Home › Forums › Campfire Forum › Please don’t kick me off the forum… (this is a long one, so grab a beer and happy labor day)
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OK, this will probably not make me any friends, and might actually get me tarred, feathered and stoned, but here goes. With hunting season fast approaching, and many of us already having plans, I have wondered (as I looked at web sites and magazine ads) about one of those dirty little words. That’s right… HUNTING PRESERVES.
Dave, sorry, I know you probably loath this topic as much, if not more, than ATVs, but I just want to play devil’s advocate. I am not making a case for anything nor am I trying to sell anything. This has just been a topic that has bugged me for a while. If you are not busy making voodoo dolls of me to set ablaze, read on, and I really am interested in opinions. This is my opinion and not fact so please remember; I am pretty new to hunting and traditional gear in general, so I am always open to learning. Here goes:
I started hunting a few years ago. My first trip was to a preserve. I paid $300 for a chance at a whitetail doe. I came home empty handed. My second trip was out to SGL (State Game Lands) 205 in Lehigh County, PA on the Monday after Thanksgiving season opener. If that had been my first trip, I would never have gone hunting again.
Why a Hunting Preserve?
For new hunters, like myself, it is an excellent way to start. Yes, it is possible to drop $12K on a “record book” buck, but it is just as easy to find a very reasonable deal on a doe. This will introduce you to the act without having to shell out loads of cash (rifles are available in many preserves, along with ammo).
Another advantage is the educational value. Since a guide is mandatory (they don’t want you paying for a doe and wind up accidentally taking their prize buck), you can ask questions and get tips (shot placement, where the animals are, how they act, etc) from someone who is at the very least more knowledgeable than you. Another teaching point comes after the kill. I did go back to XYZ Hunting Preserve (not the real name) and I did connect with a doe (2 actually, both with my .44 lever action). Had this been in the wild, I would have probably managed to bring home a hoof and a lower jaw by the time I was done field dressing that poor deer. Instead, the guide was more than happy to do it for me while I watched. The second doe I took (the following year) I asked the guide if I could help. He said “No”, then he handed me the blade and said “I’ll talk you through it”. Believe me, the confidence I have for when I do get my own deer is quite high that I will not waste most of the animal by the simple process of field dressing.
Exotics: Here is another area that a preserve can have some value. If you are stuck in one part of the country where wildlife is limited to your basic whitetail, gobbler, small game (like me here in PA), you will need to travel quite a ways if you would like to try your hand at something else. When you factor in the cost of travel, licenses, lodging, guides, car rentals, food, etc, you are (sometimes) looking at quite a hefty fee. To add to the strain, some places have lotteries that out-of-staters do not have that good a chance of winning. And if you do win, the prep time can be minimal.
Last point to make here is kids. I know, it’s not fair to bring kids into a grown up discussion, but our children are the future of hunting, so they need to have a part in all of our discussions. If either of my children shows an interest towards hunting, their first experience will be at a preserve. You can judge me if you want, but go back to what I said about SGL 205. I do not think I can expose my children to that sort of “crowd” and expect them to have any positive outlook on hunting. I am sorry for generalizing. I am also sorry to my fellow Pennsylvanians. If you take offense to what I said, I am probably not talking about you. But if you have ever been to a SGL that is close to a major city (Philadelphia in my case) for any season opener, you know what I am talking about. To pay $300 for my kids to take a doe in peace, while being able to take their time and actually enjoy the process is worth every penny. Not to mention the safety aspect. I could go on, but I am sure my name is being cursed, so I will go to the “why not” as fast as possible…
Why NOT a Hunting Preserve:
Ok, so I pleaded my case. While it may seem that I work for one of these places, I assure you that I do not. I am a Registered Nurse in my civilian job and in the Army Reserves. I volunteer as a Hunter-Trapper Educator and Successful Bowhunting Instructor for the Pennsylvania Game Commission, and I am in the process of becoming a Deputy Wildlife Conservation Officer (my way of giving back). So I cannot list the ups without listing the downs. First, preserves are probably the ultimate in SLOB magnets. I mean, how great is it to not only not need to scout and practice, but to also not have to do anything but wake up and make sure the check clears? And the animals are often on the receiving end of some pretty cruel treatment. I cannot lie. I am guilty. The first time when I came home empty handed, it was not because I did not see a doe, or