poor performing EFOC arrow

[Ptaylor]

#6521

My 2014 hunting is over. And I thought I’d share this experience to help me and anyone else maybe learn something from it.

Last week I had a buck come in to where I was waiting right at first light. He checked out a scrape 5 yards from me, but on the other side of a tree. Then stepped out 6-7 yards but a hanging limb blocked his vitals. When he took his next step he was broadside at 8 yards with a clear shooting lane. I took the shot and it looked good. After waiting I started following the trail. Found the arrow in about 60 yards, and it was immediately clear I did not get the penetration I needed. A good blood trail allowed me to follow him for about 500-600 yards where he went out on a peninsula. At this point I knew a few things. 1) I didn’t hit both lungs, heart, or major artery. 2) I did hit one lung, cause he coughed up a small puddle of blood with bubbles in it. 3) He was cornered on the peninsula. So I went to get a friend and posted him where the peninsula joined the mainland to watch for the buck, and 3 hours after shooting him, I took up the trail. After another 200 yards and all the way at the end of the peninsula, the buck stood up from his bed. Too thick to shoot, I tried to maneuver for another shot and he jumped out of there. (I should have backed out immediately when he stood up I now know). We thought we’d wait until the morning. Well, a storm rolled in and rained everything out. Tried bringing in a dog, but she couldn’t figure anything out. I spent a day crawling through the thickets out there (most of which are covered in poison ivy). But never recovered him, and in the past week have not seen any scavenging birds. The other guy who hunts here has had injured deer jump off the peninsula and swim across the bay. At this point I’ve concluded I have failed to recover that animal.

My arrow is a Gold Tip traditional carbon shaft, 30″, 300 grain Tufhead, no external or internal footing, 722 grains, 30.25% EFOC, I forget the spine but its low. My bow is a pacific yew selfbow, about 60 pounds pull and 68 inches long. I hit either the scapula or humerus, not sure. But still hit one lung.

I’m seriously considering buying a modern laminate bow, which will hopefully have more power and speed without changing the way I like to hunt (requiring a close encounter). I’ve killed 2 animals with selfbows, and know its possible. But feel like I need more power, and a more reliably accurate bow. I’ve never shot laminate bows, but my friend that recently made a selfbow said they (selfbows) are much harder to aim.

As a side note, I’ve heard of a guy, friend of a friend, who has hit 2 bucks this season with a compound and 3 blade broadheads in the shoulder, and neither shot penetrated deep enough to hit even one lung.

I would appreciate any feedback comparing the efficiency of selfbows and laminates.

Preston

[Doc Nock]

#52185

Preston,

That is a sad tale and I know you feel badly. Those incidents stay with a hunter for a long time… my condolences.

I’m not the person with a ton of kills, like some here, but enough to have some thoughts I’d like to share:

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a 500-600 blood trail and you assume it’s a one lung shot? 500 yard trail reinforces that assumption, but a good blood trail seems a bit suspect to me for that far.

Deer, in fall, having lived on green lush stuff all summer are packed with VitK to withstand the battles of the rut, nature’s provision, and they can take tremendous injury and endure…at least for a time.’).'”).”n

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There are many factors in your story that could relate to the occurrence beyond just penetration or failure of EFOC. Power is one of them, entrance angle and/or deflection can be another, either before it enters the animal or as it’s entering.

Sharpness of head… you have a winning combination, in your equipment, but it’s always easier to look to our set up than to factors beyond the equipment.

You already know that you should have backed off when you jumped the deer…at the great distance it traveled, one lung is a good assumption, but the amount of blood trail suggests a serious wound. Anytime, I’m taught, that a deer hasn’t lay down within 100 yards of where shot, you need to back off and wait.

subtle hiccups with wild critters can surely cause a loss. Such thick cover could mean you were within FEET of it, and not know it… I’ve found deer I shot in the worst 15′ high cane briars and how they got there, I’ll never know… but in their dying breath, they seek cover. Even scavengers may not yet have been able to locate that deer in such a thick environment.

At the range you shot, with the equipment you have, there is little to suggest equipment failure…location could be an issue… and while EFOC does much, along with COImpact heads to enhance penetration thru bone, it’s not foolproof. Not suggesting anyone’s a fool here, don’t read that… just that it’s not a rifle bullet and I just talked to several people who had pretty bizarre experience relating to deer tenacity with center fire rifles!

