Home › Forums › Campfire Forum › P&Y changes mind
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Anyone else out there concerned about the change to P&Y now allowing lighted nocks? I live in Montana, where we have been pro-active in banning trail cams during the actual hunting seasons, and banning various “electronic devices”, including lighted nocks yet again last legislative session. Am I alone?
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Maddog — No, you’re not alone, in spirit anyhow. Indeed MT is doing good work. I was hoping MT’s sportsman-led banning of canned shooting farms would start a trend across the West, but not so. A friend and I made a major effort to get a similar movement going here in CO a few years ago, and failed miserably, in large part due to hunter group apathy and outfitter opposition (they don’t want to upset the traditional ranchers, aka Farm Bureau, Cattlemen’s Assoc., etc., upon whom more are becoming dependent for staging their “hunts,” increasingly on ATVs rather than horses). So MT is way ahead of the rest of the West in that arena.
I’m not a trophy guy so never cared much about what P&Y or B&C does … and lost all interest and faith after P&Y allowed 80% let-off for compounds. Yet they are an influential group and allowing lighted nocks is a downhill first step toward getting more states, like CO, to allow them. You can always withdraw your support and tell them why. Get enough people doing that, and I’ve seen it work wonders. I’ve always figured that a lot of the serious trophy guys cheat like hell anyhow and use whatever gear they like, then lie about it. It’s a distinct and visible personality type that both craves “recognition” and will cheat like hell to get it. SCI is full of ’em.
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[Dave good to see you posting …nothing like a hot subject to get one. fired up
I have been a P & Y member since 1989 The club has a lot of good qualities. Promoting conservation ,youth archery, and trying to promote hunting standards and ethics.
Glen Saint Charles was instrumental along with others like Fred Bear in the founding and promotion of the club …In the early years P&Y was influential in promoting archery equipment as legal weapons for hunting. With out the club and there members influence we might not have had archery hunting as we know it.
That being said like all organizations they evolve over the years into different organizations taking on different philosophies When I joined the club had a strong traditional influence but now leans more to the mechanical archer.
The young mechanical archer as they become qualified to vote on changes in the P&Y constitution their vote is influenced by their experiences and culture .
I am a “Senior Member ” of the club thus I have voting rights.
I voted against the lighted knock thing twice but it finally passed by a super majority.
Like Dave, I believe that this could be the beginning of a slippery slope of other mechanical/electronic things to come.
There are good arguments about recovery etc. That are made for lighted knocks but that can be made about other devices like crossbows.:x There will not be a end in the proposed changes of equipment as the new hunter is looking for the easy way …
I have friends that left P&Y over the 80% let off .they did not go quietly. Maybe there were not enough that took that route to have influence.
I prefer to follow my wife’s philosophy. She says she will” never give me a divorce as she intends to stick around and make my life miserable ” :D( this is a joke between us for 54 years ) Like Janice I plan to try to continue to influence the P&Y Club or at least to make they membership meetings fun or miserable depending on your point of view:D:D
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Joe– 54 years of being “kept straight” by a devoted and long-suffering wife! You lucky dog! I’ve been single, I’ve been unhappily married, and for 36 years I was very very happily married (screaming fights included!). I highly recommend the latter. And if she puts up with being a hunting widow for many weeks a year, you/we are doubly blessed.
Your points about the gradual transition from traditional hunting values to what the new “hunters” want, in P%Y and other hunters’ groups, foretells the end. Trophy hunting is damn, double-damn, hard to morally justify at its best. Add in a big slop of cheater technology and it goes to hell instantly. Is that what the leaders and supporters of P%Y, both past and present, want for the group and for hunting? Populism can take us up or down. I admire your spunk to stay in and fight for the right thing. While you’re at it, can you convince them to remove all hunters’ names from “the book”?
Simple, clean, easily defendable to open-minded nonhunters, unimpeachably moral and ethical, and preferably local. That’s the only defendable future for hunting … and for the world. It can be done, but our groups–groups that we found and support and personally identify with–with a few sterling exceptions, are now true hunting’s enemas (sic). We would be far better off without most of them.
