Paper tuning

[doug krueger]

#6479

So I paper tuned today for the first time and I have a couple questions. I shoot about 64# bob lee signature, 32 inch draw, 300 spine beman carbon bowhunter. 150 up front, elevated rest, 3 under. At about six feet I have a horrendous nock high tear. at about 12 feet it is hardly noticeable. My broads fly pretty good, sometimes I see the nock kick up and get a low hit with bhs. My number one question is do you have to paper tune from 6 ft or does it matter? If the tear is good at 12 ft is it ok. I shoot really good groups out to 25 yards and sometimes even 30. I am only about 1 year in to trad but I shoot 365. any help will be greatly appreciated.

DK

[Troy Breeding]

#51775

Have you bareshafted yet?

Troy

[doug krueger]

#51803

I have bare shafted and it didnt really work for me. There is something about the way I shoot that makes my nock kick high. I switched from shooting off the shelf to the elevated rest and that helped but I still have a nock high. I followed the Ol adcock method and I cant get a bare shaft to fly straight. I am sure it works for other guys but not for me. I am sure a lot of it is my form but everyone I have shot with said my form is fine (elbow is not to high). The arrow makes a pretty good hole in the paper at 12 feet, is that to far back or do you have to be 6ft?

Thanks

DK

[Stephen Graf]

#52231

Some folks and some bows just work that way.

I have found that adding a nockset under the arrow can really help keep the arrow from kicking. My guess is that if the arrow is leaving the bow correctly in all other regards, adding the lower nock set will fix you up.

Be sure to leave at least 1/16 inch extra space between the bottom of the arrow nock and the nock set. Otherwise at full draw your arrow will get pinched and the nock might get cracked.

[David Petersen]

#52432

Doug, if I recall, you shoot 3 under? That’s the first thing I would try–switching to split-finger. And for hunting I predict the day will come when you cuss that elevated rest. Arrow flight, all set up for hunting, should be perfect, flawless, before anything else. In the old days we’d just stick on more feathers. These days, we’re learning to fine tune. You might give Milt a call. He’s out of the archery business but the best archery coach I’ve ever known and would likely welcome you over for a session. Hang in and when you get it right you’ll know it was worth the trouble. Short version: perfect arrow flight is mandatory and we can’t settle for less. Because of what is happening you are focusing on nock position, when in fact you may have a basic mismatch with your current arrows. Hang in, Dave

[Jason Wesbrock]

#52505

Steve Graf wrote: Some folks and some bows just work that way.

I have found that adding a nockset under the arrow can really help keep the arrow from kicking. My guess is that if the arrow is leaving the bow correctly in all other regards, adding the lower nock set will fix you up.

Be sure to leave at least 1/16 inch extra space between the bottom of the arrow nock and the nock set. Otherwise at full draw your arrow will get pinched and the nock might get cracked.

Doug,

What Steve posted is excellent advise. That being said, what kind of rest are you using? Some are a lot more forgiving than others.

[doug krueger]

#52521

Hello guys, first of all thanks for all the suggestions. I already have two nocks to keep my arrow from sliding down. I am shooting a NAP flipper rest. What I really want to know is… When paper tuning is it imperative to be six feet away or can it be different. At six ft the tear in the paper is not acceptable but at twelve feet it is almost perfect.

thanks

DK

[Troy Breeding]

#52676

With correct tuning the distance to the paper doesn’t matter.

Be it 6′, 12′ 10yds or 20yds.

Troy

[Jason Wesbrock]

#52763

Doug,

To answer your question, is it “imperative” that you paper tune at six feet? I suppose not, but if your arrows are leaving the bow nock high (consistently or intermittently) there is a problem that should be corrected. Why? You said it yourself when you mentioned that occasionally you will see your nock kick up and (with broadheads) your shot will hit low. That’s what happens when a broadhead-tipped arrow leaves the bow out of tune. That’s also why there are so many threads on internet forums about broadheads wind planing—it’s not a broadhead issue so much as a tuning issue. The last thing I want when I drop the string on an animal is to not know where my arrow will hit.

 

That being said, I think your arrow spine sounds like it may

be a touch stiff. I shoot full length ICS 340s with 125-grain tips (145 total including insert) out of a high performance recurve pulling 56# @ 32”. You said you’re shooting an NAP Flipper rest, and that’s a great choice. I’ve used them myself for a very long time. You also said you have two nock locators (one above and one below with a small gap), so we can rule out nock slide as an issue.

 

If you don’t mind, I’d like to ask a few questions.

 

1) Is your arrow flight problem consistent or intermittent? Does it happen all the time, or at random? 

 

2) Are you sure you’re drawing 32” and releasing at that length? The reason I ask is that I can’t begin to count all the times I’ve shot with someone who said they drew x-amount but really drew an inch or three shorter. I’ve also seen far too many instances where an archer actually drew to the length he thought, but collapsed an inch or two by the time he released. 

 

3) As odd as this sounds, you may possibly have an arrow spine issue. One of the problem with being overspined is that the back end of the arrow can impact the sight window of the riser. This can cause all sorts of odd readings when it comes to tuning. Just as an experiment, you may want to try tuning with a heavier point, or a similarly set up 340 instead of a 300.