Had you hit a shoulder blade, a normal head, may have never penetrated…but it would appear that your head did penetrate enough to get the one lung… and cause excessive bleeding for that long, long trail you followed…

Your own words show that penetration with compounds was lacking where you obviously got decent penetration…

Laminate bows can produce more energy, perhaps, but 60# self bow at your short range, suggests, perhaps, location of wound entry was more the culprit.

Also, without knowing actual #’s, that high FOC, 60# draw and then saying you had a low spine arrow makes me scratch my head. Granted, Preston, I shoot “laminate” bows with center shot, and from what I’ve heard, most self bows are way not center shot by design and require lesser spine arrows to wrap around the riser on release.

So many variables. only two solid conclusions:

* you may have hit shoulder blade and only gotten one lung as you suggest.

*You now know that you should have backed off when the trail went that far and given that deer time to lie down and die!

Again, my condolences. Accuracy is way above penetration I would think. If you’re concerned with what your friend said, about not being as accurate with a self bow, does that mean that you are not sure of how accurate YOU are with YOUR bow? That could be critical part of the equation…

Let’s not assume 😳 that EFOC is to blame…there are just waaay too many “unknowns” here that may have over-shadowed what EFOC can over-come. As assumptions go, if you’d have used a lesser BH and lesser EFOC, it might have just stuck in whatever limited the penetration and done no harm…as it was, you had excessive blood trail but no recovery.

Focus on those things that you can control….accuracy, etc. More than once, I’ve short drawn when excited or eased up on back tension when I had to wait on a deer to hit a shooting lane, and got poorer flight. 3D shoots helped me learn that more than anything…

Good luck on the next one…dont’ give up…just work on the small details… KNOW you are accurate with your set up and confidence will bring success!

[lbman77]

#52212

Ptaylor, thanks for sharing your experience. Not being able to physically walk through the whole scene, I won’t speculate on what happened, except to say that, sometimes, we can do everything right and something can still go wrong. That sounds like the case with your experience.

Also, your FOC calculation sounds off, based on your arrow setup. I base that statement on my own setup, which is a Carbon Express Pass Thru Extreme Small diameter (10.32 gpi) @ 29 3/16″ knock-to-end of shaft, not including insert; total shaft-only weight without feathers: 297.9 gr.), 235 gr. Kodiak, 75 gr. adapter, 40 gr. insert, 20 additional gr. behind the adapter. Total arrow weight is roughly 668 gr., and weight up front hovers around 370 gr. With that setup, the alaskabowhunting.com FOC calculator calculates mine @ 27.08%. That’s not saying your’s isn’t high, but possibly not as high as you’re thinking. I could very well be wrong, it’s just that the numbers you gave didn’t seem to add up to that EFOC, on the surface, anyway.

I know you have a bad taste in your mouth with selfbows now, but I wouldn’t give up on them quite yet. Now that your season is over, take that time to do some dignostics and see if you can figure what went wrong. Something that came to me as I’m writing this: you mentioned a fairly heavy-weight bow with a low spine arrow and heavier-than-normal head weight (compared to most archery “standards”). Could it be that the arrow wigged and wagged on it’s way to it’s mark, didn’t hit straight on, and that caused poor penetration? I’ve noticed a marked reduction in penetration on my arrows when that happens. Luckily, I’m only killing foam.

Anyway, I’d like to know how you fare, as any info helps us all.

Best regards

[Ptaylor]

#52228

Doc Nock wrote: a 500-600 blood trail and you assume it’s a one lung shot? 500 yard trail reinforces that assumption, but a good blood trail seems a bit suspect to me for that far.

Anytime, I’m taught, that a deer hasn’t lay down within 100 yards of where shot, you need to back off and wait.

subtle hiccups with wild critters can surely cause a loss. Such thick cover could mean you were within FEET of it, and not know it… I’ve found deer I shot in the worst 15′ high cane briars and how they got there, I’ll never know…

At the range you shot, with the equipment you have, there is little to suggest equipment failure…location could be an issue.

Also, without knowing actual #’s, that high FOC, 60# draw and then saying you had a low spine arrow makes me scratch my head. Granted, Preston, I shoot “laminate” bows with center shot, and from what I’ve heard, most self bows are way not center shot by design and require lesser spine arrows to wrap around the riser on release.