have a shot at a doe, it was because I wounded and could not recover the doe. Even with the guide following the blood trail, the doe was wounded, but not dead. This was the worst feeling I have ever had. I injured an animal for, basically, no reason. It was in pain, and would probably die a slow death. My stomach still gets ill every time I talk about it. What happened? Buck fever? Twitch? Jumped the bullet? No. I was using a .44, but not my rifle. I had a Ruger handgun with a scope. It looked cool. I didn’t practice that much, but I was going to a preserve. They would tie a deer to a tree and I would shoot it. Right? Actually, no. The place I went to demonstrates morals, which is why I went back the following year. This time, it was a .44 lever action (I sold the Ruger) with which I could hit the vitals from 50 yards 10 out of 10 times, every time. The deer I took were at half that distance and none would have made to me before dying. Yes, a preserve can attract SLOBS, and animals can be on the short-end of the deal as there are usually no restrictions on weapons, times, etc, but the same can be said for modern arms and hunting advertising? I mean “Bone Collector”, “Dead Down Wind”, “The Grim Reaper”, what is the message? And let’s bring crossbows into it since they are allowed during archery season. You see my point?
Since we’re speaking or children, what kind of message does it send when they go to take an animal from a fenced area? Well, OK, I see that argument as not being a “positive” message, but what about watching a hunting show? 4 days of hunting on a preserve for the exact buck they wanted all conduced to 30 minutes including time for commercials. Point is, it is our (the parents) responsibility to teach ethics. That goes for hunting, that goes for everything else.
Lastly, the argument can be made that “only the rich…”. Well, can’t the same argument be made for dropping $25K plus to hunt polar bear or elephant? Not everyone can afford to hunt some species, but should we hold it against those who can?
I did not go to the preserve this year. Ever since that custom bow touched my hand, I just wanted to “complete” the act, so to speak. When I got my arrows, adjusted my brace height (thanks to all who responded to that post), shot from all sorts of positions, actually hit what I was aiming for… I knew I would be out in the woods and deer or no deer, I would be happy. Problem is, I fell in love. I still plan to go for elk, maybe bear, definitely whitetail, but I am absolutely in love with fallow and axis deer. I just found out that I could hunt them a few hours from the house at a preserve, but I started to feel bad. Even though the preserve stresses the fair-chase conditions, the thoughts of my first doe flooded my mind, and I started to have doubts. It costs much less than flying to Europe to find a fallow deer, but with my new-found “freedom” it somehow feels “dirty”. I was hoping to get your thoughts.
Just to stir the pot, there are many honest, ethical preserves out there. There are also many SLOB places. I don’t believe in painting everyone with one broad brush stroke. So what are your thoughts? “Hope you’re not too miffed, Byeeee!” (a quarter for anyone who can tell me where that quote is from, [hint] Wexbow might have an advantage here).
Alex
😕
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It better not get nasty. 8)
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And Grandpa is listening too. Not talking (for once), just listening … until the bulls start bugling here, at which point I’ll listen to nothing else until it’s over. 😛
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Happy Labor Day to you as well.
But I threw up a little in my mouth at the thought.
Bales are for practice. IMHO game should be hunted where they are free. I know not all preserves/pens are the same – but I have only seen what I consider game farms where the prey is shot at the feed troughs. Granted, I know some hunters condition “free range” deer and bear to arrive when desired with feed timers. That sickens me as well.
It should be all about a kill at any cost.
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My feelings on the subject are a matter of record, so everyone knows that I disagree. But I’m doing so politely. Don
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Every one is entitled to their opinion and free will and while I respect and understand your position on the topic, I feel otherwise and am only going to type this response as an open view for others to ponder.
Game preserves, in my opinion, take away from what hunting truly should be. There’s little to no skill required to take game in an altered or otherwise ‘manufactured’ environment. I understand the position you take in stating that beginners can learn how to hunt on a preserve, but beg to differ, as the environment has no value to the educational advance of being in the wild of the woods, scouting, finding and taking game in a naturally ocurring circumstance. One might argue that calling game and the use of decoys alter the environment, but these are skills learned and use by the hunter to harvest game and are in no way, shape or form, in my opinion, akin to feeders, fences or baiting practices.