 

Paper tuning is fine, and I’ve used it myself for the better part of 30 years. But in my opinion, it’s like measuring something with a ruler instead of a dial caliper—good for a rough idea, but possibly not the best choice for a more precise measurement. Of course, there are tuning procedures even more precise than bare shaft tuning, but that’s another topic entirely

[doug krueger]

#52916

All right I think I have gotten to the bottom of it. what I forgot to mention to you guys is that I have 5 gpi weight tubes in my arrows. I was under the impression that weight tubes did not play any factor in changing spine? I took your advise about possible to stiff of spine. I took the tube out and added 300 grains up front to try to weaken it a little and i think it worked. The paper tear was a little nock high and in the failing light the bare shaft seemed to fly like a dart. I backed up to 25 with a fletched arrow and it sailed perfectly. I will need to confirm tomorrow in better light but boy am I excited right now. My new question is will there be a difference between a 250 grain head with a 50 gr brass insert and a straight up 300 grain field point. I am curios because I need to either buy 250 bhs with the 50 gr inserts or 300 gr bhs.

Thanks for everything

DK

[Troy Breeding]

#52923

The 300 up front will give you a tad bit better FOC, which will help in flight.

I’ve never delt with the weight tubes so I have no idea how they effect arrows.

Troy

[Jason Wesbrock]

#52965

Doug Krueger wrote: All right I think I have gotten to the bottom of it. what I forgot to mention to you guys is that I have 5 gpi weight tubes in my arrows. I was under the impression that weight tubes did not play any factor in changing spine? I took your advise about possible to stiff of spine. I took the tube out and added 300 grains up front to try to weaken it a little and i think it worked. The paper tear was a little nock high and in the failing light the bare shaft seemed to fly like a dart. I backed up to 25 with a fletched arrow and it sailed perfectly. I will need to confirm tomorrow in better light but boy am I excited right now. My new question is will there be a difference between a 250 grain head with a 50 gr brass insert and a straight up 300 grain field point. I am curios because I need to either buy 250 bhs with the 50 gr inserts or 300 gr bhs.

Thanks for everything

DK

Excellent! Every now and then a hunch pays off. Weight tubes will slightly stiffen dynamic spine because they essentially distribute dead weight throughout the shaft. With the normal two to three grains per inch tubes it’s not very noticeable. At five grains per inch it becomes more apparent.

Stock Beman RPS inserts for the ICS shafts (the ones that come with the shafts) weight 24 grains, so with a stock insert and a 300-grain head you’re at a total of 324 grains up front. Let’s just call it 325 grains. With a 50-grain brass insert and a 250-grain head you’re at 300 grains total. The 25 grains difference will affect tuning, so switching to the brass insert and 250-grain heads will stiffen your dynamic spine slightly. If you need a total of 324 grains up front for proper tuning, you have a lot of choices with respect to hunting arrows:

Glue-in adapter (24-grain aluminum, or brass weighing 75, 100, or 125 grains) and a 300-, 250-, or 225-, or 200-grain glue-on head depending on adapter weight. For the record, I don’t know if anyone makes a 225- or 250-grain head.

And then of course you can mix and match RPS inserts (24-grain stock, 50-grain brass, or 100-grain brass) with either screw in broadheads or glue-on heads and screw-in adapters (25- or 43-grains for aluminum, or 75-, 100, or 125-grains for steel).

Depending on which inserts you use, you could use heads as heavy as 300 grains or as light as 100 grains. So realistically, your broadhead choices are limitless. Find whatever head you like and select the proper inserts to get the total weight up front you need. Personally, I’d use the heaviest head in the model you like (for maximum strength in the head) and then choose the appropriate inserts to get up to 325 grains.

[doug krueger]

#53498

I will look into my options. Thanks for all the help.

DK

[David Petersen]

#53502

Doug — One amplification on Jason’s excellent advice: Tuffhead makes a superb 225 glue-on with field points to match; same for their 300-grain glue-on. And I believe ABS makes a 315 grain field point to match their Ashby head, but it’s been a long time and I could be wrong on the weight. Glad you’re finding good results at last, knowing how hard you’ve worked at it …now take that bottom nock point off the string to avoid possible arrow-nock pinch and release problems. 😀

[ray montoya]

#54742

A 64# Bob Lee longbow, 32″ draw, .300 spine shafts, and youre trying to add more weight on the front end? 300 grains? Wouldnt you need a .340 spine shaft to start adding the tip weight every is suggesting? 300 grains up front of a .300 spine shaft, 32″ long, really weakens that shaft.

At 6′, you should see a nock left tear if youre right handed, nock high tear indicates a high nocking point, thats it, unless the Bob Lee isnt tillered for three under. At 12′, the arrow should be done with paradox, and this is were you will see if the shaft is too stiff or too weak. Nothing you have mentioned indicates a stiff shaft. Do yourself a favor, buy yourself some lighted nocks, and then you can see what the nock is really doing. You might be surprised…

[David Coulter]

#55824

Dave,

You suggested taking off the bottom nock point to avoid pinch and release problems. I don’t use a brass nock set, but wrapped floss and I do use a bottom nock point to avoid the nock slipping. What’s the rule of thumb for this? How much space should be left between the nock points. I hadn’t thought about it causing problems at all. I use it to avoid problems, but maybe adding unneeded complications. thanks, dwcphoto

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