Accuracy is way above penetration I would think. If you’re concerned with what your friend said, about not being as accurate with a self bow, does that mean that you are not sure of how accurate YOU are with YOUR bow? That could be critical part of the equation…

Focus on those things that you can control….accuracy, etc. More than once, I’ve short drawn when excited or eased up on back tension when I had to wait on a deer to hit a shooting lane, and got poorer flight. 3D shoots helped me learn that more than anything…

Hey Doc, Thanks for your thoughts. Here are some responses:

I know I hit a lung because of the bubbles in a small pool of blood he coughed up (I’m assuming coughed up, not bled out of entry wound.) But not both lungs, heart, or artery because of how long he lived (+ 3 hours).

You’re right, I should have waited even longer on not seeing him go down right away.

Again, you’re right. The brush is thick enough that I would have had to step on him, and there are certainly places I could have missed in my search. As well as the vultures/crows could have missed.

I agree, I hit a large bone, which really is problem here. I felt good about the shot, distance, just must have been a couple inches off.

I experimented with all spines available in the weight head I wanted, and when I found the right spine, cut it down in 1/8″ increments until the arrows flew straight without feathers. So I think they were matched correctly to the bow. It is very NOT center shot, and the low spine had me thinking the bow is kind of sluggish.

I know how accurate I am, when shooting at a target. And have prescribed a maximum shot range of 12 yards on myself. This guy was well within that range. But I still struggle with buck fever, which (as you know from a previous post) can greatly influence my accuracy. I just can’t figure out how to get over that without shooting in real hunting situations.

I’ve learned previously that I can’t hold back and wait to shoot. I need to aim, draw, release. Which is what I did, but maybe released too early. Not sure about that point Doc.

[Ptaylor]

#52232

lbman77,

When I get home I’ll go through and recalculate my FOC.

[Doc Nock]

#52255

Thanks for taking my post in the vein it was intended, Preston.

I couldn’t see that post show up…so thought it got lost in cyber space.

I’ve often said and still believe, Archery is a game of inches

EFOC will go a LONG WAY toward maximize recoveries, but it’s not fool proof.

Arrows must all wrap around the riser with finger release, and with a larger shy of center, like IBO-legal longbows and most self bows, it’s greater shy of center, requiring a lighter/softer spine to allow it to wrap around the extra riser material and then come back in line and stay straight…

Regardless how high your FOC, how fast that particular arrow recovers from paradox is something I cannot speculate upon. I have no basis other’n SWAG (Scientific wild A$$ guess) to wonder…(WONDER) if a lighter spine shaft takes longer to come out of paradox than stiffer?

If so, at that closer range, it may still have been noodling a bit and thus hit slightly off…but you say that set up shot fine in practice. As we all know (or should) standing on your two feet, with zero pressure, one can hit full draw and use back tension well…under field conditions, and pressure of presence of game, it’s totally different…

I had a bow string that would “stretch” a lot in the heat…and it was a wellmade flemish type… I noticed at a summer 3D that I was hitting way low and the flight was squirrely. I checked the brace…way low. Wound it up to where it was to be and bada bing…back on target.

Simple stick bows can be so complex in the things that affect their performance and my hat’s off to you for using a self bow… I cannot shoot them to save my soul! The hand shock in 99% is so great, I think my fillings are going to switch teeth, but in 20 shots, my elbows ache so badly, I quit.

Again, my ONLY point is there are SO MANY variables involved, that it would be unwise to lay the failure at the foot of EFOC that has proven itself in so many ways, under varying conditions, that perhaps its something a bit closer to ‘home’…

Good to examine all factors when game is lost…shows conscience! Excellent! But don’t get miopic and miss the variables

[Ptaylor]

#52318

I agree the title of this post may be misleading. I just thought we need to share all our experiences with these arrow setups. If we only talk about the successes and do not mention the failures, then we are only tooting our own horns.

[Doc Nock]

#52441

I would agree with you the thread has considerable value. Its good that folks realize that EFOC is not a cure all for every situation… but it has convinced me thru field experience that it surely does improve things.

I had all the right set up, but used one of those pull thru sharpeners and got them super sharp… but they’d dull for some reason in my quiver and I’d re-sharpen (touch up) every other evening. WT?