On the topic of youngsters, my daughter is 13 years old and if she decides she would like to try hunting, I would much rather take her to the woods prior to an open season to learn the habits and activities of the animals we pursue, with hopes that she may round the circle in harvesting an animal. “Sit here, they’ll be in to feed in an hour”, doesn’t sit well with me. I’d rather she learn something that I’ve learned and can pass on to her, as opposed to having someone else be her hero for setting her up to take a trained or captive animal.
While I don’t feel that those who wish to kill an animal on a game preserve are any less hunters than the rest of the world, I will say that one can only take from an experience what one is willing to put into it. I am one who enjoys going all the way in anything I set out to do, so my reward is entirely fulfilling. Likewise, if one only wants the opportunity to kill something and nothing more, then this is their right and/or priveledge.
Just my $.02
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In TX it’s legal to bait, on top of that because of land rights that date back to TX independance in the 1830’s land owners can pretty much do what they want with their land and their wildlife. There are ranches that are enclosed with 12 ft high fences using the excuse that we want to grow trophy deer and not have our neighbors kill any trophy prospects.
To me there isn’t a differance in this or a game preserve. Lot’s of Texans will say a deer can hide in an acre of land, that’s true but he still can’t escape to safety.
If TX Parks and Wildlife Dept would outlaw baiting and high fence ranches, I could still find a lease that didn’t cost $3K or better.
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television has exposed the outdoors to the concrete jungle n people raised without any experiential knowledge of huntin an most likely have no idea where to start nor access to anyone who does, who fall in love with huntin, preserves can be a steppin stone. I made my first longbow 33 yrs ago ,my brother n I terrorized every critter wild and domestic my butt still hurts when I think about pap’s prize ginny chickins an that mean turkey i’m not sorry about. we chased bunnies groundhogs chipmunks n yes trout, I would never hunt a preserve for many reasons but who am I to decide anothers trophy for him.
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Hunting an animal and shooting an animal arent always the same thing. Hunting in a wilderness setting can be enjoyed whether we fill a tag or not.
There are lots of ways to learn how to dress an animal, buy a weaner pig and raise it 3 months, by a 4H hog, throw a roadkill deer in the truck, lots of opportunities. A preserve is only one.
If I want a youngster to be ‘successful’ I guess Id have to do some work defining what a successful hunt can be.
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Last year I took my daughter on her first hunt shortly after her 14th birthday. We were trying to fill a spring turkey tag or two with our bows from the confines of a popup blind. The first morning we saw several deer, a few coyotes, two black bears (a long way out of their established range) and two huge tom turkeys beyond her bow range but well within mine. She never drew, and I never nocked an arrow. She still smiles when she talks about that weekend, and actually gave a speech in school about it last week (got an A+ on it too).
That fall was her first deer season. Opening morning she had two or three does within bow range, but a touch before first legal light. She never even took her bow off the hook; she knew to take the shot would be illegal.
This spring we again hunted turkeys with our bows and had nothing but a hen in front of the blind to show for it. Regardless, we both had a great time, even though our unfilled 2012 spring turkey tags now join our unfilled ones from 2011. As soon as she’s out of her leg cast and able to hunt, she will once again try to take her first animal with her bow…in the tail end of her second year as a bowhunter. And since my wife is taking up bowhunting this fall, I now have the pleasure of helping two new hunters attempt to take their first animal.
Maybe it will happen this year. Maybe it won’t. By design, there are no guarantees with fair chase hunting of free range animals. And all three of us wouldn’t have it any other way.
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J – nice story! My 12 year old girl is shooting with me and getting pretty good, but she isn’t interested in hunting (although she wants to go with me to see what it’s like this fall…)
I’m on the fence about this whole issue 🙄 but if I could push a button and get rid of all pay-to-play outfits and insure the future of our public lands and democratic management model, I would. Nothing could stop me.
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It is my feeling that preserves are just hunting to kill.
I am not in that market.
To me, and this is just my opinion, I am a hunter and don’t think of myself as a killer.