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Wow..”The” David Peterson even agrees with me. I have been draggin of around bows since 1957, when my dad gave me my first green glass longbow. We are sowing the seeds of our own self destruction and neither P&Y, AMO, and yes, even the group I have been proud to be a member, the PBS is just lacking the guts to draw that line, and unlike our President, stick to that line. KNOW WHEN TO SAY WHEN!!!! I am screaming when. I have a letter to the Editor hitting the trad world in the next issue of Traditonal Bowhunter. It will be interesting. Drones are now able to be purchased for $400.00 that have GPS and web downloading capable cameras. Now the lazy bums can sit in their fancy motorhomes, easily find prey, and kill at will until we have a sterile hunting environment. Excuse me, it will no longer be called hunting…just killing
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“‘DAVE I really can not argue your points as I agree with most.
I believe that the only way to fight for or better hunting seasons,restrictions on ATV’s ,restrictions on equipment ,etc. is through groups such as Compton,PBS,P&Y and local and state organizations.
It is unfortunate when a club weakens and strays from their core beliefs. All one can do is try to stay active and convince enough people what is right as we see it.
I remember meeting a guy that said he did not contribute to groups to fight for hunting. His thought was to take that money and go on more hunts. He said it was a loosing battle fighting the anti’s and he would put his money to better use.
I am not ready to roll just yet i have grandchildren that want to hunt.:D
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When a Club strays from its core values to accommodate individuals need to boost their ego by using technology to Kill(mind you NOT harvest} a record book animal, Than maybe that club has deemed itself moot and needs to be disbanded..
I rarely jump into these discussions. I have been a Traditional Longbow/Recurve hunter my whole life. Never used anything resembling gadgets to enjoy the Sport of Archery. Have kept my freezer full, My family fed, and have enjoyed moments in the field that will go with me to the grave..
That being said..We as Hunters, Archers, and Outdoors men(that includes the Female gender, so don’t beat me up over it)need to band together, stay united, and keep these bad apples out of the woods. They have altered Game Laws and bag Limits, Destroyed the Environment with their reckless abandon and ATVs, and Just made the woods a mess..
I for one support Fair Chase, NO Technology, and damn sure no ATVs. Hunting was supposed to be an escape from the modern hustle and bustle, and these lazy glory hounds have dragged that to the Wilderness many of us so cherish..
Gauntlet thrown Boys and Girls…Anyone have enough backbone to pick it up and run with it???? Count Me in
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It is my understanding, from one of the fellows just elected to the board, that the P&Y club is losing several members a day, cannot pay their bills from incoming revenue, and cannot break even on their banquets.
This is why they have been under such pressure to allow things like lighted nocks and electronic gizmo’s on bows. They want to attract the tech crowd as the trad crowd isn’t paying the bills.
Simple economics. The club is in the existential fight of it’s life, all else be damned. I can appreciate that. But the club’s troubles and solutions mirror the larger troubles of society. With much the same result.
They did such good work in the early years, but the seeds of failure were sewn with the club’s involvement in “trophies”. Vanity always wins. Vanity cares only for itself. And vanity dies a lonely death, every time.
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I’m not the least bit concerned about it. Pope & Young is a private club and as such can include or exclude whatever they want from their record book. Unless I’m concerned about entering an animal into their book, it’s a moot point to me.
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J.Wesbrock wrote: I’m not the least bit concerned about it. Pope & Young is a private club and as such can include or exclude whatever they want from their record book. Unless I’m concerned about entering an animal into their book, it’s a moot point to me.
Jason you are correct saying the P&Y club is private and the can include or exclude what they want from their by-laws.
But if you look at the big picture P&Y is probably one of the most influential clubs around. State law makers ,conservation departments, etc. look to the club for guidance in their own rule making….
If you are concerned as Mad DOg Mike writes in the original post with lighted knocks used in Montana he is now on the wrong side of the argument as he will be reminded over and over the P&Y approves lighted knocks what is your problem. Like Mad Dog some of us are concerned that this is just the beginning. First 80% let off then lighted knocks…next lighted or laser sites ,than gps tracking arrows.It goes on and on. Some see no harm in these things as there are arguments pro and con on each one.I personal feel that being a traditional archer it changes the sport.I would also go as far to say that traditional and primitive archers should have separate hunting seasons as these high tech bows are akin to shooting a gun.