Turns out that tool created a very thin 19* bevel that was sharp going in but very dull coming out. I got two holes, but it slowed enough (due to becoming dull inside the deer?) that the deer when shot and took off to run, would snap off the head of the shaft with the offside shoulder, leaving the arrow inside the deer plugging the holes! They dropped in sound or sight, so I got them, but if it’d been off a skosh, then what?

I got the KME system, learned it from Ron and now get complete pass through with the same set up… was it a sharpness thing? Dunno, but I now have a 25* bevel and it’s way, way more durable.

Refinements are infinite in this game of sticks… and it is a game of inches…

[Stephen Graf]

#53103

I know the hype around self bows is that if they are well made, they are every bit as fast as a laminated glass bow. I guess I’ve just never seen a “well made” self bow.

I know the tug you feel. The self bow is so romantic. If I could make it work, that’s what I would use. But alas, imho they just don’t come close to a laminated bow for power.

My compromise is to use an American Semi-Log bow of my own construction. It is at least in the same general shape as a self bow. And when it comes to shooting heavy arrows, it shoots about as powerfully as any hybrid or recurve bow.

I shot a 6 pointer a few days ago in which I had an imperfect shot. The deer moved (predictably) and the arrow split the scapula’s on both sides and some ribs too. The arrow did not pass through. If the arrow does not pass through, that is clear evidence that something went bad. But the deer went about 200 yds and expired. Whew!

Point being, if the bow didn’t have the required power, I would not have recovered the deer. It is a 55lb bow which shoots a 650 grain arrow about 165 fps.

I like to shoot bows at 160 fps or better. Deer move too much to accept any lower speed. I would use a lighter arrow and give up some FOC in order to get the speed back.

As others have said, accuracy is more important than FOC.

Self bows just can’t get to 160 fps. So I just can’t use them. That’s just me.

Bottom line for me is I don’t shoot any setup without getting some speed numbers on a crono. I know that will rub some the wrong way, but for me it’s necessary.

[Ptaylor]

#53182

Steve Graf wrote: My compromise is to use an American Semi-Log bow of my own construction. It is at least in the same general shape as a self bow. And when it comes to shooting heavy arrows, it shoots about as powerfully as any hybrid or recurve bow.

I shot a 6 pointer a few days ago in which I had an imperfect shot. The deer moved (predictably) and the arrow split the scapula’s on both sides and some ribs too. The arrow did not pass through. If the arrow does not pass through, that is clear evidence that something went bad. But the deer went about 200 yds and expired. Whew!

That’s impressive Steve. Illuminate me. What is an American Semi-long bow?

[Stephen Graf]

#53216

Otherwise known as a “Hill Style Bow” I have spent several years building/designing a bow that won’t mess your bow arm elbow up (Learned that lesson on the fist few bows which gave me terrible tendonitis in my elbow)

It’s an easy design to build yourself, yet offers infinite opportunities for exploring design and function. And in my opinion is the perfect mate for an efoc arrow fronted with a single bevel pile.

As Leopold said “he who catches a trout with his own fly has scored two coups, not one” The joy of killing a deer with your own bow is known only tho those who make it themselves. I am sure you know what I mean, seeing you’ve done so with your self bows.

[Doc Nock]

#53250

Well put, Steve.

I only had owned one self bow, made by a fine bowyer of such genre’ but it was not of my building. And yes, I learned shooting them suckers about tendonitis and quit! Sold that bow… too finicky.

Kirk at Bigfoot has a design for those who like the “hill style” without the teeth rattle, but it’s not a self-bow, but laminated.

I lamented “heavy arrow” to Dr. Ed once and we had to laugh how we bugged arrow makers to make heavier carbon…now we want them strong, stiff but lighter so we can load the front.

I buy lighter weight, heavy spine shafts (target usually) and then use over-footing… I know Kirk built my longbow (3piece T/D) with health R/D in i t and get superior speed… and I shoot about a 600 gr. arrow but most of the weight is up front…

I would never have commented to self bow’s ability. I know too many die-hards who are very enamored with them, but your take makes a lot of sense.

