Questions about my bareshaft tuning today.

[Crystalshrimp]

#2870

I was tuning my new setup today: Beman ICS Camo Bowhunters 300’s (10.1gpi)

Following the steps one by one that i ran across in one of the threads posted my Ed.

I shot Olympic style (Bow Verticle) and cut down my shaft accordingly. Then afterwards I shot my bow with a cant and noticed that I consistantly shot to the right, 5 or so inches when my bow was verticle and Shot 5 or so inches to the left. What Gives? I ended up with a perfect flight at 20yds but can not come up with any answers as to why my arrow took this flight. Any ideas why this happened? Why the difference shooting Verticle vs. Canted. MY Groups were consistant and tight. I shot verticle as instructed and noticed this.

[Jason Wesbrock]

#14076

That’s one of the main reasons why I always reccomend people tune how they shoot. Why tune a bow by shooting it with a style you don’t otherwise intend to use? For some people, shooting canted and vertical isn’t an issue. For others it is. Byron Ferguson actually makes mention of his point of impact shifting depending on his degree of cant, and he definately knows how to shoot a bow.

Best suggestion: tune it how you shoot it. If the up/down/left/right seems confusing with a canted bow, simply draw crosshairs on your target and cant it to match your bow — problem solved.

The Easton Tuning Guide (available as a free online download) is an excellent technical how-to resource. It’s the gold standard for a reason. For a version of the Easton guide explained in a different format, Adcock’s page provides another excellent tutorial.

[Troy Breeding]

#14119

I’d think we will need more info. If I read what you wrote right the shaft bearshafted clean. Then after you fletched the shaft it shot right when you canted the bow and left when you shot vertical. Am I correct?

If so, then you missed something in bareshafting or changed your shooting form after fletching the arrow.

Troy

[Ed Ashby]

#14195

Troy Breeding wrote: I’d think we will need more info. If I read what you wrote right the shaft bearshafted clean. Then after you fletched the shaft it shot right when you canted the bow and left when you shot vertical. Am I correct?

If so, then you missed something in bareshafting or changed your shooting form after fletching the arrow.

I’m assuming these are shots with your field points, correct? What FOC were the bare shafts? When you finished the bare shaft testing did you shoot fletched shafts and bare shafts to compare their point of impact, relative to each other? If so, were they impacting together at that time?

Ed

[Crystalshrimp]

#14335

[quote=Dr. Ed Ashby][quote=Troy Breeding]I’m assuming these are shots with your field points, correct? What FOC were the bare shafts? When you finished the bare shaft testing did you shoot fletched shafts and bare shafts to compare their point of impact, relative to each other? If so, were they impacting together at that time?

Ed[/quote
(29″ Beman ICS C2 Camo Hunters @ 10.1 gpi. W/100grn. insert and a 250grn. fieldtip)
All shots with bareshaft and 100grn. insert and a 250grn. fieldpoint. Veriticle shots @ 20 yards were all to the left about 5 inches and Canted shots were 5 inches to the right. So I shortened my arrow to 29″ and shot verticle and still had shots to the left 5 to 6 inches and Canted were dead Center with tight groups. I did not shoot fletched arrows. Will the fletching possible change my point of impact? I understand i should have stayed either to the left or right of my Center Tape line on my target. I hope i explained myself right. I’ll see if i can post picks of my tuning. This really confused me.

[handirifle]

#14388

Sounds to me like Troy nailed it. It sure seems like your form changed when you went from vertical to cant. I’m assuming you’re shooting right handed?

One possible thing you might be doing is, when you hold vertical, your bow arm is moving more to the left upon release. Or, when you shoot canted, you’re pulling your right hand tighter into your face, before release.

Less face pressure, for a right hand shooter, will always send your arrows more to the left.

[Crystalshrimp]

#14443

[quote=handirifle]Sounds to me like Troy nailed it. It sure seems like your form changed when you went from vertical to cant. I’m assuming you’re shooting right handed?
quote]

I’m a right handed shooter and i do agree with possible form change. Yet my anchor point is consistant. It sure does feel like i missed something in my bareshafting. I have to admit that i was quite fatigued as i continued to bareshaft, cutting 1/4 inch at a time from 31″ to 29″. I will go at it again with my arrows and post as soon as i can get back to a range. 20yds is about all i can honestly say I can shoot comfortably. I really want to follow the rules stated in Bareshafting 101 but can i get away with canting?

