Home › Forums › Campfire Forum › Technology Kills Tradition?
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At what point in feet per second, if it were possible via new, as yet unknown manufacturing techniques and materials, to build a traditional styled bow (be it long, recurve, hybrid, etc.) that could cast a 600 grain arrow as fast as you wanted, would it become unethical to use that bow?
In other words, when does the term “traditional archery” become invalidated by technology… even if the bow looks “traditional”?
Is that possible?
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I don’t think ethical is necessarily the right word you want to use here.
If you are comparing speed vs. ethics than you are basically labeling compound shooters (as a whole) unethical. That simply isn’t the case. Hunting ethics are hunting ethics no matter what gear you use.
It seems like the debate is whether the bow would still be considered traditional or not – and we all know how objectively that term is defined.
Personally…as long as you are shooting with your fingers, using some kind of instinctive aiming system, and your bow is not mechanically aided – it is traditional. I am not a fan of risers made of anything but wood and glass, but I do not condemn their use.
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I like Limblover’s answer too — except for the last sentence. No way can I consider the extreme technology involved in cams, pulleys, let-off, stabilizers, sights, trigger-releases … and all the endless techno-BS that goes with these arrow-launching machines as “traditional.” But Limb’s opinion of course is as good as my own. Bottom line I’d really love a trad-only archery season where we didn’t have to compete with modern machines of any type. Not speed, not ethics, but a strong personal wish that “traditional” and “primitive” seasons live up to their names. Snuffy
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Snuffy, my last sentence was still directed towards the traditional bow – not a compound.
I specifically had metal-riser bows in mind like the Quinns, Hoyt Gamemaster, DALAA, etc.
If it doesn’t have wheels, mechanical aids, or fancy sites, I am fine with it. I too would like to see a traditional only hunting season.
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Here is my two cents for whatever its worth. Today I spent a moment reminiscing over Jay Massey and his influential writings. He eloquently talked about Saxton Pope and Art Young and he talked about our “ancient” sport we are blessed to be a part of. I believe he would definitely say that technology does kill tradition. Let us all remember that the art of traditional bowhunting is an ancient endeavor and we should not compromise its beautiful and simplistic principles. All of the modern garbage( yes I called it garbage) is down right disrespectful to the very essence of our wonderful ancient lifestyle. Please do not try to water it down by using today’s technology, that has proven to me to be severely lacking in substance anyway. WE ARE TRADITIONAL ARCHERS, BOWMEN,if you will. Why would we think we are anything less? There is tremendous beauty in this timeless tradition, today’s technology is severely lacking in comparison to what our true predecessors intended. Okay, enough of that but really, come on! Buck up! We are not supposed to compromise our timeless principles, you know? As a dear friend of mine once said, “Go Big or Go Home.” Stay true to the game. :!::D
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Hmmm.. the debates on what is and what isn’t may take on may points of view. For the most part I liked Limblover’s answer. But I have to question. How is “Instinctive” considered “Traditional”. Does that mean “Point On” and “Gap” is not Traditional. Some folks like me and as stated by Ron LaClair use all three methods in their shooting, whatever is warranted at the time. I remember lots of longbows from yesteryear – 40’s, 50’s, 60’s that had manufactured or self made sight pins on them. I forget exactly which, but there is a picture of a Sterling Silver plated recurve from Persia that is 5000 years old, in one of the volumes of the Traditional Bowyers bible.
To myself and many of us, nothing has more character, soul and spirit than wood. Amen to that. I am there too. With very deep feeling and connection that we all share. But to those who like the Trad Tech Hybrids, they are beautiful in their own way. The arrow may sit on a rest, on a metal riser, but the ‘traditional” skills required are still necessary. Anybody remember the Bear 76’er? 8)
No wheels, No Cables – It’s all cool! 8)
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During the last several weeks, I have been shooting 99.9% instinctive with the Bear Kodiak recurve. Prior to that it was all with the modern mechanical wonder with fiber pins and a peep sight. Over time my eyes have been getting worse and my pins blured out, and the only modern help was a lense in the peep sight.
Now, lets jump up two weeks.
As of Friday the 21st, that of course all ended, as I now enjoy nothing but instinctive shooting, and can not wait for my longbow that is not a hybred.
My daughter in law and I were shooting yesterday and she watched as I nailed the bullseye in two instinctive shots with arrows touching. She asked, “Dad how did you do that?” and loved my answer. I told her that, because I decided to shoot instinctive, I have to reley on the same consistancy for each shot. I can not use sight pins any longer and so I must resort back to a very traditional way of shooting. Its simple, it works and the results are there on the target. I shoot everyday, several times during the day at the house to keep up on my traditional shooting skills.
