Predators and A Hunter's Conscience

[SteveMcD]

#3750

“We reached the old wolf in time to watch a fierce green fire dying in her eyes. I realized then, and have known ever since, that there was something new to me in those eyes—something known only to her and to the mountain. I was young then, and full of trigger-itch; I thought that because fewer wolves meant more deer, that no wolves would mean hunters’ paradise. But after seeing the green fire die, I sensed that neither the wolf nor the mountain agreed with such a view.” – Aldo Leopold

My Story…. About 20 years ago I was hunting the opening day of rifle season in Pennsylvania, high on a ridge top looking down into the mountain saddle where I expected the deer to pass by escaping from the valley below. At about 9 AM, a lone coyote came loping by, I noticed right away that it had a limp. Being opening day, and already knowing the number of hunters in the area and number of shots already fired. I assumed some hunter must have taken a pot shot at this animal. Not really wanting too, but fearing the animal was already suffering, I picked a spot through the pine trees and when the Coyote came into the crosshairs of my rifle scope, I squeezed the trigger and fired one shot. The 200 grain 35 caliber bullet did the job and put the coyote down in his tracks. I walked up to the animal which was in the last moments of it’s life. He glared at me with piercing green eyes and snarling and bearing his fangs, I viewed as his question – Why me? Am I not the same as you? (A Predator). I had shot the animal out of compassion for suffering but discovered that his limp was from a very old injury. The experience stayed with me ever since.

Another story – fast forward 20 years to 2009 – While I was in my hunting spot (grounblind) on a ridgetop shortly after sunrise this morning. Here comes a coyote trotting up the trail. This is an eastern coyote, he is beautiful, almost wolf-like in appearance, gray-white coat, masked face, and piercing green eyes. He us big! Considering the many I have seen over the years, as big, if not a little bigger than a german shepard. For the record, many biologist agree, the eastern coyote is more closely related to the Algonquin Timber Wolf than the western coyote, in genetics, appearance and habits. They are much larger than their western cousin, look more wolf-life than coyote, and hunt in packs like the wolf. This one comes up trotting at a fast walk gait, mouth open, pearly whites showing just like a happy dog! My hand automatically, begins to pull on the bow string, but my heart pulls on my conscience, I only kill what I am willing to put on the table. So I watch and enjoy the experience. I greatly admire the coyote, often persecuted, but to me this is a sport, to the coyote, it is a matter of life or starvation. To the American Indian, he is God’s Dog. I am grateful for the experience.

“What is man without the beasts? If all the beasts were gone, man would die from a great loneliness of spirit. For whatever happens to the beasts, soon happens to man. All things are connected.” – Chief Seattle

[David Petersen]

#23129

Bravo, Steve! You speak for me, and eloquently. While I don’t argue with those who kill predators, often because they feel it’s their duty in order to max small game for their own taking, and while predators certainly can be a drain on prey populations in certain situations,I feel a brotherhood that you explained as well as Aldo. Now my story …

For a couple of years now we’ve had a local coyote we’ve come to call Lonely, since until this summer he was always alone. He’s very aggressive when my wife walks our dogs, apparently feeling they are competition. He barks at them and comes running. Over time the aggression turned to play and all was fine. One morning this spring he was even waiting at the top of our drive for Caroline and dogs to join him on their morning walk. Then he or she picked up a mate and they had at least 2 pups (all we’ve seen). This changed everything and the aggression returned with our bigger dog, A Golden, getting into it with the two adults a few times though never receiving a puncture wound. At this point I said “They have to go. If you or the dogs get bitten, you’re in for rabies shots, expensive and painful. So I took out the .22 with them on a morning walk and sure enough, a coyote appears on a ridge above us and barks. I popped one at him and he jumped and ran off. I thought I’d hit him, maybe 75 yards but a good scope and the “hottest” .22 loads available. Then the second one posed on a higher ridge another 50 yards farther out and I shot again, clearly missing but sending the dog running. After that they left the family alone, raised the pups and now Lonely is alone again and neither aggressive nor alouf, though he comes out and barks occasionally. I’m glad it turned out that way. So there are times when it is justified and even necessary. But killing predators for no more than the thrill of killing, say what you will, will always seem wrong (and I’m using a gentle word here) to me. My 2 sents. I have two days left to kill an elk. Everything on my mountain that isn’t good to eat and causes us no problem is safe here and welcome. What should I prefer: a dead coyote of no us to me whatsoever, or their wild defiant howls in the night? Different places, different circumstances. Dave

[SteveMcD]

#23517

Hi, Dave. I agree with you completely. And do not disagree with the management of predators. Since we have already altered the environment, it is man’s responsibility to manage that environment. All things are connected, but all things pay a price for mis-management, as well.

