Mitten's article in the current TBM

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#7364

Have any of you had a chance to read Mike Mitten’s piece in the current issue, called “No Traditional Guilt?” I thought it was a pretty thought-provoking piece, and I’d be curious to hear what others think.

[Col Mike]

#61352

Bruce

Well I hesitated to read the article, although downloaded I much prefer the print copy.

How ever, after reading it, I’m not sure what kind of response you are looking for. It appears to me as a straight forward trad hunt that most of us dream of. Am I missing something in my addled mind.

Mike

[skinner biscuit]

#61358

The way I choose to hunt is my choice and I respect the ways of others.Only when technology crosses the line and limits the hunting season will I become concerned.

[drew4fur]

#61603

I’ve killed a whopping 3 white tail does in my life; 1 with a bow, 1 with a muzzleloader, 1 with a center fire rifle. When I got to undergrad I largely gave up bowhunting whitetails b/c I didn’t want to commit the time to practice while living in dormatorys and b/c I got WAY into bow fishing. Furthermore I was somewhat put off by the trophy hunters and I just wasn’t into swapping big buck stories with them.

Considering all of that I found that Mitten’s article was thought provoking b/c I’ve never had a personal relationship with a traditional bowhunter who really put the time in to take trophy animals. Additionally I’ve never thought about the roll reversal of a trad bow hunter who regularly passes up shots on deer to take a particular trophy and receiving ridicule for that choice. I must say I respect the effort, and I hope one day I again live in a time and place where I can have the luxury of using the bulk of a big game season to pursue a particular trophy. I know plenty of archers in my old home state who find little challenge in taking freezer meat with the bow, and I definitely agree with Mitten that trad/primitive gear isn’t an excuse to take whatever walks by and call it win; his suggestion of redefining failure is, I think, a great motto.

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#62137

It was the first few paragraphs that were most interesting to me – specifically that the author had experienced others within the trad community who tried to make him feel ‘guilty’ for his choices. I was dismayed to read this, but not surprised, and it got me thinking about all the other ways in which I’ve seen people’s individual choices be denigrated by the self-annointed, “holier than thou” trad puritans.

I’ve repeatedly seen traditonal archers made to feel “less trad’ simply because they may choose to wear camo.

I’ve seen trad archers have their successes belittled because they may choose to use a commercial pop-up blind, or a trail cam.

I’ve seen longbow puritans put down recurves and D/R bows as being “less traditional.”

I’ve seen adherents of EFOC put down those who don’t use such setups as being “irresponsible.” And of course, the opposite as well.

And, as Mitten points out in this article, I’ve seen people in the trad community put down others because of their choices in the animals they take – choices which, in my opinion, are highly personal.

I could go on, but I think the point is made, and I think that all of the above is absurd. I suppose it’s just an unfortunate aspect of human nature that we often choose to divide rather than unite, and/or put our own chosen way of doing things on a pedestal and look down at others who may choose a different approach. And I certainly don’t mean to paint the entire trad community with such negativity, by any means – many of the finest people I’ve ever met, I’ve met because of our common bond to archery. But for any of us that have spent time in this niche community, I’m betting we’ve all seen the examples above, and more. And at a certain point I have to wonder – Isn’t the fact that we’ve all chosen to hunt in this really difficult way, and that we’ve committed to re-discovering the skills needed to be successful at this, sufficient? Must we still retreat into our little tribalistic sub-camps and criticize other’s choices? I guess I’m just getting tired of all the proselytizing I see, and I wish we could instead focus on the kinship, and be more tolerant of various approaches, assuming they are not doing harm.

Also, as Drew points out – there is a lot more to the “trophy hunter” perspective than superficial assessments may assume.

[David Coulter]

#62199

I haven’t read the article yet, but plan to. In response to Smithhammer’s post here, it seems to me for many years that anytime you get any given group of people together, a portion of them are going to be critical. Often, there’s reason to be critical. There’s probably some phd paper that has quantified the percentages on this, but who know, maybe I’m the one off base. Regular self-examination is part of the keeping percentages low trail, as we all can be susceptible if we don’t watch out. And, by the way, that last comment isn’t aimed at anyone in particular, unless it’s me. Thanks, dwc

[paleoman]

#62308

I’m with dwc up there…..I have to read the article. I haven’t picked up a “holier than thou” vibe in the trad community. But I’m not part of one anyway, except this site. And I don’t sense that here. If anything, it’s way too quiet around here…

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#62314

Agreed – I have seen it far less here than elsewhere, and that’s why I choose to spend most of my forum time here.