[Troy Breeding]

#14745

Leo,

Whoa!!!! amigo,,,, first mistake… Once you start getting in any sort of close in bareshafting never cut a 1/4″ off your shaft. When I get anywhere close, I normally cut no more than 1/8″ and sometimes just the width of the saw blade.

On my last run at setup, my bareshaft was shooting pretty good. When I fletched I could still see a slight weakness in the arrow (tail left at 30yds). I pulled the nock and cut only the width of the saw blade and now have super flight.

If you were seeing point of impact to the left when holding vertical then your arrow was already too stiff (i.e. you had already cut off too much). Canting the bow only changed your starting point of the shot.

One other thing, most shooters that are not used to shooting vertical will have a different anchor point. Be it due to either improper elbow alienment or simply just not getting the hand in the right spot from not pulling fully into the anchor. It is different, I know I have the same problem.

I suggest starting over and stopping short of the center line via the right side. Fletch the arrow, shoot, then if it still seems weak you should have enough shaft behind the fletching to make atleast two super shallow cuts to see the change. If not strip the shaft, refletch again and keep trying.

Troy

[Crystalshrimp]

#14892

Troy Breeding wrote:
If you were seeing point of impact to the left when holding vertical then your arrow was already too stiff (i.e. you had already cut off too much). Canting the bow only changed your starting point of the shot.
Troy

I should have just tuned strictly verticle? Then is it possible to have a 2″ difference in arrow setup using the same weight up front same arrow for the exeption of 1.1 gpi? Here another thing I’d like to point out.

The tuning method I use with EFOC and Ultra-EFOC shafts is derived from O.L.’s tuning method but differs in several aspects. One VERY IMPORTANT ASPECT that is RETAINED is that the direction of NOCK KICK IS TOTALLY IGNORED. What you are looking at is strictly the point of impact; NOT which way the nock appears to be oriented. Too many factors can influence nock kick for it to be a valid indicator or dynamic arrow spine. Just as in O.L.’s method I do adjust the string’s nocking point to minimize the ‘up or down’ point of impact of the shaft, getting it relatively level prior to doing any other tuning.

Troy Thank you for the advise.. I really need to take my time and spread it out a couple of days. I do want Super Flight and I’m sure it is attainable. Do you concern yourself with Nock Kick while tuning EFOC arrows?

[Ed Ashby]

#14908

It looks like Troy has you on the right line. If you’re getting a left bare-shaft impact you are already stiff spine. That also could partially account for the difference in left-right impact when shooting vertical vs. canted. The stiff spined arrow shoots away from the riser AND away from the arrow shelf/rest. When the bow is vertical the too-stiff arrow strikes high and left. At a slight cant the too-stiff shaft will still go high and left, but not as far left. As the amount of bow cant increases the arrow tends to go dead-high (at a 45 degree cant), then to high right (of the vertically held bow’s shot impact). The shape of the arrow shelf and riser (the contact area) also affects the amount of vertical and lateral deviation.

Ed

[handirifle]

#14915

Wow, lots left to learn for me too. Looks like its time to keep the old eyes open and the fingers still a bit.8)

[Crystalshrimp]

#15021

handirifle wrote: Wow, lots left to learn for me too. Looks like its time to keep the old eyes open and the fingers still a bit.8)

I’m right there with you Handrifle. Sometimes it can get a bit overwhelming for a newcomer like myself but I’m willing to do the work. Thanks Ed……. I’ll be going back to the range, it seems in order to get it right I’ll have to do it right. Here’s another Question for ya guys. If i have a 27″DL, does it make sense to still start out bareshafting with a full length arrow and my set amount of EFOC upfront.

[Troy Breeding]

#15102

Leo,

As with anything you can start out with whatever length shaft you want. However, you will waste far fewer shafts and save alot more time by starting out with a full length shaft.

Remember, your hearing this from one of the hardheadest fellows around. Guess you can say I learn more from experence than the writen word. Don’t make the same mistakes I did.

As for the 1.1gpi difference? It’s a big deal when it comes to weight. That 1.1gpi allows for a 30gr difference in overal weight of the average length shaft. In short, light always recovers faster. Thats why so many are against trying the improved effects of heavy or EFOC/UEFOC arrows. Those lighter shafts can recover so much faster that they really think they have a better flying arrow.

Troy

[Troy Breeding]

#15121

Leo,

One other thing I forgot to say.