If You remember in a organization we both belong “the United Bowhunters of Illinois “ our equipment rules followed the P& Y rules down to the letter.That changed when P&Y went to 80% let off on compounds. The discussion at UBI was final resolved through vote not to go along with 80%.
That issue and others later prompted the UBI to become a traditional club only . Existing members were grandfathered in and could use compounds but not with 80% let off
NO compounds would not be allowed for new members….Not all would have bucked the system like UBI most will follow like sheep.
We all should be concerned of the stance that major organizations take ,,,like it or not it does have a effect on our sport.
Jason looking forward to seeing you at Compton 😀
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Jason: We stand for something, or we stand for nothing.
Mad Dog et al., the tech threats to ethical, meaningful, worthwhile and defendable hunting also include a slug of junk which, because it’s not weapons technology, P&Y etc. will never have to reject or accept, yet it’s out there. For example … http://www.hecsllc.com/
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Joe: I think folks overestimate P&Y’s influence on legislation. While I have no doubt the rules they use for entry into their record book (which aren’t even binding on their own members aside from record book entries) are held as a legal baseline by some governmental agencies, I think that’s overwhelmingly the exception rather than the rule. Honestly, I’ve read and listened to more arguments about lighted nocks over the past few years than I can count. I still have yet to hear one good reason to ban them aside from hypothetical if-then scenarios.
On a side note, I won’t be at Compton this year. My daughter and I will be in South Bend that weekend for the NFAA outdoor sectionals.
Dave: I stand for plenty, but I refuse to wrap myself around someone else’s axle over every little thing. To me, life is too short for that.
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J.Wesbrock wrote: Joe:
On a side note, I won’t be at Compton this year. My daughter and I will be in South Bend that weekend for the NFAA outdoor sectionals. .
GOOD LUCK …HAVE FUN
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What a great discussion. Have to agree that when the “club” caves in to non-trad ethics the slippery slope is there.
We were pleased to receive yesterday Clay’s film “the untamed”. Other then being way to short–it clearly pronounces this groups ethic’s during the hunt. I’m sure Dave’s “The Good Hunt” will follow. Seems to me, we as a tribe should do a better job of getting that word out. But alas it don’t make a lot of money for the techno firms. I have found that trying to educate those already under the spell of easier is better, almost impossible. You keep trying at the local level and get used to a lot of disappointment.
Check out that link that Dave posted—what a bunch of pseudo science. I spent many years in the sensing, detecting, identifying and shooting business–trust me on this–if an animal of any species detects your EM emissions you are close enough to kill it with a knife. But I just love it when they make a reference to “some” Navy seal training–if they only knew.
Stand for something or stand for nothing—well said.
Semper Fi
Mike
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Done!
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The argument that lighted knocks help with recovery is BS (sorry Mom). The next thing the horizon will be GPS tracking nocks that will allow you to use your Drone to home in on the locator signal from your knock. Which means they will also start using penetration limiting devises so the arrow stays in the animal. Less penetration means a longer time until the animal dies. They do not care as long as they can find and claim the horns for measure and entry to the record book. If you think I am off my rocker I truly hope you are right.
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P&Y B&C etc did do good work, at one time… Now alot of people only care ” What does it score???” and will do whatever they can to get that pat on the back(and $$$ for killing a big buck) Note all the “famous” staff-shooters that have been found to have lied about the animals they have killed,ie: high-fence claimed as free-range, road-kill and sheds mounted and scored for the “Book”…
Embrace the Hunt, not how many inches it may be, the Hunt is the true trophy…
While I do use some tech, trail cams, GPS while hunting, I pull cams a few weeks before the season starts and I never set the correct time-stamp, I want it to be a HUNT, and GPS is more of a safety factor (>>>I’m wadded-up here<<<)…
Drones are being used by some “hunters” and outfitters in AZ already…
I did enter a Coues into P&Y due to peer-pressure, but I really could care less about being in a ‘Book”. Note: just about any 8point(eastern count) Coues will make P&Y…
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Regardless of P&Y or B&C, there is value in recording the numbers. As has been said her before by D.T. & D.P. they could be anonymous, or the state agencies could collect Scores. A recent Wildlife Monograph was published, “Effects of harvest, culture, and climate on trends in size of horn-like structures in trophy ungulates” by K. Monteith et al. They used over 22,000 records from 1900-2008. With all this data, they were able assess which species have become smalller, stayed the same, or even increased in antler or horn mass. I think that’s worth having the records for.