And I think there is a difference between maintaining a critical eye and just being critical. Certainly, there are many things lamentable in the current state of hunting, but tearing down our own for things like passing up many animals in the quest for a particular one, or ridiculously trivial things like what one chooses to wear, whether or not one uses a pop-up blind, what they carry in their pack, etc. seems to me like far more of a reflection of the critic than the recipient.

I really don’t intend this to be negative at all. Instead, I want it to be a reminder that we should focus on our common ground rather than on nit-picking every little thing, simply because someone chooses to do things a little differently. We’re all “brothers of the bow” in my opinion, and if you bring that spirit, then you’re welcome at my campfire any time. I guess Mitten’s article just got me thinking about all this on a snowy Sunday morning, because I’ve noticed it at times as well. But now I’m going to go shoot my bow and remember what is truly important.

[Ralph]

#62336

I’ve rarely seen any “snobby” attitudes in a traditional bunch, occasionally yes but those people are that way no matter where they’re at whether it be around archery or just life in general.

I’ve never thought of there being a difference in a kill shot on a 3D animal from a hunting bow or a target bow, a longbow or a recurve bow, a trad bow or a wheel bow but to some I guess there is. 😀 Still, no sense in squabbling about it.

I enjoyed Mitten’s article. I respect his gumption, efforts and fortitude to accomplish what he desired.

Way I see it if you ain’t havin’ fun with yourself and those around ya what in the hell are you doin it for.

This don’t count always at work though:lol:

[Stephen Graf]

#62379

R2 wrote: … Way I see it if you ain’t havin’ fun with yourself and those around ya what in the hell are you doin it for…

Spot on R2!

I see where you are coming from Bruce. I think it’s part of the American Psyche. We started out as puritans, and have had a hard time shaking that limited perspective. Americans always think there’s a right way, and a wrong way, and nothing much in between.

That said, I hate the word Trophy as applied to hunting. And to me trophy hunting is just one of the stages some folks go through on their way to to becoming a fully aware and actualized hunter.

I thought Don Thomas’s editorial about the land grab being perpetrated by the repub’s and their corporate overlords is really important.

He mentioned in the article the song “this land belongs to you and me” which reminded me of the version we sang in the 3rd grade:

This Land is my Land,

It isn’t your Land.

You better get off,

I’ll blow your head off.

I have a shot gun,

You don’t have one.

This Land is Private Property!!

Sung to the same tune. Amazing that 3rd graders could outline the North American Conservation Model as seen through the eyes of conservatives.

[Col Mike]

#62441

Bruce

Couldn’t agree more with your comments. Actually this is the only forum I visit:D.

[drew4fur]

#62665

Bruce

Do you think this article resonates with you b/c you’re also a fly fisherman? The angling world is awash with ridicule and criticism; you know as well as anyone the ridicule that happens among fly anglers toward OTHER fly anglers and their target fish /methods of using the fly rod. Then there is angling in general, those who choose to chuck bait and lures to the same popular fly fishing targets are often snubbed by the fly flickers.

[Ralph]

#63048

Oh no, I’m in trouble.

I ain’t gonna tell ya the best way to fish the brushy mountain creeks for brookies. I’ll be tarred and feathered:roll::roll:

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#63111

drew4fur wrote: Bruce

Do you think this article resonates with you b/c you’re also a fly fisherman? The angling world is awash with ridicule and criticism; you know as well as anyone the ridicule that happens among fly anglers toward OTHER fly anglers and their target fish /methods of using the fly rod. Then there is angling in general, those who choose to chuck bait and lures to the same popular fly fishing targets are often snubbed by the fly flickers.

Maybe. Though I suppose it can be found in just about any pursuit when passions fly and egos bump up against each other. Regardless, it’s a good reminder to me to keep from rushing to judgment on things that just don’t really matter.

