Paper Tuning Results – 10/4/14

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#4877

Built a little paper tuning box today to test out my new arrow/bow combo.

Arrow:

GT Trad 5575, cut to 28.5″

50 gr. insert

200 gr. head

3 x 4″ fletch

Total arrow weight – 545gr.

Bow is a #52 @ 28″ Big Jim’s Buffalo, cut to center, braced @ 7-3/4″.

First paper shows three shots. The first two shots were taken at roughly 5′ from the paper, the third shot was taken at 10yds. from the paper:

The 2nd paper shows 6 shots taken at 15 yds:

Looks like consistent “bullet holes” to me – I’m pretty happy with the results. Any thoughts/feedback?

[tailfeather]

#34856

Looks good to me. Paper tuning is the ticket, imo.

Did I miss the post where you announced the new arrival? Thought you just put one on order?

So…..pics, specs, thoughts?:D

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#34907

tailfeather wrote: Paper tuning is the ticket, imo.

Agreed. It’s nice to at least be able to conclusively rule out that it’s not a tuning issue when the arrow isn’t going where you want it to.

tailfeather wrote: Did I miss the post where you announced the new arrival? Thought you just put one on order?

So…..pics, specs, thoughts?:D

It arrived yesterday. I actually ordered it a couple months ago, and got lucky that Jim had just started on a bow that fit the specs I was looking for, so it was just a matter of finishing it out to my liking, and the wait time was shortened from a normal order. And then, of course, he fully exceeded my expectations with a gorgeous piece of work. Pics and thoughts coming soon….

[Brennan Herr]

#34941

SH,

Did you try shooting them without the fletching? Wondering if the holes would be the same or not. Something to try anyway.

Brennan

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#34995

Brennan –

Yeah, I bareshaft tune as well (sometimes), which I think can be helpful in the early tuning stages, but paper shooting the finished arrow feels like the best final step for me.

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#38484

Round two – All shots were taken at 5yds due to windy conditions outside, with the same bow described above.

The holes on the left side of the paper were made with:

GT Trad 5575 cut to 28.5″

50 gr. insert

250 gr. point

5 gr. washer

4 x 3″ fletch

FOC – 25.5%

Total arrow weight: 600gr.

The holes on the right side of the paper were with the same 545 gr. arrow (FOC – 22.8%) described in the original post. The larger holes, esp. on the l. side, are where two arrows passed throug in more or less the same hole:

[Jason Wesbrock]

#38572

Smithhammer wrote: Any thoughts/feedback?

Yes. It looks great. Don’t mess with it. 😉

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#38658

J.Wesbrock wrote: [quote=Smithhammer] Any thoughts/feedback?

Yes. It looks great. Don’t mess with it. 😉

Thanks, Jason – that’s what we always want to hear!

But I thought it was noteworthy that in the 2nd round of testing, there’s no visible different between the two different setups (at least that I could see). When I get a calm day, I want to make sure that’s still consistent at a longer distance.

[David Coulter]

#38855

I put off paper tuning until this past summer. I bare shafted until it seemed like everything was flying right. This summer I thought I should take a look to see if I was missing anything. I ended up with nice round holes and little tears where the feathers went through. It was a nice confirmation.

Nice job with yours. dwc

[Stephen Graf]

#40634

Smithhammer wrote: Built a little paper tuning box today to test out my new arrow/bow combo… Any thoughts/feedback?

My experience with paper tuning is that the arrow is most out-of -wack at about 10 feet. If you are too close (3 feet) it hasn’t had time to move out of alignment. If you are too far (15 yds) it’s pretty much straightened out by then.

Try 3 or 4 yds and see what you get.

But I have to say, after all the fooling around after years of doing it, I don’t mess with paper tuning anymore. Too lazy. Throw a bare shaft and watch it go is about all I do any more.

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#56787

Today’s results were interesting. I started working on paper-tuning an arrow for my Primal Styk (#50@28″ shelf-cut 1/8″ past center)

Here are the results from the first arrow I tried (all shots taken @ 3 yds):

GT Trad 5575, cut to 28.5″

50gr. insert

200gr. point

3×4″ fletch

Clearly impacting nock right, indicating that the spine is too stiff. So I added 50gr, for a total point weight of 300gr. Here are the results:

Still nock right, still too stiff. So I added another 5ogr, for a total point wt. of 350gr (total arrow wt – 640gr.). This is where I was really surprised:

Somehow the tears are even more extreme than they were with the lighter point weight?!? Not sure how that happens, but I don’t want to increase the point weight any more than 350gr, so I think my next step is going to be to step down to 3555 shafts, and start over. I could also build out the shelf a little bit and see what that does…

[Don Thomas]

#58225

Bruce–I hate to sound like a heretic, but I’ve never paper tuned an arrow in my life and doubt I ever will. It’s kind of like patterning a shotgun (I know you are another wing-shooter), another thing you’re supposed to do but I don’t, with over 60 years of experience. Your arrows either fly right or they don’t, and you either hit the bird or you don’t. Just my take. Don

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#58792

Yep, I hear ya, Don. I’m terrible about patterning my shotguns as well, even though I know I should. I’ve just never found it that critical when it comes to launching a cloud of shot at a moving target – pick an appropriate shot size and choke combo and you’re probably going to get the job done.