So there are plenty pf predator hunters out there, we are just of a different spirit.

Good Luck! Go Get that Elk!

[Stephen Graf]

#23528

The last remaining population of the Eastern Red Wolf is in North Carolina. The accepted explanation for the demise of the red wolf (aside from man of course) is interbreeding with the coyote.

This might explain why the eastern Coyote is bigger than it’s western brother. Maybe the Algonquin Wolf = Eastern Red Wolf?

I have watched them mouse in the fields. And I have listened as a pack ran a deer down in a gully. I know they were successful because of the bleating I heard at the end… But They keep themselves scarce. They don’t sing much and I have never seen them while hunting around here.

But out west, I have seen coyote every time I have hunted in Colorado, Idaho, Indiana… I watched them attack a downed buck that was arrowed just a few minutes earlier. I’ve heard that they circle hunters that are field dressing deer.

Western Coyote seem much more aggressive than eastern Coyote. Maybe that will save the Eastern Coyote from the overall negative impression their Western brothers have….

[RedTape]

#25617

I have nothing against predator hunting. In fact I would love to try to get a big grizzly up in Alaska with my longbow someday. I’d shoot a coyote too if I had a reason for doing so…but…

I’ve never really understood people who shoot coyotes for no reason. The only one we’ve ever killed was when it got after one of the horses. We moved out to the country (read – out of city limits) when I was nine and there were coyotes everywhere. As more people have moved around us the population has gone down. I even ran into a guy down at the mailbox asking about them. He “hunted” them professionally by driving the roads shooting those he saw and putting out poison. I asked him why he did that and he said “because they’re coyotes.” Really baffles me. We don’t see them much anymore and I miss them.

I had a chance to shoot one a few years ago. Made a little ground blind and had squirrels playing near some pecan trees about 20 yards away. A coyote jumped out of the grass about 3 yards from them and ALMOST got one! Gave me a perfect shot and I drew on him, but at full draw I couldn’t think of any reason to kill him, so I didn’t. I enjoy seeing them out in the woods.

[rayborbon]

#26043

In short, predator control seems like a viable option to me. If you’re taking the deer you should consider taking the predators. I don’t eat coyotes but they used to pillage on the neighborhood cats and dogs back in Nevada. Some had even roamed into playgrounds below my fathers house several times. Good candidates for mulch if you ask me.

[SteveMcD]

#26149

Yes… we had a family of Coyotes on the ridge behind my house a few years ago. They took one of our cats. Bad points: They didn’t take the other one! 😆

[rayborbon]

#26152

My dog would gladly take care of any cats. 😈

[David Petersen]

#27119

Steve — the first one probly made ’em sick! 😈

[Flesner06]

#27175

They are hunted mercilessly here in WC Illinois in the winter time by groups with trucks and dogs. The farmers seem to like it but not many of those raise hogs outdoors anymore and the coyotes really don’t seem to bother calves (cattle). Most of the guys hunting them point out predation to small game and game birds as motivation. Maybe so, but developers, contractors, and farmers should also be hunted if we follow that logic! Besides, they eat more mice than anything, so unless your a trophy mouse hunter….?
Overpopulation in this area probably is a good reason to hunt them. I wouldn’t have belived there were really all that many judging from my sightings of them until two years ago. I ran into a trapper in the county I live in. He took two weeks vacation that winter to trap them. In those two weeks he trapped over 75 coyotes. almost all in this same county! That was an eye opener to me to think there were enough of them in the area to remove those numbers of animals and still not see any real impact.