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And regarding the original posting, I think lighted nocks, along with most new technologies, creates a situation where a hunter might take a marginal shot because having the lighted nock gives a false sense of security that you will be able to see the arrow in poor light.
I’m not familiar with recovery rate data of people using lighted nocks verse not. But it is another step away from the original purpose of bowhunting- to give the hunter a greater challenge. If the state wanted more deer killed they should give out more tags or lengthen the gun season. Keep the challenge in bowhunting.
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[size=12 point]There is a argument for lighted knocks…it is a possibility that they would help in recovery of game. I do think this is a valid argument. My reseverations are as stated above when and where does it stop???
In this case or subject some will say that the majority prevailed in the vote so the minority is just out of step with the rest.
I don’t believe this to complete true. I think that most are becoming to passive to fight for their beliefs. It is defiantly a fight as lighted knocks was certainly lobbied for by commercial interest. When we realize this may be we will start fighting for our individual beliefs…………
[i]STAND FOR SOMETHING OR STAND FOR NOTHING[/i]
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Steve Graf wrote: they have been under such pressure to allow things like lighted nocks and electronic gizmo’s on bows. They want to attract the tech crowd as the trad crowd isn’t paying the bills.
Dido what Steve said. But I think this is also a loosing proposition in the long run. It’s not the flashy tech crowd that’ll see hunting through the tough times, but the hard core traditional values hunters, no matter if it’s with a compound, stick bow, or rifle. These hunters will be there, no matter what. Most guys that buy into the high tech bells and whistles are, in my opinion, not true hunters at their core. They hunt, and they may even be good at it. But when it comes down to making the sacrifices it’ll take to keep hunting alive they’ll just give it up and go to a football game. P&Y, along with other organizations and even state agencies are alienating those true hunters by chasing the glitter that’ll surely blow away.
Jason, the issue of whether or not lighted nocks will aid a hunter isn’t the point. As others have said, it will open the door to other, more “helpful” gadgets. There has always been a moratorium on electronics on bows/arrows. This will break that open. mark my words. If we allow batteries in arrows, it won’t be but a few years until we’re allowing transmitters in arrows for all the same arguments they’re now using for lighted nocks. this is all very depressing because I know it’s coming.
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Am I missing something here, just arm the drones and nobody has to ‘hunt’ anymore, just need to find a collection and butchery service.
Woke up to a power cut Saturday, spent an hour replacing fuses, resetting clocks and the temperature on the wine fridge (that had me worried). Finally got round to checking bows etc. relief they were all unaffected, but seriously all that crap will let you down.
As for P&Y, with my limited knowledge of them if they want to join the circus of high tech big spenders they are late offering nothing new and its an expensive club to join.
Just my observations, Mark.
And another thing, if the HECS gear is as good as they say we’re going to see lots of reports of hunters getting OS close to things with teeth and claws.
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Clay,
I understand what you’re saying, but I believe things should be judged on their own merits, not based on hypothetical scenarios involving other things that may or may not come to fruition. Pope and Young is a private club, and apparently their membership has decided this issue for them. Since I’m not a member and have no interest in putting animals in their record book, what they do or do not allow is none of my business or concern anyway.
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OK guys, so enlighten me. Are we discussing lighted nocks because of whether they are an ethical device to use or is it worrisome because their use might lead to some other gizmos?
I don’t know anything about those nocks other than what I’ve been reading here and a bit of research I just got through with.
I doesn’t seem that they can be used as an aiming device so…? You might be able to see an arrow’s flight path in the dark on a shot you shouldn’t have taken anyway but that’s not too helpful I wouldn’t think. Throw a firebrand in the dark it still don’t help you see what you were throwing at.
In daylight some people put bright fuzzy feathers at the nock to aid in visibility so a lighted nock just brighter (but modern tech the problem)?
