Think, “I’m levering my shoulders into the bow.”

Your bow arm movement on release, and the string hand pop at release is a function of using muscle rather than bone on bone.

I really think that if you stand up straight, draw to your face ( as you are) you will feel the bow weight actually reduce as the bones take up the load and not the muscles.

You do shoot fast, but that isn’t necessarily a problem IF you are hitting your alignments. Right now, you aren’t, but that is largely a function of your posture more than any thing else.

Let’s keep at this now that you have found the You Tube solution. 😀 You aren’t that far off.

Arne

[Bernie Clancey]

#64090

Arne,

Thanks for that review. I think you nailed it right on. The three things I noticed were 1) my leaning over towards the bow, as if I am chanting my body to match the cant of the bow; 2) I roll my shoulders inwards towards my chest, which shortens my draw length and takes the back muscles out of the draw; 3) I snap shoot and I would prefer a solid anchor and a complete stop at anchor.

After watching the video the first time I tried to stand erect, keep the shoulders straight and concentrate on using back muscles. I found my back muscles aching after a short session so it would seem that I was starting to use them.

I will work on each of the suggestions you made to try to improve knowing that old habits die hard but they can be beat. Thanks again for an excellent review.

[Arne Moe]

#64101

Bernie,

Glad I “rang the bells.” Keep at it and update us often. One change leads to others so it is a progression not a one stop shop.

Arne

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#57414

So I recently have gone back and started re-reading Fred Asbell’s “Advanced Instinctive Shooting” book, and while I’ve read the book several times years ago, some of his form fundamentals just never really clicked with me before, or felt ‘weird’ when I tried them.

But I decided to give it another try, and have been experimenting this past week with a more open, squared shooting stance, bent knees, concentrating instensely on the smallest spot on the target that I can pick out, and really pushing the bowhand to the target. And I have to say that when it all comes together and I’m doing my part consistently, I’m attaining good back tension more easily, my elbow isn’t as high on the draw, and I’m getting some of the tightest groups I’ve ever shot.

Anyone else shoot this way?

[Col Mike]

#57730

Bruce–Yes, although I leave out the bent knees as I shoot a lot kneeling or sitting (as in hunting). That concentration part is the key–now if I could just get a little more zen into it I could solve that issue:shock:

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#57804

Mike – I hear ya. I don’t know why I insist on shooting sometimes, when I’m clearly not in the right frame of mind and able to concentrate. It’s obvious immediately. But I just love shooting too damn much!

One benefit in regards to hunting that I’m noticing as I become more comfortable with shooting with a more open stance, forward orientation is that it has benefits when I’m sitting/kneeling and hunting as well. Rather than always having to find spots where I orient myself sideways, and then I’m continually looking over my shoulder for things that might be coming at me to my left, I can sit/kneel more forward now, and have better peripheral vision to both sides, if that makes sense.

[Stephen Graf]

#59414

Smithhammer wrote: …Anyone else shoot this way?

I tried it but what I found is that over time I got sloppier and my draw length got shorter. It worked at first, cause I think it was novel and made it easier to concentrate… I do use most of what he says though, just not all the time and not to the extreme he shows in the pictures.

I don’t shoot with a closed stance either. I guess I would say I shoot with an open-ish stance. I like to think I can shoot no matter what the requirements are, as long as it’s a 15 or 18 yard shot…

I don’t shoot recurve much though. So for longbow, it’s important to keep the elbow broken, heel down, bow canted, head tilted forward over arrow, string elbow in line with the arrow, hand against face. Whatever position allows me to do this, is what works.

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#59904

Agreed. I think that I had gotten into a ‘rut’ when practicing of having a very static, target-archer stance – completely sideways, and with my bow pretty much vertical. I didn’t even realize it until I started watching pics and vids of my form lately.

What Asbelle’s tips have reminded me of are varying my stance without letting it affect the shot, getting my upper body/head into the shot, and canting my bow more. All things I know, but had let slip by the wayside in favor of bad habits.

Another thing I’ve been focusing on – when I draw, letting my middle finger do most of the work (I shoot split). This helps keep me from torqueing the string, and keeping my elbow more level.

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#42843

I thought this was an interesting comparison of longbow grip styles – subtle maybe, but certainly different.

Howard Hill’s grip:

Notice how Howard has all four fingers in contact with the grip. Also note his thumb position, and 2nd knuckle alignment.

Now look at Byron Ferguson’s grip:

Byron has a more relaxed grip, and his fingers are not wrapped as much around the grip as Howard’s. He also seems to be applying little, if any, pressure to the bow with his lower fingers. Compare knuckle aligmnent with Howard’s as well.

Notably different grip styles. Howard also famously preferred a straight bow grip, Ferguson prefers more of a shallow dished grip.

One thing is clear though – they are both applying significant heel pressure.

Another interesting thing to note – look at their string elbow position at full draw. 😉

[Stephen Graf]

#42970

Another difference is that Howard’s bow has no shelf, and thus he is shooting off the knuckle…

Howard’s description of how he holds the bow is that he said you pick it up like a suitcase. So his hand is more on the side of the bow.

I think Byron puts the weight of the bow against the life line in his palm. That’s how I do it too. I never could get used to holding the bow on the side. It puts a lot of stress on the thumb when you do it that way. Basically the whole weight is against your thumb then. I can shoot well that way, for about 4 shots. Then it’s over.

Not sure what to make of their string arm elbows. I think both these fellows could benefit from some lessons 🙄

It just goes to show, there is no one right way. For myself, so far I’ve only managed to find a bunch of wrong ways 😳

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#43034

Steve Graf wrote:

Not sure what to make of their string arm elbows. I think both these fellows could benefit from some lessons 🙄

Clearly. 8)

An interesting link:

http://www.dickwightman.com/howardhill/hillgrip/hillgrip.html

[Author]

Posts