[drew4fur]

#63163

Smithhammer wrote: keep from rushing to judegment on things that just don’t really matter.

I assume that I am a relatively young member of this forum; I just turned 32 a week ago. While age is certainly relative, I feel like Bruce’s words on rushing to judgement are a loose motto for my thritys.

-Drew

[Ralph]

#63180

Judgements usually best kept within an open mind and behind a closed mouth. 🙂

[drew4fur]

#63187

R2 wrote: Judgements usually best kept within an open mind and behind a closed mouth. 🙂

R2, if this was FB (and I’m glad it’s not), I would “like” that.

[Jason Wesbrock]

#63432

Smithhammer wrote: And I think there is a difference between maintaining a critical eye and just being critical. Certainly, there are many things lamentable in the current state of hunting, but tearing down our own for things like passing up many animals in the quest for a particular one, or ridiculously trivial things like what one chooses to wear, whether or not one uses a pop-up blind, what they carry in their pack, etc. seems to me like far more of a reflection of the critic than the recipient.

(insert gigantic thumbs up here)

[paleoman]

#63488

R2 wrote: Oh no, I’m in trouble.

I ain’t gonna tell ya the best way to fish the brushy mountain creeks for brookies. I’ll be tarred and feathered:roll::roll:

No you won’t! I grew up fishing small stream brookies and it’s meat all the way. Roll over those damp logs and pick some worms. If the little buzz saws don’t bite on the 2nd flip, they ain’t there or in the mood. Flipping a worm under a tight overhang of tag alders to get to just the right spot may be cave art to some, but it’s art:wink:

[Ralph]

#63543

Fly rod gives ya more reach uh.:? But ya gotta wear Levis and tennis shoes. Waders raise things up a notch:D

Looks cooler than a cane pole too.

Shoulda seen the looks when I used a cane pole on a lake on the Grand Mesa in Co.

This is kinda on the topic of doin it how you wanna.8)

There were just many trout feeding ‘right’ there as there were ‘way’ out there.:wink:

[David Coulter]

#63556

R2, one of my all time favorites poles was a screw together cane pole my dad bought me on a trip South when I was a kid. Kids back home were amazed. Had a blast catching tons of sunnies and shiners. Dc

[David Coulter]

#63600

Back from the fishing hijack, I just read the article. I don’t see any problem with his process. It sure seems true. It’s a shame he experienced criticism for his choices, although I’m not sure who would criticise for being picky and intense in his choice. I’m sure you can find someone easy enough. I did find myself distracted by Mitten defending his choice. Possibly, without some clarification he might come off as elitist, but I don’t see it that way. A little insecure about it for some reason, maybe. He certainly shouldn’t be. In the end I see two stories wrapped together. One about fine hunts with specific, ethical intentions and process, and the other about the defense of something that is well within the bounds of “to each his own. “

There is evidence of benefit for taking both a young buck and to letting bucks grow older, for the good of the herd. If it’s for the good of the herd, it’s for the good of the hunter, too.

Like Steve said. Go hunting, be happy. Peace, dwc

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#63607

Thanks for all the thoughtful input in this thread, folks. This is why I like this forum so much.

[David Coulter]

#63612

Cheers back at ya. Excellent bunch here. Best, dwc

[Ralph]

#63614

It goes to show that we don’t have to have the modern, the expensive, the “in” equipment to accomplish our means. We can do it simply and have fun.

We may want or desire, some feel the need to have the biggest, baddest and mostest.:) But that’s an individual choice.

Those that can take the simplest of gear whether it be archery equipment, fishing equipment or the tools of whatever activity they are pursuing and make it work, have fun and survive with these will be those of us who keep it all alive.

Mitten took his simple equipment and conquered and had an added bonus. Some of us fish simple and achieve.

I’m not knocking anybody’s equipment, tools, toys, don’t get me wrong, just trying to say that what we choose is our business and simple can be fun.

Congrats mitten. Great job.

[Charles Ek]

#63687

If you ain’t usin’ an atlatl, you ain’t traditional ’nuff. 😛

Sorry Mom, but someone had to speak the truth to these poseurs.