I’m not yaying or naying for the product just, like I said at first, enlighten me but don’t knock me, I’m just in the dark on this. Pun intended:D
Ralph
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That’s a good question, Ralph, helping to focus the discussion. In my mind, it’s not lighted nocks, per se. Rather, supporters of any and every little bit of legal advantage they can gain over wildlife will use this decision to howl at their state wildlife departments “If P&Y says it’s OK, then it should be OK with Colorado!” or whatever other state that now prohibit electronics in archery seasons. It’s a chink in the armor. It’s symbolic and, in chemical terms, a potential catalyst for more and more chipping away at fair chase and challenge in hunting. It’s a step in the wrong direction and no matter how small and seemingly insignificant each such step, they count up and, like creeks feeding a river, can eventually coalesce in a devastating flood. Electronic devices have no place in traditional-values hunting, esp. when they’re attached to weaponry. Negative change tends to be insidious, sneaking up on us a wee bit at a time so that it’s hardly noticeable until it’s too late … like the strip-malls that now define America, coast to coast. Too many people fail to look at the big picture and the long run. P&Y should know this and the fact that they caved, aside from boding poorly for the future of trad bowhunting and fair chase, is yet another strike against their already floundering credibility.
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Thanks David. My feelings also I just wanted to see which direction this discussion was going to go.
P&Y is a business and apparently from what I read here beginning to be financially strapped. That means shortcuts, grasping at straws, and cockamamie schemes to make ends meet.
A lighted nock to me is a trivial thing, I hunt with wood arrows and I don’t know if they make lighted nocks for such and I ain’t gonna look, but it’s like the first little seep in the beaver dam, without the matter being tended to big problems can arise.
Anyway, the little things some choose to ignore may bite them in the arse someday.
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IMO this is a slippery slope to traverse for the P&Y club. They are in a crossroads type of place where decisions like this can tear away at the roots of their origin. The lighted nocks themselves may be completely harmless as an additional device that is allowed by the club, but it is another device. I used these nocks when I shot wheelie bows. And I liked them and they were fun. But I severed those ties when I switched to traditional to recapture the values I had lost through all the technology. Now the P&Y club was established to bring acknowledgement to hunters who harvested exceptional animals with archery equipment. The founders of that club could never have foreseen the evolution of the equipment and technology in this sport. So what we all have to ask ourselves is, and I include tradshooters, techshooters, vendors and clubs alike, where and when do we draw a line to preserve the sport? Who will take the lead and say ENOUGH? Part of our identity as archers and bowhunters is our past. And we grow closer to losing that identity with every new gadget we come up with.
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David … I’d say that you, and others here (almost everyone who cared enough about this topic to comment here, in fact), have drawn that line you ask about, at least for ourselves. And “self” is where anything of value must begin. Alas, most protestations against negative change get swept under the rug of “progress,” corporate profit and advertising, group-“think” and “It doesn’t directly impact my life, so why should I get all wrapped-up about it?” Yet, win or lose, I like to think that someday, someone will look back on all of this and note with sad pride that “At least not all of us were silent lambs or failed to think, and care, beyond our own situations.”
“When Hitler attacked the Jews I was not a Jew, therefore I was not concerned. And when Hitler attacked the Catholics, I was not a Catholic, and therefore, I was not concerned. And when Hitler attacked the unions and industrialists, I was not a member of the unions and I was not concerned. Then, Hitler attacked me and the Protestant church and there was nobody left to be concerned.”
–Pastor Martin Niemoeller (1892-1984)
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As Clay said, when the dust settles, no matter what else is left, there will be traditional bowhunters. You can’t snuff out traditional bowhunting. That brings me comfort. Maybe too much comfort.
But I sense some hypocrisy in our self righteousness. I wonder how many folks who have responded to this thread are members of P&Y? I am not. I have no interest in it.
The organization is completely irrelevant to my life or way of thinking. So here we are stomping and cussing about something, but we’re not motivated enough to join up and work to change it.
Maybe there should be a movement afoot to take back the P&Y club and put it to work for the future of hunting, hunters, humanity, and the beast.