I love LimbLovers answer, as well as Dave’s and feel the same about a “Traditional Only Season” but that would cause such a sepertist stir amoung the ranks of bowhunters across any state, that only one who owns such a large land mass could make it his rule, for those who wished to hunt there could control. I myself would thrive in a “Traditional Only” area.
Sorry if I got off track here, but I’ve come to really dislike the modern wonder bows.
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SteveMcD wrote: But I have to question. How is “Instinctive” considered “Traditional”. Does that mean “Point On” and “Gap” is not Traditional.
Definitely not. I’m talking sites. IMO, point on and gap style shooting is instinctive as well. Its all the same thing IMO. But..I’m not going into that because it is a completely different argument.
It is one component of may components in MY definition of what I think is traditional. It isn’t the ONLY component. lol
I admire the “Go Big or Go Home” spirit. I feel it ensures that a line is not crossed and that the primitive spirit is not lost with time and technology. Unfortunately, the location of the line is far too blurry. Many would tell me I’m not traditional because I shoot a glass-backed bow with a shelf and carbon arrows. I find that to be silly. The power is coming from my body, the placement of the
arrow from my eye, the passion from my heart.Technology will not kill the traditional spirit if we do not allow it to do so. I feel we do that through encouragement of the primitive ways, not by setting boundaries and assigning labels.
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I think Limbsaver is pretty much on point. “Traditional” today really just separates compounds from recurve/longbows. You would have to shoot homemade bows, arrows, and stone tips to approach anything close to “ancient”.(Just my opinion, but I consider that more of a stunt in todays world) Even Jay Massey, who I admire in spades used glass in the bows he made and steel on the business end of his arrows, and unless I’m mistaken, Fred Bear used a fiberglass arrow lined with an aluminum arrow to shoot his elephant out of a glass backed bow. Were they traditional? Of course they were. IMO, no matter what style aiming, or what your bow and equipment is made of, if you are shooting a recurve/longbow, you are “traditional”. Technology will continue to close the gap between traditional equipment and compounds in terms of speed, but if you look back at the speeds of yesterday and today, the traditional bows have gained about 40fps, and the compounds well over 100fps.It’s just the world we live in.
Use what you want. If it’s legal, you won’t hear me tearing it down. Our sport can’t afford to be separated any more than it is already. -
“Technology will not kill the traditional spirit if we do not allow it to do so. I feel we do that through encouragement of the primitive ways, not by setting boundaries and assigning labels.”
Well said…Forces me to ponder my previous post. While I do not subscribe to the big tent theory, (which is basically we all must stick together on this thing) I have come to realize that being somewhat judgmental and assigning certain labels does nothing for anyone and does not promote acceptance. Interesting…
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T Downing wrote: [i]”Well said…Forces me to ponder my previous post. While I do not subscribe to the big tent theory, (which is basically we all must stick together on this thing) I have come to realize that being somewhat judgmental and assigning certain labels does nothing for anyone and does not promote acceptance. Interesting…”
I do partially agree with that principle! Its just too challenging to start a newbie off that way. Traditional archery as a whole is CHALLENGING!! Shooting a selfbow with wooden arrows is the MOST challenging.
I just started in May and it took months for me to get consistent form down with modern gear. Had it been primitive gear I may have given up in frustration!
I started out with modern gear and am working my way to the old ways as I progress. Had it not been for a few key people in my life and forums/magazines like Traditional Bowhunter I wouldn’t know that people seriously hunt with primitive equipment.
So…I think the answer is to view it as levels of challenge. If we deliver primitive bowhunting as the ultimate challenge – it is going to be a lot more appealing – almost like a dare!!!
Its all in the packaging. Had someone told me I wasn’t traditional because I didn’t shoot a selfbow – I would have labeled them as an elitist snob and would have a bad taste in my mouth. Yep…we all know people do that.
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LimbLover wrote: I don’t think ethical is necessarily the right word you want to use here.
If you are comparing speed vs. ethics than you are basically labeling compound shooters (as a whole) unethical. That simply isn’t the case. Hunting ethics are hunting ethics no matter what gear you use.
It seems like the debate is whether the bow would still be considered traditional or not – and we all know how objectively that term is defined.