😉

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#7679

This all reminds me of a guy that I used to work with in a fly shop in Wyoming years ago. The only type of fishing this guy was interested in was stalking large fish with dry flies. I don’t think he even owned a nymph or a streamer, split shot nor a sinking line. His motto was, “if they ain’t coming up, I’m not going down for ’em.”

He was a phenomenal fisherman and one of the best casters I’ve ever seen. But at that stage in my fishing development, I just couldn’t understand his extremely selective approach at all. It seemed insane to me to drive all the way to some distant river, and sometimes never even make a cast if the fish weren’t feeding on the surface. Didn’t this guy want to catch fish?!? I was young and all I wanted to do at the time was be on a river catching as many fish as possible with every free moment I had. He boggled me. I even started thinking he was a bit of a “dry fly snob” and an elitist.

So one day I just straight-out asked him – what’s the deal? His response was simple. “I’ve caught lots of fish in my life. I don’t need to prove to myself that I can catch fish anymore. Now, I’m only interested in catching certain fish, and catching them in certain ways. This is the way I want to do it.”

I still didn’t quite get it way back then, but I get it now. And I see much of that same mentality in how a lot of us approach traditional bowhunting.

[David Coulter]

#7723

Smithhammer, good story, good point.

Eidsvolving, get real! If you ain’t jumping out of a tree with a sharp stick in you hand….

[Ralph]

#7737

One thing about y’all, the cook ain’t gonna be very busy. 😀

It all boils down to what ya got on your mind to be doin, do it and do it well.

Now if you want a bait of brookies rolled in cornmeal and fried in butter……………..:wink:

[critch]

#7763

I can see Mr. Mitten’s points. I’ve found myself many times just enjoying being in the woods. I’m hunting, but I’m taking in the day.

When I was younger I would pretty much take anything that crossed my path, but as I’m older, I’m more selective, partially because I want to be sure it will be a good kill shot, partially because something better may come along.

[Col Mike]

#8194

Bruce

If that gentleman you meet in WY name was Jim Sparks—you are indeed a fortunate person. Jim is one of the finest. I can tell you in later years he went back to nymph’s split shot and sinking lines–I know, spent 5 days with him on the green reef (or was it grey) section of the N Platte.

When the other guides where booked Jim would take folks for free only asking for chit’s in the fly shop–local guides called him the father of the river and the fly shop whore.

My first Battalion commander and a true outdoors man and good friend.

Mike

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#8997

Mike – glad to hear you had a good experience on Grey’s Reef with Jim Sparks. 😉

[David Fudala]

#9353

Perhaps the meaning of being a traditionalist leans more toward how we conduct and represent ourselves rather than the equipment we choose as opposed to others? For example, Fred Bear shot a recurve. Did his recurve make him a traditionalist? For their time, his bows were actually cutting edge and relied on current technology to make. However, Fred’s respect for the outdoors and his ethics were what made him shine as an icon in the sport and his never exhausted enthusiasm to be a sportsman influenced countless people for years. To me, that is a traditionalist. To invoke personal challenges and goals such as the size or numbers of game is as stated above, a highly personal thing. And I feel no one should ever be scrutinized for making choices like that which are indeed, their right to make.

[Doc Nock]

#10183

Smithhammer wrote: It was the first few paragraphs that were most interesting to me – specifically that the author had experienced others within the trad community who tried to make him feel ‘guilty’ for his choices. I was dismayed to read this, but not surprised, and it got me thinking about all the other ways in which I’ve seen people’s individual choices be denigrated by the self-annointed, “holier than thou” trad puritans.

I’ve repeatedly seen traditonal archers made to feel “less trad’ simply because they may choose to wear camo.

I’ve seen trad archers have their successes belittled because they may choose to use a commercial pop-up blind, or a trail cam.

I’ve seen longbow puritans put down recurves and D/R bows as being “less traditional.”

I’ve seen adherents of EFOC put down those who don’t use such setups as being “irresponsible.” And of course, the opposite as well.

And, as Mitten points out in this article, I’ve seen people in the trad community put down others because of their choices in the animals they take – choices which, in my opinion, are highly personal.