You stated that you paid $300.00 to hunt a doe and came away with nothing. Why not do that for free? And, you can have the satisfaction of scouting, preparation, set-up, being outdoors and one with nature, all the little things that go along with the enjoyment of hunting.
To me that is what it is all about.
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My 2 cents (and in judgement on no one) is preserve hunting is another one of those things crawling around under the Capitalist log. That’s not an anti-system statement either – roll over any system and there are it’s decay organisms. Challenging hunts build character, too much missing in this age of rampant consumerism.
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I would really like to thank everyone for their input. I know this is not a comfortable topic. I looked at this from my situation, living in a big town, not many places to go, starting out late, so I don’t have that many contacts, etc. I agree with pretty much everyone. Like I said, I do not plan to return to the preserve. For my children, possibly, but if I am ever at a level that I can make their hunt successful (seeing game, the killing is optional and not even necessary), I may very well choose that option after all.
Lastly, I’d like to just explain a bit more about what led me to posting this topic and why my interest. As I stated, I started hunting only a few years ago. I had had a hunting license since I was 18, but I never was able to make it out. This was largely because I had no “mentors” of any kind and since at that point I lived in Philadelphia and the “concrete jungle” didn’t offer many. I know, it’s an excuse, and that is correct, but it’s what happened, so I am pointing it out. Then, I decided it was time (I hit the point in life where I didn’t want to have any “should haves”). So, where to start? Naturally, a well known, ethical group that can take me under their wing and show me the joys of the hunt. Wrong. For me it was hunting shows. By the time I started out, I had just about every gadget imaginable to make it easier for me to be successful (kill something, because that is how success is measured). This whole bombardment of advertising and “expert” advice is probably the reason I am so against mega-hunting stores and shows that condense 5 days of hunting a fenced preserve into a 30 minute show (sponsored by the latest thing that will make you successful). It really hit me early on that this was not hunting, it was something I was not willing to be a part of. The preserve “quenched my thirst” and did give me some valuable experience that I would not have gotten on my own, but even that was not what I wanted. With the (almost) guaranteed success at a preserve, the hunt seems anti-climatic. The possibility (almost a guarantee) of “failure” (again, still using a kill to define success) makes it a hunt. And when viewed that way, one begins to realize that success can be measured on a whole different scale altogether. One that puts the kill as necessity, but does not emphasize it beyond making sure it is done with the animal in mind.
I was fortunate enough to find a copy of TBM on a supermarket shelf one day. I was very pleased with what I saw (and didn’t see). My first issue was the one with Ishi on the cover. Starting there, it was a bow hunter and not a monster buck that would score 300+. This trend continued throughout. The pictures matched the words, and so did the advertisers. I don’t remember even seeing a set of antlers in the whole issue. If there was one, it was just that “memorable”. The stories were of the hunt, and of the people, the kill was given a short blurb in a sentence that was underlined by sadness and respect. The hunter’s paradox. This is what I was looking for, and this is what my reason for wanting to hunt was (along with PETA, but that’s a different post). So here I am. And I am happy to be here.
I am sure I have bored you all enough. Again, I do appreciate the replies. Looking forward to reading more, and maybe “poking the skunk” a bit with some future posts on other “hot” topics. Thanks again all, good luck out there and be safe.
Alex
BTW: if you know anyone who wants to buy a bear compound, let me know.
😀
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There are no instant hunters it’s what you become, the measure of a hunter is not what he has killed but how he has done it and why.
Mark.
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Double post…
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I have mixed feelings on this subject, and they are hard to put into words. Anyhow here goes.
I do not agree with the killing of native game animals behind fences. If a person can find/hunt them in the wild, then that is where they should be chased.
I am not against killing a non native specie behind a fence. For example I will, every two years or so, kill a European Boar in a preserve located in my Province. I do so because it is the only opportunity I have to chase these animals without leaving my country, and because the meat is organic and it allows me to take the responsibility for procuring my own pork. But I know I am not hunting those Boars, I am merely killing them.
If I could find these same Boars in the wild, then I would not kill them behind a fence.