If a block of trad hunters, who are all opposed to “the book” and all the gizmo’s joined up at the same time… Maybe tradbow could have a link where people could join up and send a pre-written message with their application 😯
Otherwise it’s just much sound and fury that signify nothing…
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I understand your sentiment Steve that if you do not fight for change it will not happen. I hung on to my RMEF membership for 10 years working to see it change back to it original mission. But finally I could not support them any more. It seems sooner or later money finds its way into the process and strings that come with it are tolerated and the costs are justified.
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Steve Graf wrote: …Maybe there should be a movement afoot to take back the P&Y club and put it to work for the future of hunting, hunters, humanity, and the beast.
If a block of trad hunters, who are all opposed to “the book” and all the gizmo’s joined up at the same time… Maybe tradbow could have a link where people could join up and send a pre-written message with their application 😯
Otherwise it’s just much sound and fury that signify nothing…
The issue here is how many of you are Regular Members of P&Y? General members in the Pope and Young Club can only vote for the Second Vice President. All other voting rights are withheld until you reach Regular Membership status. I can’t find the requirements for Regular Membership on their site, but I think it’s not a quick or easy process. This is not to discourage anyone from joining; I think each person needs to make that decision for himself. It would be great to have more traditional hunters in the P&Y ranks. Unfortunately, it will be slow to affect any change. I would urge existing Regular Members to stay an active participant and vote to keep the traditional values.
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I was on the board for ISB for about 8 yrs and we fought against lighted nocks and won – we had a great board then with some great trad folks on that made that possible. I was recently talking with the press of ISB and lighted nocks and other issues are being discussed and it was bad meaning that it sounded like if some issues pass the fish and game my want to shorten seasons so the writing is on the wall ?? We really need to be careful on what we are asking for ???
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Lots of great points being made here. Very good read and interesting.
My profession is all about people and how they act. To watch and document who they are and what they do. And all walks of statute, personality and status. I have to wear many different hats. In any 4 hour time frame I can be sitting with 20 year olds talking about rap music, crotch rocket motorcycles, and how getting “bombed this weekend” is the biggest thing they are looking forward to. Then an hour later I can be sitting in a 2 million dollar house talking about “trinkets” and “conversation pieces”. Then an hour later at a coffee shop with a couple where she is a 4’11” lawyer and he is a 6’7″ 350# harley obsessed guy filled with tats and works at pet smart.
What I have noticed is that the people of today have a huge sense of entitlement. Today people want what everyone else has but dont care how hard the other worked for it. They feel that if someone else can have they are entitled to it automatically. The people of the world today want it now, they want it fast, and they dont want to work for it. Everyone is “too busy” and not enough time in the day, to put in the work or time required for this or that. Yet the average person checks thier phone over 200 times a day and spends about 1.5 hours on social media.
The technology of the world feeds this and marketing and bad parenting have given people the sense of “you can have this, you can have this now, you deserve it, you should not have to work for it, this should be easy, we will make it easy for you!”
IMO, there is no coming back from this. The snowball of society is moving too fast to stop and its getting bigger as it rolls. In a less than 2 generations (40 years) we went from trad bows to compound bows to cross bows. Why? Read above!
people want easy. they want it now. they want it handed to them. and they dont want to, or feel they should have to work for it. They are too busy.
This is the problem, Any organization or club that is catering to hunters has to change with the hunters. then hunters are people and people are often like described above.
I as many of you feel that this is not who i am nor who i will ever be. The only things i get to take underground with me are my memories and my pride. If I upset a few people with my beliefs along the way, its ok, because im proud of those beliefs. I try to stand tall and be proud and firm on what matters to me. But i feel that my voice has become a little fish in a big pond.
I personally think the the day when compounds will be considered relics, cross bows will be allowed in P&Y, and the world we know will be gone is right around the corner. I fight this with everything i have, but i think the writing is on the wall. If there is ever an organization that could bring like minded people together to have a big enough say id be there in a second. But our fight is against society and the way the world is today we cant compete.
I do everything I can to raise my kids right, make them work for everything they have, teach them respect, etc yada yada yada. But how do we do that to a couple millions of people that are “entitled” to everything right now and easy!