As for tail kick, thats one thing you can decrease if you work VERY slowly at it. I think most of the tail kick we see is nothing more than bad/sloppy release. However, before getting into the EFOC/UEFOC arrows I could make a bareshaft shoot just like it had fletching. I feel this was mainly due to the fact that the point weight was so low it had little effect on resistance and recovery.

At times I do see as clean a flying bareshaft as though it had fletching. When it does happen I can tell it the second it happens. It’s almost like the bow was shot without any sound. Thats why I say alot of the tail kick is bad/sloppy release.

Troy

[Crystalshrimp]

#15344

Troy thanks, I will be continuing this tuning until i get the results i want to see. The Tail kick was a big concern for me but is seems this can be corrected as soon as the fletching goes on. While tuning Ive noticed fatigue plays a big role aswell. Once im tired i get sloppy and it seems useless to get perfect results if im not 100% on stance, anchor points and aiming methods.

I have to admit this is the most help anyone can get from real hunters that put in the time to get it right.. thanks again for all the comments and advice.

[jaytbuzzard]

#15830

Would increasing the field point weight by 100 grains make a difference on nock height? I’m guessing that the increase in weight can make a difference in the nock adjustment.

[Troy Breeding]

#15844

jaytbuzzard wrote: Would increasing the field point weight by 100 grains make a difference on nock height? I’m guessing that the increase in weight can make a difference in the nock adjustment.

JTB,

You can place $$$ on that. By adding that much weight you have changed the dynamic spine ofthe shaft (i.e. weakened the dynamic spine).

Raising the nocking point will allow you to shoot a weaker spine shaft to some degree. I’m not as big on doing that as I am of building out the sight window. Everyone should keep alittle self-adheasive velcro handy. Cut a stamp sized piece of velcro and stick it on your sight window where the shaft passes. It’s really amazing how well this works. Ed kept telling me this and for some reason ( I guess me being so hardheaded) the thought of building out the sight window just didn’t cut it for me.

Well, after finally buckleing in and doing it, I have to tip my hat to Ed. Sticking on the velcro spacer is easier, faster, and will cause less problems in the end with reversing everything if it doesn’t help or is too much.

Troy

[Ed Ashby]

#17417

I think I can turn all the EFOC tuning threads over to Troy. He’s got it down! :D:D:D

Ed

[Steve Sr.]

#17454

“Raising the nocking point will allow you to shoot a weaker spine shaft to some degree“

Huh…….got me on that one. Never gave it a single thought.

(new to bareshafting……….gimme a break! lol)

Adding a thread on this…….still a bit confused? on what tells me what?

Never too old to learn, even IF bullheaded!

God Bless
Steve Sr.

[Troy Breeding]

#17476

Steve,

My ol’ brain is supposed to know all this. I think I have forgot most of it. I think they call it CRS (can’t remember $#!#). Now I’m having to make the ol’ hair covered computer fire on circuts that havn’t been used in several years.

Some of this is slightly different to my normal tuning due to the fact that several years ago high FOC wasn’t even a in the minds of anyone other than someone like Ed.

Still, it’s all coming back to me the more I work at it.

Either that or that bright light I see every once in awhile is a sign of worst things to come.

Troy

[David Coulter]

#18541

Thanks to all the information posted here, I’m starting to tune some new shafts. I have Beaman ICS Bowhunter 400s, 50 grain brass inserts and 200 grain tips. I’m shooting a 46# Leon Stewart Slammer Special.
I shot a few full length shafts into a Black Hole foam block with a piece of white paper with a vertical line down the middle and a dot in the center of the line. The first shots were heading about 4 o’clock 10 inches out. I did several shots then put the bow away. Next day, I did a few more and they went to the same place, so I started trimming.
I’m using a Dremel with a standard cutoff blade, turning the shaft into the tool, then squaring up by butting the shaft into the face of the blade. Seems to work just fine.
It’s fun to watch the strikes inch closer to the center line as I take off an inch, then a quarter inch at a time. I got to the center line and retired the bow for a fresh start tomorrow or the next. It pays to go slow, as I don’t think I’ve taken off more than a couple of inches to move the strikes 10 inches.
So, I’m bouncing between a few threads on bare shaft tuning and want to ask a question again for clarification. I’m good at beating a dead horse…
So, we get the bare shaft to fly to center then compare to a fletched arrow. I’m assuming that the fletched arrow has been trimmed the same as the bare shaft, correct?
Also, if we see the bare shaft fly to a different impact than the fleched arrow, we adjust the bare shaft and also make the same adjustment to the fletched arrow?
I glued in my insert, so I’m taking it off the south end of the pole. If I need to adjust the fletched arrow, I’ll be refletching. Not a problem if that’s the way it needs to be done, but I’ll skip the extra work if it is not necessary.
I pushed a 50 grain brass insert into the first shaft just to check fit and I couldn’t get the dang thing out. So I shot it into the block and, as you would expect, that insert and point now live inside the block…
Thanks for all of your help. d

[Troy Breeding]

#21486

David,

Your headed down the right road from what I’m reading.