I could go on, but I think the point is made, and I think that all of the above is absurd. I suppose it’s just an unfortunate aspect of human nature that we often choose to divide rather than unite, and/or put our own chosen way of doing things on a pedestal and look down at others who may choose a different approach. And I certainly don’t mean to paint the entire trad community with such negativity, by any means – many of the finest people I’ve ever met, I’ve met because of our common bond to archery. But for any of us that have spent time in this niche community, I’m betting we’ve all seen the examples above, and more. And at a certain point I have to wonder – Isn’t the fact that we’ve all chosen to hunt in this really difficult way, and that we’ve committed to re-discovering the skills needed to be successful at this, sufficient? Must we still retreat into our little tribalistic sub-camps and criticize other’s choices? I guess I’m just getting tired of all the proselytizing I see, and I wish we could instead focus on the kinship, and be more tolerant of various approaches, assuming they are not doing harm.

Also, as Drew points out – there is a lot more to the “trophy hunter” perspective than superficial assessments may assume.

Good stuff, Bruce. You should start penning articles of your own!! 😀

I heard a preacher once suggest that the “divide and conquer” aspect of human nature is to try to make themselves feel better about themselves by pointing out that others don’t do as they do, so they’re “lesser” somehow— at least in that detractor’s mind’s eye!

I think that is spot on!

People isolate, to feel superior and not integrate because then they’re not “special!” Like the old Church Lady on SNL! 🙄

Too bad, but in light of our Country’s current political climate and election choices, who can find any reason what those who pursue a particular broad area of hunting shouldn’t also then become “selective elitists” who MUST denigrate others to feel superior.

I’ll challenge the REASONS sometimes given for a particular choice, if I find that logic is unfounded or unscientific, but not the choice itself! To each his own…more the merrier…

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#10270

Thanks for your thoughts, Doc.

I should probably also clarify – I don’t personally subscribe to the mantra that we as hunters “all have to stick together” on everything, across the board, when it comes down to defending certain practices that I find ethically suspect. If we don’t regulate ourselves to a certain degree, then we should expect that others (non-hunters) will. But I’d much rather see us focusing criticism on things which are truly giving hunting a bad name, rather than what I see as the sorts of trivial things mentioned above. I mean really -caring about whether someone wears camo or plaid? What are we, fashion police? 🙄 😉

[Doc Nock]

#10291

Smithhammer wrote: Thanks for your thoughts, Doc.

I should probably also clarify – I don’t personally subscribe to the mantra that we as hunters “all have to stick together” on everything, across the board, when it comes down to defending certain practices that I find ethically suspect. If we don’t regulate ourselves to a certain degree, then we should expect that others (non-hunters) will. But I’d much rather see us focusing criticism on things which are truly giving hunting a bad name, rather than what I see as the sorts of trivial things mentioned above. I mean really -caring about whether someone wears camo or plaid? What are we, fashion police? 🙄 😉

That’s one of the many reasons I respect your voice, Bruce…

You realize that the keyboard lacks the human touch… but I think that most who regularly follow here know without a doubt that your heart is on the important issues, not the petty ones…

Bow Quiver vs. back or side quiver. 2 blade or 3 or 4? WT?

Seriously? Eat a brick, Kemo Sabe! 😈

I DO like to see the THOUGHTS behind choices expounded upon and it challenges ME to question if my basis for choice is solid or rather less then…

But the things we as a “fraternity” seem to get off on at times, seems to me to be “off”…

If someone says, I Like 4 fletch because it seems to work better for me…who can argue that?

If someone says, “Four fletch is the only ETHICAL way to go!! ” i’ll be weighing in on that one and asking WT? and How The? cause it don’t pencil on paper as an edict!

People, indigenous and modern have been experimenting most likely since time began to hunt better, eat better, & not lose critters when survival was a knife edge struggle, and today, it can be one of a PR SURVIVAL knife edge for our beloved hunting to co-exist in modern times.

When easier meets up and joins with lack of practice, skill, understanding or commitment to the life we try to snuff out, I get a bit zealous myself! :shock::oops:

But there is no one HOLY GRAIL in all this and that will raise my hackles when someone says “it’s this way or ELSE!” Nah…

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#10370

Doc Nock wrote:

Seriously? Eat a brick, Kemo Sabe! 😈

Doc Nock wrote: But there is no one HOLY GRAIL in all this and that will raise my hackles when someone says “it’s this way or ELSE!” Nah…

Truth.