I pray for the day that some how someone comes up with a solution to this. Otherwise I fear in the near future that snow ball running down hill is going to get bigger and bigger, faster and faster until nothing can stop it.
P&Y is a group of members. These members are proving they fit into the catagory that i dont want to be in. I do feel there is alot of good that they do. My disappointment is not with the P&Y. Its with the entitement attitude and give it to me now and easy attitude of the members that vote.
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Jason
very eloquently -hit the Nail on the head –
cyberscout
“they paved Paradise and put up a parking lot “
Joni Mitchell
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Great post Jason. I’ve thought of the movie “The Last Samurai” often in connection with this clan. “Those kids today”, many don’t get any “character activation” in their formative years. I know my family message like all in this country at one time or another, is, that, you sure as hell were going to do better than the struggling peasant stock we were off the boat. No ifs, ands or buts about it. I think many, many, of them launched a very ambitious future that has arrived beyond their wildest dreams. Those same genes just need a poke and a new dream. And, maybe a year of National Service to get their little hands dirty
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I am not Pope and Young and I agree with all that was said but I can say 1 thing. If you truly are looking for a organization to join that believes in the way we think please think of joining Back country hunter and anglers or even your state organization and let them know your feelings. I think once this stuff passes at the state level there could be a threat to shorten seasons ?? Food for thought
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Obviously, most on this forum are trad bow hunters, fair chase oriented and pretty much anti-tech, at least where our bow hunting is concerned. Guys, this same high tech progression has occurred in many outdoor, shooting oriented sports. Practical pistol shooting has gone from service revolvers to multi thousand $$$ race guns, carbines, and shotguns with zillion round magazines. Backpacking from a leisurely stroll through the wonder of nature to an ultra light weight sprint form point A to point B, with someone bringing you your provisions every night. We like to stop and smell the roses; we are process oriented rather than results oriented. We have always existed, and always will, just as the “dark side” has and will. Buffalo hunters, anyone? Market duck, pigeon, and upland game hunters? It is, however, a shame that state game departments have had to appease the high tech masses in order to justify their jobs. There just are not enough of US around anymore!
All we can do is to go forth and populate the earth with children, neighbors, friends,etc of our own kind. It really is, unfortunately, a numbers game, and our numbers are dwindling. Take a kid, neighbor, brother-in-law,whatever hunting with a stickbow, submerge them in the mystique of the hunt, the wonder of the stars shining through the campfire smoke as your buddies are gathered to recount the victories and defeats of the day, and the hopes for tomorrow. Teach them the distinct, manly satisfaction of learning to lean on their own skills and knowledge to make do in the woods. Anyone can anchor a deer at 150 yards with an AR platform, scoped 6.5mm supergun. It is really something to get within stickbow range, make the shot, and track the kill. In requiring more intimacy with nature, it naturally leads to a greater respect for same. And, it leads to independent thinking, fearless, can-do men that we desperately need to lead us out of this socialist vortex we are caught up in as a country.
WE NEED TO BE OUR OWN AMBASSADORS!
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I think there is more to this than P&Y or the average hunter making a decision to use or endorse the use of a technical device. I’m not a member or an endorser of gadgetry such as the lighted nock. It is my opinion that the concession to use these nocks in the taking of a record animal will give the archer no advantage over one that doesn’t. It will encourage hunters to hunt later which is questionable in my opinion.
But why the clamor for decades over records? Years ago the hunter or fisherman just got his name or picture in the paper for a notable catch and that was it. Now if you kill or catch the next record, the worlds next number one, you will be inundated with offers from the companies that sold you your equipment as well as every media outlet to invite you to come and go on tour. You will be like an instant celebrity in the hunting or fishing world. The bottom line is not lighted nocks or other gadgets. The bottom line is money and the industry is generating enormous amounts of it for some people.
Corporations will lobby wherever necessary to protect profits and growth and P&Y mentioned as a benchmark is not off limits to this lobby. I think many here are probably right that the lighted nock is a gateway device and others will follow. Sadly I have no solution to offer, only my own convictions. If I seem apathetic I’m sorry but I just see this as a fight I can’t win by my choices alone. It has to be won by consumers as I see it, as that is the playing field that has been set for us. Public opinion rules.
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