Yes, the fletched arrow need to be the same length as the shaft. Remember, you will be able to make acouple of small cuts behind the fletching before you will need to refletch.
After you feel the arrow and shaft are flying the same(provided you don’t have to refletch) I’d suggest refletching the arrow and giving it another try. The reason I suggest this is placement of the feathers can effect the way an arrow shoots.

Most of the time the only adjustments I have to make when comparing the fletched arrow to the shaft is with the nocking point on the string. For some reason when I get really close I will see a slight difference in the heigth of the two.

Don’t feel like the lone stranger on loosing the insert. I’ve done that as well.

Troy

[David Coulter]

#21690

Thanks, Troy. I fletched one today, leaving a little space. It’s raining here so I’ll have to wait a day or so, but I’ll keep you posted.
I fletched with 4 inch shields, since I ran out of 5 inchers, so I’ll see how that works. thanks, d

[Troy Breeding]

#21829

David,

I’ve even dropped my fletching down to 3″ parabolic on my 28%EFOC target arrows and will be dropping to the A&A 2-1/2″ fletching on my hunting arrows. I’m hoping to get them up to the 30+ % range. Once you get the bearshafting correct it doesn’t take as much fletching to correct as you would expect. Besided, the more fletching you hang on the rear, the more your taking away from you FOC.

Troy

[David Coulter]

#21901

That’s encouraging. I requested the free offer from True Flight for small feathers and they sent me, not only the 2 inchers, but some 3s and 4s. Wow, those 2 inchers are little!

[Troy Breeding]

#22399

When I first started using the smaller feathers they really looked strange. Almost like I was looking at a darkside arrow. Now that I’m used to them I kinda laugh to myself everytime I put my hands on an arrow with those 5-1/2″ feathers.

Troy

[David Coulter]

#42865

I had to wait for some 100 gr. adapters to come in and fit them to my broadheads. My set-up is 46# Stewart Slammer Special longbow, a 135 Grizzly, 50 gr. insert, 100 gr. adapter, Beman 400 Bowhunters.
My bare shafts and field points flew pretty well. I put a broadhead on and it flew right down the line, but six inches high at about 12 yards. Second shot basically went into the same hole. A few more showed it still going high. I move the nock point up about 1/8 inch and bingo. Everything wants to go to center now. I’ll shoot this for a few days and see if it all holds true. Thanks! dwc

[jaytbuzzard]

#61834

David, what length did your arrows end up? I’m starting to work on my Beman 400’s and I am curious where you ended up with yours. Thanks, Jay.

[David Coulter]

#61917

Hi JayT,
My Beman 400’s came out to 29 7/8″. That’s to the front of the brass insert. I measure there as I install the insert and remove length from the rear.
I ended up staying with a 5″ three fletch, with about 1/2 trimmed to square off the rear end, mainly because I was tuning so close to hunting season and wanted to make sure they’re flying straight. They are.
For some reason, perhaps due to an active imagination, the carbons seem to be more sensitive than my aluminum arrows. I really pay attention to my form with these, and they work great. When I get a little careless, especially with my bow grip, they can fly off a little. Not much, but a little. I seemed like with the aluminums they just plain flew right.
I’ve been using the same arrow for stumping for weeks now, which I could never say with aluminum or wood. The only problem is that I probably took a shot with the adapter/judo not screwed in tightly and now it’s just a hair bent to the side and it will not come unscrewed. Still flies fine. Happy tuning! dwc

[David Coulter]

#9545

A question about the turbulator for you guys. I’m wondering how thick this should be. It seems like using a narrow strip of arrow would work, but that sure seems thin. The width should only be about 1/32 or 1/16 of an inch and about a 1/4 inch ahead of the fletching, right?
Duct tape probably does not have enough of a defined edge, but is that a good thickness?
Thanks for your help. dwc

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