[wildschwein]

#36665

Until two years ago I used to shoot at every single canine predator (when legal). Put it down to my redneck upbringing where the only good predator, rodent, was a dead one. But since then I have picked up traditional archery and become exposed to the writings of its practitioners. While I don’t agree with everything I’ve read, these writings have led me to re-think many of my beliefs, and even helped me form a new set of ethics. I wouldn’t kill a canine predator now, unless in defense of myself or those I care about. And I no longer kill without the intent to consume. I am ashamed to think back on those creatures that I did kill for no other reason than that they were predators or considered unworthy.

[celinsin]

#37117

Owning a small farm where we raise registered dairy goats prompts us to remain wary of coyotes. Local conservation aqents encourage us to kill them. In the past, I’ve done just that. But the last one I saw looked so handsome I just couldn’t do it – even though I had him dead to rights with the .223 we keep for just such instances. Like others have alluded to, I increasingly feel a kinship to fellow predators; although local cattle and sheep ranchers would surely disagree.

It’s a tough call. 😕

Chris

[RedTape]

#39913

Chris: nothing wrong with shooting a ‘yote if it’s after your livestock! We’ve done just that, and a couple others almost lost their lives when trying to get our pups. Bust out that .223 when needed. There is a time and place for shooting them.

[mts]

#40041

Letting my dog play with a wild coyote and then breaking out the ole .22 when it gets aggressive seems like feeding bears and then calling Game and Fish to remove it when it starts in on my cabin. Hmm!

[Flesner06]

#44630

I’ve seen evidence of female coyotes in heat luring male domestic dogs into the woods where they are attacked by other coyotes.
This seems to be what happened to a neighbors bird dog a few years ago. He witnessed the coyote “messing around and playing” with his dog which came up missing that evening.
We found it a week later in the timber behind his house. It had obviously been into a fight and killed.
Strange behavior for sure but the evidence points that way.

[David Petersen]

#45043

MTS — good point there about letting the dogs play, etc. It was my wife who let that situation develop, and not much she could do about it, even with dogs on leash. Thanks for pointing out my hypocrisy here. We thought it was fine and “cute” so long as all were getting along, but when the new coyote/mate showed up and it got aggressive, and bear spray failed and I feared my wife would get bitten and her walks became an ordeal each time, well you know the story. In any event I missed, the second coyote with pups moved on and now we’re back to “Lonely” again who has learned to keep his distance and just bark to annoy our dogs.

And true also about coyotes “playing” to lure a dog to where the family/pack can kill it. No coincidence perhaps that it’s always the little dog (35 lbs) they want to play with, until the golden retriever runs ’em off. At night we put barking collars on both, as they won’t run off chasing stuff if they can’t bark. All quite complicated, and my sympathies alternate between the wild and domestic dogs! dave

[bruc]

#45217

It is unfortunate that the North American fur industry has been pretty much ruined, and we all know why!!!
When coyotes and foxes were worth 50-150 dollars then there was good reason to trap,snare or shoot them.
It was during this time they were also at their healthiest!
Creating the “Balance” works best.
Bruce

[CarolinaBob]

#56096

IMHO Killing predators is sorta like killing snakes. I don’t except when they are in my yard and only the poisonous ones. Out in the woods I am on their property. Dave wasn’t it Cactus Ed when asked about yotes killing and eating sheep he replied ” Yes but not enough sheep…”

[MontanaFord]

#56752

I knew a guy one time that had a couple big male golden retrievers that pretty much had the run of his area, except when the coyotes made their circuit into that particular area. He was on his deck one night watching the dogs romp and chase mice in the pasture below his house, when out on the driveway along the pasture, a coyote showed up. The retrievers, of course, went running over to run off the intruder, who immediately went submissive. The dogs basically knew they were the dominant force at that point. The coyote started playing with the dogs, running back and forth, chasing and being chased. Well, the guy sat and watched until he saw movement on both sides of the driveway in the taller grass. He got his binoculars out, and started picking coyotes out of the grass. Six or eight of them. Not wanting to lose his bird dogs, he went in and got a rifle. He told me at the first shot, every coyote went from a crouch to an alert standing position, except the first coyote he aimed at. The dogs, realizing their plight, headed for the house. He got two more of the pack before they completely scattered. He said he didn’t see them back in his neck of the woods for over six months, and he never gave them a chance to “play” with the dogs again. He’d seen enough to know that when they pack up, they’re downright cagey and dangerous.