Personally…as long as you are shooting with your fingers, using some kind of instinctive aiming system, and your bow is not mechanically aided – it is traditional. I am not a fan of risers made of anything but wood and glass, but I do not condemn their use.
well said
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Limblover, I must clarify that I don’t shoot selfbows, never have. Like you, I shoot glass backed recurves and longbows now for 20 years. And my wood arrows have always been made for me. That said, I have a difficult time with some of the metal and machined riser bows that are being used today. This comment alone is somewhat of a slippery slope because like some of the excellent prior posts have talked about, it is difficult to define what really is traditional…
It has always been about wood bows for me, even if there is some modern day fiberglass in them. :D:D -
Mr Downing, I submit to you that: The epoxies used to make your wood bows is far more technological based in a chronologic order (based on time)than the forging of aluminum.The definiton of Traditional is not how I define myself or my principals. If you would like to wear the title and T-shirt, might I suggest you shoot equipment made prior to the compound era, or at least technology based materials to not be hypocritical in your belief toward aluminum risers. RECURVE Bows do not make cool! They do not afford me more challenge than a compound! They are simply the best system for me to hunt with. I shoot them better, they are more versatile, they are more reliable and weigh less. Wood is not the defining principle of a traditional archer anyway, ethics are!
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Hiram, one of the wonderful things about this site is we can respectfully disagree, as I do with you. I believe that Recurve Bows do make cool! Even though I am currently in love with Longbows, I am definitely qualified to have my own thoughts and opinions concerning aluminum risers. As is every tradbow member. I understand and acknowledge your comments concerning the chronological order of technological materials. That said, I don’t believe that these metal bows reflect any romance or tradition that I alluded to in my earlier posts. You can call me hypocritical if you like, perhaps you have a point. But you know what, I don’t care, I have been called worse! I agree with you about the importance of traditional ethics and you misunderstood my comments about wood. Hopefully to clarify, technology in traditional archery is a very gray area and we all have the right to view it the way we want to. For me, wood bows (yes, with modern glue.etc) are far more traditional in nature than a aluminum, machined bow that resembles a modern day compound without the cables and cams. Lastly, I inspire to be as ethical as possible in this endeavor but I don’t believe that it is the defining principle. One of the definitions of tradition states: “the handing down of information, beliefs, and customs by word of mouth or by example from one generation to another without written instruction.” While ethics are a part of this definition, so is history, experience, etc. We can respectfully agree to disagree. God Bless, T
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Mr. Downing, Thank you for your point! Taken and respected equally. The “One string” is the nature of the system, no lrt off, no eccentrics. Your reference made to their association as such is out of context! Fred hunted with, and used aluminum risers, so do many of us today. The material is not the determiner, the system is! Alienation through the “elitest” attitude, not so much by yourself, but by many, is the detractor that divides the definitions, and will also enable separatists to hold onto their aloofness. I submit that the material our equipment is made of, is not the definition of a one string.Ethics, mindset,methodology, and what you contribute back into the pot, is what sets the forward to longevity of traditional ways, furtherance, and success of traditional Bowhunting. Not whether or not I hold aluminum or wood in my hand.
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First I must say that it saddens me that there seems to be an insurmountable divide between “traditional” archers and those who use bows with “support wheels”.
Personally I dont feel glas/carbon/epoxy is part of “traditional archery” (I have recently changed my mind on this point). But, I also dont think the word “traditional” serves us very well…what is innovative today will be traditional tommorow.
Note: I own several selfbows, selfvmade laminated bows, a glas/wood short recurve and a compound. My favorite by far is the glass recurve…but I love everything that can launch an arrow.
Cheers
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What if the cams on the compound were made of wood and the string and “cables” were made of sinew? 😆
I guess I’m a bit different. If someone who shoots a selfbow, makes his or her own wood arrows and/or broadheads says I’m a wuss and not really traditional, my response would be…”You’re right”. Compared to that person, it’s true.
I switched from a compound 3 years ago and the fact is, if I would’ve had someone say that I’m not shooting a real bow back then, I probably would’ve had the same response, “You’re right”. Ironically, even when I was shooting a compound, I’d stated NUMEROUS times that I wish compounds couldn’t be used for bowhunting as it would get alot of pretenders out of the woods.
I don’t mind that everyone has a different opinion of what is traditional. It would be boring if everyone thought the same. And yes…technology kills. 😉
I reluctantly gave my son’s compound to one of his friends who never owned or shot a bow before. I had considered incinerating it :lol:. Instead, I tell him if he maintains an interest he can step up to a real bow. Now, he DESPERATELY wants a longbow like ours (my son and I). Pyschology 101. 😀
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Well said, Patrick! I could jump back in here again but I won’t, as you guys are covering all the angles and views quite thoroughly, and better yet civily with mutual respect, no matter disagreement. I agree that what a person chooses for equipment should be what brings that person the most pleasure and satisfaction. Technology, materials … none of it matters — until we come to hunting season allocation and equity in an increasingly overcrowded hunting world with shrinking habitat and happy hunting grounds. That’s where it matters a great deal. dave
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It’s all so personal, isn’t it? My first bow was a Shakespeare Kaibab in 1982, wood and glass. And the fist full of arrows my uncle handed me were aluminum. Amazingly, they shot straight and true, although he just dug them out of an old box in his garage after I proudly showed him my new bow- tuning indeed! So now when shooting my Bear Montana with my Easton Heritage arrows I am a traditional archer. My tradition. To bad I can’t tune as easily…..
