Ready to give FOC a try…Recommendations?

[shag]

#5173

Hey folks. I think I’m ready to give FOC a try. I’m needing some arrows and field points at the moment. But theres no place local that caters to the traditional archer so I’m going to have to place a special order though somewhere. Since I’m having to order anyways, I figured I’d try to set everything up right…where it packs as much punch as possible.

Currently, I’m shooting full length CarbonExpress Heritage 250’s. With the standard 12 gr inserts and 125 gr head with 3, 5 in fletchings and the standard CX nock. They fly like darts but seem just ever so slightly weak spined. I am very accurate with them though.

The bow is a Black Widow SA…60″ 56# @ 27″. Which is my draw so that should be spot on.

Could someone more knowledgable than myself in the way of FOC please point me in the right direction? I’d love to have an arrow recommendation and point/insert weight opinions. Thanks alot.

Brandon

[Dan Jackowiak]

#37936

Brandon, I’m not sure what the shelf cut is on that bow but according to Stu Millers spine calculator, using +1/8 for the shelf cut, those arrows are a little weak just like you said. It says that if you took a Goldtip 7595 Black XTHunter and cut it to 29″, added a 50gr insert and either a 175 gr or 200 head you would hit 22% foc with an overall arrow weight of 530grs with the 200gr head. If you used an ICS Hunter shaft instead the weight would come in around 550grs with an foc of 21%.

Your set up right now weighs 511grs with 11% foc.

Now this is a starting point and not set in stone, but I do find the calculator to be fairly close. At least close enough to get started and tune from there.

[David Petersen]

#38650

Brandon — I’m confused about your 250s being underspined with that light point weight. I shoot the same shafts cut to 29.5″ which I presume is longer than yours, so spine is relatively lighter. Up front I have 450 grains total, and they fly perfectly from my 53# bows. Numbers aside for a moment, you didn’t say what you are hunting. If deer and pigs will be the biggest critters, you don’t need nearly as much as for elk, etc. (of course). My standard advice is to go for arrow weight first and FOC second. Dr. Ashby recommends a minimum 650 grains to assure penetration with heavy bone impact. And of course you have to have a head strong enough to carry that through. My “closest to perfect so far” carbon setup starts with a Tuffhead and all steel or brass internals. (Tuffies come in 190, 225 and 300 grains, all glue-on so you’ll have to add adapters.) I prefer 4×3″ fletch as they weigh a tad less than 3×5″ thus add a bit to FOC, while being quieter and less affected by rain. But that’s the least of the combo. In sum I’d say first to figure the max weight you’re comfy shooting, then try to get as much of that weight up front for FOC, behind a good strong two-blade head. One shooter’s opinion …

[Troy Breeding]

#38707

I have to agree with Dave on concern of the 250’s beening weak in spine.

You may verywell be seeing a tail weak fight that is being caused by banking off the sight window.

Troy

[shag]

#38944

Hey folks. Thanks for all the responses and useful information. I need all the help I can get and I really appreciate it.

2blade, I think the bow is cut 3/16 (.1875) past center. I also have a toothpick behind the strike plate. Its funny you should mention the Gold Tip 7595’s. The local sporting goods store actually had some in stock last weekend. I figured I would give them a try since the CX’s seemed to be a little weak. So I bought a couple. They came fletched with blazer vanes. I brought them home and whittled those vanes off. I left them full length and put a 12 gr insert in them (all they had that would fit) and tipped them with 150 gr field points. I bare shaft tested them through the Widow and they shot extremely over spined. However, since I already them, I tried that combo through my old longbow and it LOVED them. I threw some fletchings on them and it liked them even move. I know that isn’t the point weight combo you specified for the BW but at least the longbow likes em and there was no money wasted on that set up.

Dave, I’m shooting the Carbon Express Heritage 250’s at full length (32 inches I think). Its what came with the bow when I got it. It seemed to like them so I hated to go to hacking on them. But, if I’m correct, I could cut them down to stiffen the spine if need be. I’ve got at least 2 1/2 inches I could cut them down before it came into the riser. I do have two bare shafts with no inserts that I can try out new combos on. I’ll just be hunting whitetails with it here around home. I may take it to WY to hunt some pronghorn this fall. Although I have toyed with the idea of taking it to canada on a black bear hunt. But that’ll be a year or two in the future.

Troy, you may be on to something there. It does seem like I have got a little bit too much wear on the strike plate. When I went to check that I also noticed that my shelf plate was wearing too much at the back. I don’t know how I have managed to overlook that issue til now. But the nocking point issue is now corrected. I just got done bare shaft testing it with the 250’s again. It seems the nock problem may have been part of the problem (thats possible, right?) with the arrow showing a weak spine, as it did show much better and straighter on the target. How would I correct the banking off the sight window though?

I think what I’m going to do is try to stick with the Heritage 250’s. I’m going to place an order for some 100 gr brass inserts and 200 gr field points and go from there. Do you think that plan may work? Should I try more weight? Thanks alot guys.

[Dan Jackowiak]

#39222

I think what I’m going to do is try to stick with the Heritage 250’s. I’m going to place an order for some 100 gr brass inserts and 200 gr field points and go from there. Do you think that plan may work? Should I try more weight? Thanks alot guys.

I think that will end up being to weak but if it is you can always build out the strike plate.

[Troy Breeding]

#39811

Shag,

If possible try working your way up in point weight. It’s hard to say what will work best for you. No two shooters are alike.