I don’t know about other areas, but it seems like around here, once winter starts to set in, they start packing up. Whether it’s family packs or just a pack instinct to get through when hunting is hardest and the game is bigger, I don’t know. But when I get into a big mess of tracks in the brush, or even out on the flats of eastern MT, I like to watch my back. What a lot of people don’t realize about coyotes, at least the ignorant non-hunting masses, is that their numbers are up from where they used to be. They are encroaching into the civilized and urbanized areas of our bigger cities. I’ve read several articles about coyotes threatening, or even nearly attacking people in their own yards in daylight. The urban areas I’m referring to that I can remember for sure are Denver and Los Angeles. The articles have been in both Field and Stream and Outdoor Life. It’s been a few years ago since I read the articles, but it amazes me that a creature that’s been hunted, trapped and persecuted as much as the coyote can rebound to the point where there’s more than when the white man first came to the Western country. Simply amazing. They’re smart, they’re adaptable. They’re here for good. Man can come and go, and the coyote will still be.

[SteveMcD]

#58376

Michael… there was a young lady killed in Maine by two coyotes in 2009. This was the only documented case of coyotes killing a human being. And yes there have been isolated attacks in surburbia… in those cases, the yotes turned out to be rabid. I bet if researched hard enough, we can find people bitten by mice too! I don’t disbute your story.. just isolated cases though.

[MontanaFord]

#58452

Actually, Steve, I’m going to correct the location of the attack. It happened in Nova Scotia at the Cape Breton Highlands National Park. Here’s the link to one of several articles:

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/717207–toronto-singer-killed-by-coyotes?bn=1

Here is another link to another site that catalogs a large number of reported coyote attacks on people:

http://varmintal.com/attac.htm

You are correct that most of the attacks were by rabid animals, yet some where due to the animals being conditioned to look at people as a source of food, similar to what happens with bears in our national parks.

People begin feeding the animals because they think the animals are cute. Down the road a little ways, the animal approaches a person looking for food, and when the animal is not rewarded at expected, becomes aggressive, possibly to the point of attacking. Really, it’s a tragedy caused by the ignorance that comes with being a human being.

The other scenario is that people simply tolerate the animal hanging around until the animal is comfortable coming closer and closer. Now enter the above scenario of feeding. Again, a tragedy.

Please do note, however, that I am not in any way grouping the “suburbanized” coyotes in with the truly wild coyotes we most often see while hunting. They are separate “breeds” if you will, from each other. The “wild” coyotes do avoid people at nearly all costs. Their “city-slicker” cousins not so much, as these are nearly always the ones that are found attacking people or pets.

[SteveMcD]

#58499

Yes that was it! Maine, Nova Scotia.. close enough! 😆

[MontanaFord]

#58508

Bad joke. Bad Mike.

[J-dog]

#15952

I think man goes wrong in trying to apply human emotions onto an animal. While I know that humans are animals no better no worse; we should not place human emotions onto a critter. We do not have yotes in suburbia but they have just arrived onto our hunting lands.
I also think that some folks will not kill certain critters. I really do not think I would care to kill a Mt. Lion? I would love to be in on the hunt as they are hunted with hounds and I love to hear hounds on a chase, (pure music right there), but to kill a lion in a tree?? for me? too cornered. Not a thing against hunting them and they should be hunted but I do not care to drop the string on one.
Yotes worry me as I like to hunt with my lab most of the time, even bowhunting. I am not worried abou them attacking me but they will try my dog. I will trap them this yr as I love to trap as well and will also shoot em when given the chance. While Mac is more than capable of handling a yote one on one when I get pics of them on a trail cam there are always more than one yote. When yotes smell me around or where i have been I want them to know/relate that a tougher/meaner predator is close by.

J

Anyone ever seen they film on wolves in Yellowstone where they show a coyote get killed by a pack of wolves?? that was gruesome, but in the end nature. Wolves kill off yotes (competition) as yotes kill foxes (competition). Wolves kill rival pack members if given chance (competition). Just the way it is. We look at killing as a very hard thing (not sure the right word? spiritual maybe?) for them it is life and a daily thing. Again, just the way it is.