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WoW, very interesting thread…….I’m kinda wondering though what would you fellas call this bow and how would you classify it?
It’s a takedown with an Elk antler riser with all natural limbs made of bamboo with Ipe and purpleheart cores, with buffalo horn tips…. it does not take a set or lose any weight even after being left strung all day long, I recieved this bow as a gift 10 days ago from a fellow I’ve been helping with tips and trick about building these risers, and it is very impressive, and very fast too, and hangs right in there with fast glass lamb bows, but it is all natural…….so, What do you say?
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no wheels=”traditional”
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I like it a LOT.
The Persians, Chinese and Mongols all used horn in their bows ?000’s of years ago so it must be traditional.
That is an extraordinarily beautiful bow, did you take the elk.
Mark.
When technology has moved on we will be left with traditional, and a huge pile of last years models:D. -
No Mark, I didn’t… sure wish I did though, maybe one of these day I’ll realize that dream, but I want to do it with a friend that lives in Elk country somewhere and not a guide…….I’m fixing to send James two of my uncut impregnated Elk risers to experiment with ,but he provided this one………
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Voodoo — Please tell us more about your impregnated antler risers! I presume this strengthens antler enough to take the intense pressures exerted on a bow handle. And I presume it would be fairly heavy? Congrats to both you and the unnamed bowyer you’re working with. Gorgeous! Snuffy
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Snuffy wrote: Voodoo — Please tell us more about your impregnated antler risers! I presume this strengthens antler enough to take the intense pressures exerted on a bow handle. And I presume it would be fairly heavy? Congrats to both you and the unnamed bowyer you’re working with. Gorgeous! Snuffy
DOH! my bad….. His name is James Parker and he won bow of the year with one of his creations in a primitive archery mag.
and yes impregnating antler does add a bit of weight, but it’s nothing objectionable, and they are very, very strong, the strongest Elk bow I’ve built so far has been 62″ and 111#’s at my 30″ draw length and it has a 13 1/2″ riser .. and I drove my lifted 4 door Explorer over my first completed Elk riser suspended between 2 concrete blocks, it suffered only a couple very minor scratches, and with over 4 years of use and over 15,000 shots ‘ol #1 is still going strong….. and just to let everyone know, I’m not taking orders and I haven’t taken an order in over a year. I’m still behind from when I did, they aren’t easy to build…… -
Look awesome Voodoo
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Voodoo – I say WOW! That is a beautiful bow! Traditional or not, that is a thing of beauty.
I like this kind of thread. There is NO RIGHT ANSWER.
I personally find it amusing that people will degrade and refuse to hunt with someone based on their choice of weapon (or what it’s made of) rather than their choice of ethics and morals.P.S. IMO, Yes, it’s traditional. 8)
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What part of the antler is that, VD? Basal portion of main beam? I have mammoth ivory tips on one of my Shrews, and antler tips and handle inlays from an elk I killed on another of my Shrews (I now have three of the lovely little artworks but don’t tell the wife, please). The only place in life I’m superstitious is hunting, and for that reason I feel good about having a personal touch of some sort on all my bows, even those I don’t build myself. The best of course would be to grow your own osage (or whatever) tree to build the bow from then trim it with antler you either killed or picked up (sheds) yourself. And, as Patrick might add/ask, a bowstring made from dental floss used long ago by the highschool girlfriend you still fantasize about? 😛 Beat you to that one, eh P?) But seriously, I’d love to have a closer look and feel the heft of this unique antler handle. dp
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Bloodless, I have no Idea what Mr. Parker used in this one, but I’ll be doing all the risers in the future and he will be building the natural limbs and I’ll still do my own glass ones but my risers have a special epoxy forced in under pressure then heated to cure, it gets hard but not brittle, and has zero flex…
Mr Peterson, there is one out in Colorado,… I did it for Mr. Don Tayon, with a lower main beam from an Elk he shot himself ,I also built him a couple cool knives with the tines he sent…. I kinda figured the western fellas that hunt Elk a lot would be all over a bow like this,surely they shoot more than one Elk, after they have it mounted what do they do with the others?…. so far he’s the only one to shoot his own and have an antler from it made into a bow……heck I don’t even know if he shoots it, I’m thinking it may just hang on the wall as I haven’t heard a word from anyone out there who’s seen it, and when one of these gets into an area, I usually hear about it….
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