Lots of variables in this game of sticks…

[Ptaylor]

#40566

When I first made the yew bow, we put it on a scale at bow shop and it pulled to 60 pounds at my draw length. Putting it back on the scale it now draws to 45 pounds. So over the last 4 years it has dropped considerably in weight. The first 2 years I was using wood arrows, really heavily spined. But 2 years ago I switched to carbon to make an EFOC arrow. This was when I had to drop pretty low in spine weight. Now I know why. I think the bow is kind of sluggish. Not that it can’t kill something with an accurate shot (it’s what I used for a bear a couple years ago). But I don’t think it had the power to drive through a bone as far as I needed on that white-tail, even with an EFOC-tuffhead arrow.

So I decided as much as I enjoy making selfbows, I am switching to a laminate longbow with more power. For this year I purchased a used Whisperstick, 55 pounds at 28″ (my draw length), recurve decurve. It is noticeably stronger and faster than my yew bow. I am having a custom bow made, and will have it ordered to 50 pounds. I put together some arrows. Gold Tip traditional shafts, 5575, cut down to 29″, with 100 grain inserts and 300 grain Tuffheads. This set up definitely shoots harder than my previous one. And the laminate bow is really pleasing to shoot.

[Doc Nock]

#40621

Don’t know flip about building bows, but did share I used to hang on a primitive site and read all their stuff…

You could likely bring that YEW bow back to full power with a bit of backing…Read about some using linen, some using baleen, some bamboo and sinew… really snaps them up…

Course, one reason I don’t mess with selfies is the ones I shot rattled my teeth! 😯 I tend to have elbow tendons blow out easily with vibration of any sort… running garden tillers, etc or shooting shocky bows! 😉

I just couldn’t get used to all the care and fussing that self bows required to keep them in trim… 😯

[kingwouldbe]

#51214

First, it ain’t the arrow…….. it’s the Indian, ( no disrespect meant ) yes, high EFOC can have advantages, however it’s not a magic arrow, just a very good arrow, with proven advantages.

As has been said, there are so many variables to each and every shot, it some times is amazing we can kill anything.

With that said, my 2cents wouldbe, buck fever, short draw, then arrow over spined because did not get to full draw, staying in paradox longer, blacked out at the shot, did not hit where you aimed, buck moved at the shot……..etc.

This is the offside humerus bone from a hog shot with a 50lb longbow, 550 grain arrow with a tuffhead, after it blew a chunk off of the ball socket.

We all strive to become the best hunter we can be, however, we hunt in a moving world, with live animals, that can and do move, in an environment that can be hostile to both man & beast.

[Ptaylor]

#56950

Kingwouldbe,

Yep, you’re right. I’m not trying to make excuses for my mistakes. And definitely not blaming the equipment as the only reason I didn’t kill that buck. Mostly, I wanted to share an experience which did not go well, with an arrow set up for EFOC-Ashby style broadhead.

It was a tense minute, every second waiting for that guy to smell me and bust out of there, having him feet away but a hanging bunch of leaves blocking his vitals, then he’s steps out pst the leaves and the shot happens. Who, but the gods of the hunt, really know what my form looked like in that moment.

I’m not quitting on EFOC arrows Ashby style broadheads. Cause it has worked for me. But we have to share all experiences with them, not just the good ones.

No disrespect felt. I enjoy your input.

Preston

[Doc Nock]

#56995

Preston,

I’d hope others feel as I do that there is no Holy Grail about EFOC or disrespect to share and you’ve worked thru a lot of data about your set up…

45 # and sluggish might have a lot to do with the outcome… you’re making amends with composite bow to increase stored energy. Kudos to you!

The common thread here is that EFOC has advantages, but is not a “silver bullet” of arrows.

If he was that (deer) hinked out, he could have dropped out enough to impact the shot impact site…

I had a deer once take ONE STEP more as it was walking slowly and in that step, turned toward me a half step that resulted in ONE lung and liver, not double lung… Gagged me but it did her in…pass thru with single bevel and it really ripped what it touched…the old S curve wound channel…she luckly didn’t go far.

You did all you could…and have assessed your equipment now and figured out a better way. Sad to lose an animal, but you did well to persevere and try your best!

Good luck this coming year!

[Forresterwoods]

#34440

I would suggest 5/16 hardwoods with 11/32 footings. A friend bagged an Asian Water buffalo with one that was buried to the fletching. The animal went 30 yards. I’ve heard reports of pass throughs on relatively new targets.

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