Not thinking of eradicating them as they are needed, but I want them to have a healthy fear of human and things related to human.

Long post – but never have been to good at explaining myself?:?

J again

[J-dog]

#15977

Dave I been wanting to read a couple your books (Ghost Grizzlies and Heartsblood) maybe when they arrive they will change my view alittle!?

[David Petersen]

#17051

J — I hope not. I much like what you just had to say.

I’m just back from 2 weeks camping and hunting desert whitetails in remote AZ near the Mex border. Coyotes were my nightly entertainment. One morning a 35-pound yote came in and playfully chased off a ton of longhorn steer at the pond I was ambushing, then he/she drank with joy and the gusto of a life well lived, like me at happy hour. Another morning a family/pack of 3 came through and the last one sat down “Santa Fe style,” and barked and yelped his/her heart out for a good long while. “Oh, the joy!” In their turn, the deer still came. Why would anyone want to trade away the special thrill of being in the wild presence of coyotes or wolves or grizzly bears, for a few more deer or elk? I hunt to experience wildness, within as well as without. It’s all good by my dim lights. Up with diversity. dave

[mittenm]

#27611

Yes up with diversity Dave, but we also need to open up to a diversity of opinion. I realize your love for predators and you have little desire to kill one yourself, but I also see you opening up a little to the opinions of others versus hunting them. Out west you have such huge open space that I love as well, but the cover does not change that much during the course of a year. Here in Illinois we live and hunt among agriculture, so cover in the form of corn, soybeans, wheat, and even tall alfalfa and hey field are annually removed. This very sudden lack of cover moves many animals in very tight proximity into the woodlands and thickets remaining, including the deer and coyotes. In the approximate 2 square miles I hunt we annually take about 20 coyotes. (Me, I use a bow and only get about one per year). This year alone I have seen coyotes chasing deer fawns 5 different times. Of course I may get more time to hunt than other people and I’m hunting in a place of good deer density, but this was very surprising to me since I have not seen this activity so frequent in the past. There are however many more coyotes this year do to a good spring. I have not climbed out of my tree stand one single time this year without hearing the howl and barks of several family groups of coyotes call out to each other in the twilight. I have seen two different covey of quail this year on my place (they have been void in years past), but know they will have a tough time this spring. So I guess everything in moderation, and yes diversity is good. I like the coyotes, deer, turkey, quail, raccoons, fox, squirrels and pheasants, so I hunt them all when the time is right. Mike

[David Petersen]

#27713

Mike — good to see you here again, amigo. Indeed, different locations and conditions often dictate different hunting ethics, just as they do tactics. I try to make clear that my opinions are my own and I’m not leading a movement to have everyone else join me. This thread has had mostly voices like mine that don’t choose to hunt predators. Your opinion of course is welcome and valid, and other threads on the same topic have been dominated by those who do hunt predators. Here at tradbow we work hard at not having arguments, but rather enjoying open polite discussions. Thanks for adding your voice of experience to the topic. dave p

[Chiloquin]

#28758

David Petersen wrote: J — I hope not. I much like what you just had to say.

I’m just back from 2 weeks camping and hunting desert whitetails in remote AZ near the Mex border. Coyotes were my nightly entertainment. One morning a 35-pound yote came in and playfully chased off a ton of longhorn steer at the pond I was ambushing, then he/she drank with joy and the gusto of a life well lived, like me at happy hour. Another morning a family/pack of 3 came through and the last one sat down “Santa Fe style,” and barked and yelped his/her heart out for a good long while. “Oh, the joy!” In their turn, the deer still came. Why would anyone want to trade away the special thrill of being in the wild presence of coyotes or wolves or grizzly bears, for a few more deer or elk? I hunt to experience wildness, within as well as without. It’s all good by my dim lights. Up with diversity. dave

I absolutely agree Dave. I would hate to enter the woods that have no, yotes, cats, or bears, but the balance here in Oregon is disturbed, and we are losing our blacktails. Cats, which normally are hard to find, are stalking the low lands as they have out grown the wilderness. I saw more bears last year then bucks, and I’m not alone. Odfw has tried to curve the problem by offering residents the chance at 3, count them 3 bears per person per year! Oregon is over ran with big predators. I’m afraid they are going to eat themselves out of house and home. I do not want to live in a world without these animals, I almost feel a kinship to them, but if their numbers aren’t controlled I feel we will eventually lose them.