Lyagooshka your situation is a bit unique. You had no mentors, and a vast amount to learn. I do not think what you did was wrong, and from what you say, you learned a great deal. However once you have gained the ability to find, kill, and process your quarry, I would recommend that you do so outside of the high fences. You will probably feel better for it.
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wildschwein,
Thank you for touching upon probably the only point that was still left unreplied to. The “exotic” argument is another reason I posted this topic. While it is not a reason or excuse to have or not have high-fenced areas to harvest (I also don’t see it as hunting) it can allow for interesting table-fare and even trophy. I am actually glad I had the experience at the preserve. In a wierd way, it led me to appreciate “true” hunting that much more. I don’t plan to go back, except MAYBE with the little tikes, and that is becoming more and more of a maybe every day. I am actually looking forward to feeling my butt go numb out in the woods much more than I have ever looked forward to a trip to the preserve. I still would love to get a Fallow or Axis deer though. Unless I save up the scratch for a trip to Europe, a preserve may be the only way. BTW: If you ever plan a trip to Florida, bring your bow. Some great and inexpensive hog hunting in some totally open (no fences) ranches. Be well.
Alex
🙂
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alex, im glad u want whats rite n true ur both wise and informed n you’ve come to the rite group . ive come here recently myself just to be influenced by real people,as a pastor im bombarded with b.s. you dont need anyone tellin u how to guage success neither should u care . to be accepted among good folks just continue to keep it real an ill guarantee you’ll have at least 1 good friend
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I just don’t see a preserve as a form of hunting I see it more as a form of getting an animal, to me no real hunting occurred. As to if we should take others especially younger people to shoot there. I disagree I think when we are teaching we should have the highest standard of morals an ethics to set for others and preserves don’t set that standard. As far as exotics go yes I would love to hunt them in there native place one day as I keep saving the money to do it. As far as it being the place for new hunters to go I disagree today so many sates offer for youth and others different hunting opportunity’s so they do not have to go the preserve route. Heck even this great magazine offers a links of mentor on here somewhere that have agreed to help others with their hunting journey. Finally while marketing is a necessary tool for a company to make money, becoming a wise sportsman means not buying into the hype about what we need an instead tread a path of buying what is appropriate to help with hunting not over gadetize to where we lose our intuition and ability to think.
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I’ve never been east of the plains and I’ve never been to a game animal preserve so maybe I’m about to misspeak. But, it’s okay by me to hunt a preserve to begin the process to become a hunter. With limited access to public lands and lack of knowledge about taking game and what to do with it once you’ve gotten it down, it seems you have to start somewhere. Seems kinda crowded back there along the east coast.
Yes, there are many opportunities to hunt public lands and sometimes they aren’t always good. Several years ago I hunted elk in Colorado during rifle season, with a rifle. Wow. Worst hunting experience of my life. The crowd mentality only with guns. I haven’t hunted with a rifle since. And I wouldn’t want to introduce anyone new to hunting with what I experienced.
Is it the right way? I don’t know. To me a guided hunt on private land is just about the same. Maybe more challenging, maybe not. DIY may not be for everyone but it should be the ultimate goal since it does build character, can bond people together (or not) and it can highly educational. Fun too!
One of my fears is ONLY being able to hunt in a game preserve. I’ll give up using motorized vehicles and easy access to keep the lands out here open. I’m spoiled out here in the west but I don’t take it for granted. This topic reminds me not to………..
Craig
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I have been hunting here in PA for 37 years, primarily on public land. Over that time I have seen the deer population on those lands decrease significantly (for good or bad, depending on your deer management position to which I stay neutral). I just this week lost permission to hunt a farm due to it being sold. I saw the most deer of my 37 years on that farm just because of the management of an adjacent farm. It looks as though I will be back on public ground again this season.
Last week I returned from a dyi CO elk hunt a week early. We were scheduled to hunt two weeks, but due to several factors, not of least was to many people on public grounds. Btw… we hiked in three miles and up to 9800 feet.
I have experienced success hunting on public land and I would never consider a “canned hunt” ever. Having said that, even though I would not, with todays state of hunting here in PA, I don’t blame a beginner who does. I would only hope that that person one day finds the true meaning of hunting, and it is not what they show on tv, trust me.
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