But this has been a pretty interesting and revealing process (and what the heck – my tags are done here, and I don’t have another hunt planned till January…). Arrows that seemed to be flying well when I’d shoot them at a target 20yds. away, are clearly not leaving the bow as cleanly as they could, which I simply couldn’t see with the naked eye, and thought they were fine. So there’s a little tweaking to be done – not much, but some. I see it as a good verification – when I’m not hitting the target, at least I can rule out tuning as the culprit if I know I’m getting ‘bullet holes’ through paper. And that I’m getting the most out of my setup – with heavier arrows, I like to know that I’m getting as much speed/efficiency as possible out of them.

But if I was shooting a “cloud” of arrows simultaneously? I probably wouldn’t worry about it too much….

[Ralph]

#58894

Of all the bows you have you mean you don’t have a multi-arrow one? hear, hear!!!! A shot bow or scatterbow or whatever.

I don’t paper tune either, I dirt bank tune. If my arrows are flying straight and true at about 30 yds. and hitting what I’m looking at, I’m good with them.

There may be some problems but I don’t look for them, enough come natural on their own.

I patterned my new shotgun, 3 of 4 doves went down. Good’nuff for me:D:D

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#58990

R2 wrote: Of all the bows you have you mean you don’t have a multi-arrow one?

Of course I do! All of my center-shot bows will shoot a range of arrows just fine. My bows cuts 1/8″ past center are a little more finicky. 😉

R2 wrote: There may be some problems but I don’t look for them, enough come natural on their own.

Ha -story of my life. 8)

R2 wrote: I patterned my new shotgun, 3 of 4 doves went down. Good’nuff for me:D:D

Ok, I know this is an archery forum, but I have to ask – what’s yer new shotgun?

Steve Graf wrote:

Try 3 or 4 yds and see what you get.

I’m curious, Steve – do you think that at 3yds. the arrow may still be recovering from paradox?

[Ralph]

#59025

I’ve shot some wood arrows that had 30 yds. of paradox.:D

Rem 1100. I’ve always shot a pump action and the 1100 don’t pump so good. 😉

Steve, 3-4 yds tenderizes the meat. Oh:roll:

Bruce I understand the paper tuning process, used to do it with the other kind of bows, and have no problems with it. I’d just have to do it indoors to prove a dang thing around here. 😀 Like outside right now. Yucky wind.

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#59042

R2 wrote: I’ve shot some wood arrows that had 30 yds. of paradox.:D

Haha…

R2 wrote: Rem 1100. I’ve always shot a pump action and the 1100 don’t pump so good. 😉

Ok, confess – how many times have you tried to “pump” your semi since you got it? 😆

And yeah, I’m doing all this in the garage right now too. In addition to the wind, I’ve got knee-deep snow in the backyard. 😥

[Ralph]

#59078

I’ve got knee-deep snow in the backyard. 😥

So the snow on the ground effects arrow flight too uh? 😀

As for question about pumping, I’d be in trouble in a self defense situation.:cry:

[Stephen Graf]

#59881

Steve Graf wrote:

Try 3 or 4 yds and see what you get.

I’m curious, Steve – do you think that at 3yds. the arrow may still be recovering from paradox?

If you accept the explanation of paradox given in the Easton tuning guide and the following link:

http://www.real-world-physics-problems.com/physics-of-archery.html

Then for a correctly spined arrow, it will never stop recovering from paradox, till it hits the target. But the nodes of vibration will be lined up as soon as it leaves the bow. Thus (for a correctly spined arrow), the point and nock end should pass through the same point on the paper at 3 yds – there may still be a tear to the side depending on how much the arrow flexes. But the point and nock should be aligned…

All that said, in my experience there is nothing to be gained from paper tuning for traditional bows. It is very helpful for compounds because they shoot so fast and are shot with releases which eliminate paradox. IMO, for traditional bows, bare shaft tuning is the best method.

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#59979

Thanks for the great info, Steve. I should probably add that I do bare-shaft to begin with, and have only been using paper tuning after bare-shafting and then fletching the arrow, for a final verification. And really, it’s just been an experiment of late – something to play around with. But, as you can see above, I’m starting to think that the resuls can lead to more confusion than verification.

[Don Thomas]

#60438

Bruce–It’s a left brain/right brain issue. My father was the scientist in the family–that’s why he won the Nobel Prize. When I was a kid he’d have me out there counting holes in that 30″ circle all day long. He was also the best wing-shot I’ve ever seen, but I don’t think that had anything to do with patterning shotguns. You hit ’em or you don’t. Don

[Troy Warner]

#62488

TJ’s book covers paper tuning for tradbows. Says to put paper 6 yds (could be ft typing this from memory, and that don’t work as well as it used to)in front of target. I’ve never tried tuning so close to the paper just stood out 10, 15, then, 20 yds every thing looked good so I ran with it that way. 8)

Had wheely expert tell me that paper tuning should be done at 6yds (again could have said feet), but I just attributed that to computer chip driven stuff like compounds and surface to air missiles.:shock:

Seariously though I thought the closer paper tuning was more for compounds that had a faster parodox recovery. 😀

Maybe with the newer hybrid bows close paper tuning is a good thing to do.

I learn something new everyday. That makes me a student…… Right.:lol:

Troy

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