[Treetopflier]

#29068

Chiloquin said, “they have out grown the wilderness.”
Well it seems to me that we have a logical, if not easy, fix here: get more wilderness! I like the way you guys “argue” so politely and I’m trying to learn to be as good as you at this tough stuff. And like you, I’d sure rather be hunting. 😛 ttf

[rayborbon]

#29076

The problem I have with some of the writing on this topic is that they paint people in such a light that they should feel guilty and that they are violating nature because they hunt predators. There are several words sprinkled in here and there which bear this tone that I mention. If your intent is to work hard at having a conversation yet casting a dim light on others who choose to hunt predators for any reason then it seems like a contradiction to me.

Predator hunting is a fantastic activity with some very interesting and challenging subjects. I particularly enjoy hunting bears for the most part and they eat real well if they have been foraging on berries for example. As a matter of fact a very large black bear will provide much more meat than a large mule deer.

I have tolerated the tone of others messages here and been mostly respectful or otherwise ignored remarks of political nature from a select few. However if I even cross the line in the sand I have been reminded that I am on the radar. Well I just talk like I would at any camp fire and if you get a little snooty then I’ll raise that up a little and fire it back at you.

As to the predator hunting – It bears true that they need their ranks thinning from time to time. Considering how many people predator hunt versus ungulates for example, we can see that there is potential for problems without doing a multi million dollar scientific study by self proclaimed experts who have nothing to gain but recognition and job security.

[Chiloquin]

#29224

Treetopflier wrote: Chiloquin said, “they have out grown the wilderness.”
Well it seems to me that we have a logical, if not easy, fix here: get more wilderness! I like the way you guys “argue” so politely and I’m trying to learn to be as good as you at this tough stuff. And like you, I’d sure rather be hunting. 😛 ttf

My point is if they are coming in town to eat, what are they doing to the elk and deer in the woods!

I have a TON of respect for Dave, He is doing great things promoting the way hunting should be. There is no way I would “argue” with him, but the situation in Oregon is a hard one due to the ban of dog and bait hunting–and I was offering information for an open mind to chew on, as our circumstances here are out of balance.

I will not poke at anyone here!

Nate

[loneviking]

#35770

Good post by Steve, and I know about watching that fire die out. I was about 13 or 14, and there was a Redtail Hawk that kept after the chickens in the coop, and even managed to make off with one of them. I fixed the coop back up and run off this hawk three or four times. One day I hear the chickens going nuts and grabbed the old .410 to go see what was going on.

Here’s this hawk, hovering in the air and yanking on the chicken wire with his claws! I figured I’d given him enough chances to change his ways and opened up with the shotgun. The blast knocked him out of the sky and over on the other side of the coop. I ran over there in time to watch the fire fade from those fierce yellow eyes.

I’ve never been one to hunt predators without a very good reason. I just can’t see shooting one for sport. But, there are times when the numbers need thinning. I live close to Lake Tahoe, and we have a real bear problem up there now. So much so that Nevada has just created a bear hunt for this year. The bears are way too numerous, and they aren’t even hibernating over the winter anymore.

The thinking is that the bears are living on people food which doesn’t give them the nutrition they need to hibernate. They don’t get fat enough, and the junk food creates cravings for more junk food. The bears are only denning up for a week, maybe two and then they are back out again. So, time to thin the numbers out, but it’s something I’d do with regret.

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#37049

I’m not going to kill something unless I’m going to eat it. Hunting just for sport isn’t something I can get with.

[chainsaw]

#25225

I enjoy hunting and trapping coyotes and make no apologies. If it is not for you, fine. I find sitting on my rear end in a tree stand waiting for a whitetail to amble on by not much of a “sport” but I could care less if others enjoy it. Coyote hunting provides a great deal of winter time activity for me and I utilize/sell the pelts that are harvested.

[Author]

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