In my case (55#@ 29″ draw, with sight window cut to 3/16″ past center) a 250 with 160 up front and standard alumium insert shoots great out of my ACS or recurve when left full length.

Now that I’ve built out my sight window I have to increase the point weght quite a bit.

Troy

[shag]

#39884

Hey guys,

I just placed an order through 3Rivers for their field point test kit. That will give me up to 250 gr to play with. I’m going to try that with the standard inserts for the time being. I’ll let you know how it goes. Thanks alot for the help.

Brandon

[wolfkill220]

#40187

Check out three rivers archery they have trial packs of arrows and tips that you can order .Whats nice is you get diff weight tips so you can try diff weight tip and arrow combos find what works then order that.

[shag]

#42841

Well the jury is in. I got my field points today and got to play with them a little bit.

At first I tried the Carbon Express shafts with various weights all the way up to 250 gr. It really didn’t seem to like any of them. I’m thinking I may have to cut them down in length from full shaft to find something that may work out a little better. What do yall think?

Next I tried the Gold Tip Hunter 7595’s. I didn’t even fool around with various weights on them. I figured they wouldn’t work anyways so I just put the 250 gr points on for ha-ha’s. I’ll be damned if they didn’t fly like darts and hit the mark just perfect. The penetration with such a light weight, heavy spined shaft with 261 gr up front was impressive.

This set up comes out to be a 551.5 gr arrow with 22.5% FOC.

Does this sound acceptable? I’m completely at the mercy of the recommendations yall give me. I’m new to all this and I’m rather clueless to the do’s and dont’s to FOC. Thanks alot guys.

-Brandon

[Dan Jackowiak]

#42885

I think its acceptable, especially for deer sized game, but I would be using brass inserts and not the standard aluminum in a finished arrow. The brass inserts really toughen up that part of the shaft. I’ve had heads break before that section of the shaft does when using brass.

[shag]

#42892

Thats a good point 2blade. I think I can get some 50 gr brass inserts from 3rivers. I could use some 200 gr points then. I may go ahead and get some shaft footings too just to toughen it up a little more.

In all honesty though…Do you think I should try another set up? Like I said, I’m all ears for other recommendations. I’m new at all of this. I really appreciate your help 2blade. You have laid in here with me throughout the whole foc process.

[shag]

#42903

2blade,

After reading through the posts again, you pretty much hit the arrows and correct point weight through my bow SPOT ON. I could probably cut the GT’s down like you said and be even better off. You and your calculator know your stuff. Thanks again. When I go bear or elk hunting next year I’ll be pestering you again so keep the calculator handy lol.

Brandon

[Dan Jackowiak]

#42922

Brandon,

If you are going to cut those arrows go a 1/4″ at a time then test, test, test and test some more. No way to add length once its gone. An external footing will stiffen the spine a little as well.

I think that arrow is more than acceptable for black bear. I’ve never hunted em, would like to, but I hear they are easy to kill, the only problem being the fat has a tendency to close the hole so blood trails can be sparse. Grizz would be a different story i think.

Dan

P.S. Almost forgot, I could get you to about 28% foc I think, would require a different arrow tho. Weight wouldn’t change much.

[shag]

#43892

Dan,

Ah, Grizz. I don’t plan to hunt any grizzly bears, pilgrim. Not even to collect the claws. They are way out of my price range and I really have never had the desire.

I think I will just leave the Gold Tips as they are. No need to cut down something thats seems to be working. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it. Although I will add the brass inserts and shaft footings before I take that set up to the woods. But I’m gonna stick with the same weight up front.

28 % FOC…you have sparked my interest. I’m gonna have to buy more arrows no matter which route I choose. I’ve just got two of the GT’s now. What do you have in mind? That sounds like a pretty good number. Thanks again for the help.

Brandon

[Dan Jackowiak]

#44074

Brandon,

Victory VForce HV, I use V6 in 300 spine. These shafts are pretty light so they’re not quite as tough as as the XT’s. But I have found that if you use 100gr inserts, you’ll have to any way, it toughens em up immensely. Same story when you do that as the xt’s and 50gr inserts, the head breaks before the shaft usually does… well at least Concordes do. Yesterday I busted 1/4″ of tip off an Abowyer Brown Bear, arrow is fine. 😯

Full length, 31″, 100 gr insert and 225gr head gets me 28% foc with 4″ feathers on back. I can shoot 2″ or 3″ feathers as well and notice no difference in flight. Over all arrow weight is 560grs.

Dan

[shag]

#48668

Dan,

That sounds like a sweet set up. I’ve got to go to the sporting goods store tomorrow. I’m gonna check to see if they have any in stock so I can give that a try. Even if they don’t, I’ll probably place an order for some. They are very reasonably priced from what I have seen.

For some reason I started having terrible issues trying to tune any arrow through the Black Widow. I thought everything was going great…then the bottom fell out. I think its all just me. But I have put it up for a few days to keep from getting mad and stressed out. I have been shooting my little Hoyt Dorado the past few days just to stay in practice with my form. But I had to lay off the arrow tuning with the widow….it started driving me crazy.

Thanks alot for all the help. I know I’ll get it right eventually with the help and suggestions.

Brandon

[Dan Jackowiak]

#48750

I usually pick mine up off ebay or this place

http://www.cdsarchery.com/Archery/arrows-Victory.html

they went up 7 bucks a dozen from last year. Good thing I have 2 dozen untouched shafts in my inventory 😀

You’ll get it together eventually, Brandon. Any questions along the way let me know.

Dan

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