[Etter1]

#10687

All in our own minds and that’s a fact that we should remember.

I don’t use trail cams during hunting season and I don’t bait deer in S GA (it’s legal below the midline of the state). But I will choose to rib friends of mine who decide to pour corn and to run cams to kill deer and turkeys. A lot of my friends who I “ribbed” for hunting with compounds and crossbows are now shooting recurves and longbows and are now re-exploring life.

After hunting with trad gear became “usual” to me, I probably decided to hold off on button heads, yearlings, and small bears. Pigs are just vermin so they all get killed but I don’t care what anyone decides is below their “standard” for the hunt.

I would say the ultimate hunter is someone who chooses to use the most primitive form of killing and also chooses only a small percentage of his quarry to chase. My hat is off!

[Doc Nock]

#10712

I hear you, Etter1…

I have no desire to EVER kill a MT Lion or a Grizzly Bear…if a hunt were donated, I’d probably not go…well unless it was one of those boat hunts… just to eat the crabs and shrimp they put pots out for 😆

We all have our ways, values, ideas and ideals… and so it seems it should be…

As for teasing others, well, that is a whole other category of ‘just fun” stuff to do to our buds! If I didn’t get ragged, I’d figure they were mad at me or sumpin… turn about is fair play! Some are just such big targets! 8):roll:

[Don Thomas]

#12326

Interesting discussion. As I read Bruce’s note earlier, I released that I hold several of the views he identified as potential sources of conflict. I feel strongly about some of the subjects and will be glad to discuss them with whoever wants to listen. However, I have always taken pains to separate discussion of the ideas from personal criticism of those who hold opposing opinions. Name calling and personally derogatory statements do not advance any point of view. If we keep this principle in mind, we can all look forward to lively campfire discussions and still remain friends while working together for the benefit of wildlife and hunting. Don

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#12365

Well said as usual, Don. There’s always room for level-headed and constructive criticism, and the last think I would ever want to see is a homogeny of opinion among our ranks. As you said, lively and respectful campfire discussion is always a good thing.

And for the record, I have my own sometimes strongly-held opinions about some of the examples cited above, but I try to remember that merely having an opinion doesn’t mean I should always assume others want, or need, to hear it. 😉

[Doc Nock]

#12383

Being passionate about things close to our heart is what separates us from lower life forms.

Having the self respect and respect for others to dissent, enhances that difference.

Anything less is too much!

[Col Mike]

#12836

Don’s reply actually exemplifies the reason this is the only forum I subscribe too.

Bruce I am always interested in your “strongly held opinions” particularly after the 2 screwdrivers:D.

Doc I agree with your thoughts—until the passionate things close to our heart–conflict with observation,tests, and scientific theory.

[Doc Nock]

#12873

colmike wrote:

Doc I agree with your thoughts—until the passionate things close to our heart–conflict with observation,tests, and scientific theory.

Mike, you ‘ve not heard that position of zealots that says, “DON’T confuse me with facts?!😯

There are many wrong minded folks in the world today…some even run things here or there! 🙄

Bottom line is that it’s easy to love those who agree with our views, the hard part is accepting those who don’t!!!

Tolerance is accepting those who are dead wrong in our mind, but dead right in their own mind!:roll::oops:8)

[Col Mike]

#13961

Doc

I believe that’s called Marriage:D

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#13977

colmike wrote: Doc

I believe that’s called Marriage:D

Ha! 😉

[Doc Nock]

#14002

Dead Men Walkin! :shock::roll::lol:

[SteveMcD]

#31122

I enjoyed Mike Mitten’s article. I can relate to the author’s position, not sure whether it is number of years hunting, but for me the thrill of the hunt is the hunt itself. I have passed up a lot of smaller bucks over the years, and some years that has meant an empty freezer. I just like letting the younger bucks walk. Just my personal preference . Having said that, I still believe ANY animal taken in an ethical fair chase manner (regardless of equipment used) is a well deserved trophy.

[Author]

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