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    • Fallguy
      Member
        Post count: 318

        What do you think of the recent news of a dentist from Minnesota Walter Palmer who baited a lion out of a refuge in Zimbabwe to shoot it with a bow?

        I believe this gives everyday hunters a black eye. He has a past conviction for poaching a black bear in Wisconsin in 2008. Hopefully he does not get off as easily this time, his fine in WI was under 3000.00. I am sure there well be a couple of large hunter organizations that well remain silent on this issue.:evil:

        http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/zimbabwe/11767119/Cecil-the-lions-killer-revealed-as-American-dentist.html

      • Stephen Graf
        Moderator
          Post count: 2429

          I heard another story on this incident that was a bit less inflammatory. In that version of the story, the lion didn’t have a collar, but had a tag. Not sure either one would be visible through all that mane.

          In the NPR story they had a quote from the Dentist in which he apologized for the mistake and wanted to make amends. That statement was left out of this story.

          This story quotes the guide as saying he had all the correct permits to hunt the area. If this is true, then it was bad luck for the lion and nothing more.

          The dentist also said he relied on his guide to have all the correct permits, etc. Which is understandable.

          On the whole, I don’t understand why people feel the need to travel around the globe and kill predators, rhino’s, elephants, etc.

          And I didn’t know how much $ a dentist could pull down. That’s some crazy cash that guy is spending. Must be some real bad teeth in his home town.

          If he had the correct permit, this is a non-story. If he did kill that lion without the correct permit, it’s nothing more than a poaching story.

          The one thing I did get from this story is that the timing of the season is bad. The season should be timed so that if a male lion is shot, the cubs in his pride would be grown enough to defend themselves when the pride is taken over by another male.

          The moral of this story is that the whole world is covered up by stupid.

        • Raymond Coffman
          Moderator
            Post count: 1235

            Well said Steve

            I definitely concur with your last sentence!

            cyberscout

          • ChumpMcgee
            Member
              Post count: 252

              I live in the Twin Cities area and people are putting signs all over his business “Coward” “Killer” etc. I have read several different stories on how he took the lion with luring him out of the park with bait, then shooting him at night with spot lights. If these statements are true then I will not stand by this guy. I am not sure if it is legal to hunt at night over there or not but as far as fair chase goes…not very ethical.

              Why I personally do not stand by trophy hunting and killing an animal just for its fur and leaving the meat…I will stand by any hunter who hunts ethically and legally regardless. If his statement is true that he was trusting his outfitters to hunt a legal animal, which sounds pretty reasonable, and he took the animal legally I will stand by him. To me it sounds like this guy paid a lot of money to legally hunt an animal and the outfitters were the bad guys.

              We will find out more on this story in the next couple of days

            • Cladinator
                Post count: 25

                I’m completely disgusted by this. This wasn’t hunting. It was poaching. This dentist has a history of trophy hunting and it sounds like some of these exploits were questionable in their legality.

                Permits? What permits make this legit? Zimbabwean permits? Let’s be real, here.

                And this guy also paid like $40k to shoot a trophy elk on a managed preserve. Not to mention the fine and probation he received for lying about where he shot a bear. He doesn’t exactly have an ethical history.

                This gives Americans and hunters a bad image. And it’s a shame but that image is important.

                I think trophy hunting is absolute trash. That’s my opinion and I’m sure others have their own opinions.

                But this, to me, is a serious violation of ethical hunting.

              • Arne Moe
                Member
                  Post count: 147

                  I don’t THINK I’m taking sides with this but I do not agree with taking this lion. I will say this though. IF I was to contract with a professional hunter in Africa (or anywhere else for that matter) I would have to rely on that professional hunter to put me on LEGAL game. IF I had payed a “trophy fee”, I would expect that that “trophy” would be LEGAL. Would any of you, contracting a hunt in a foreign place, expect anything else?

                  I know this guy has a history of difficulty in ethics (apparently) and MAY have broken game laws but again, where does the professional hunter/guide figure in this? As Paul Harvey would say,” what’s the rest of the story?”

                • Murray
                  Member
                    Post count: 46

                    Of course, I don’t know the whole, true story any more than anyone else who is reading about it. I did see a statement by Ivan Carter, a highly respected Professional Hunter in Africa. He said that what he learned was that there was no quota for lion in that area, so any lion kill would be poaching. Again, I don’t know the whole story, so I’ll keep my speculations to myself for now.

                  • Fallguy
                    Member
                    Member
                      Post count: 318

                      There has been many stories on the internet about this event. I know they are not ALL true but there just seems to be something that does not smell right here. Lion hunt is not a high volume animal for African safari’s. So the number so the number of guides that do it I think would be small. Palmer is a long time member of the Safari Club so he surely has the opportunity to contact many people in that group for information about guides and their hunting areas. To think he went to Africa to hunt Lions and just showed up in Zimbabwe with 55.000.00 in cash picked the first Pro Hunter’s name from the yellow pages and went Lion hunting I believe is a bit of a stretch.

                      My gut tells me through his inquiries he found a Pro Hunter with a set of ethics that closely matched his own.

                    • David Coulter
                      Member
                        Post count: 2293

                        Fallguy,

                        Thank you cor boiling down my feeling on this subject. Some stuff is hard to prove outright, but following a trail of bits of information lead you to a level of trust or distrust. Best, dwc

                      • Ralph
                        Moderator
                          Post count: 2580

                          Only in the eyes of the antis are people guilty and never proven innocent.

                          There may be something smelly about the whole deal but perhaps all was done legally??? Why not wait til the courts of the countries involved make their judgements.

                          Like Steve said, could be a cat in the wrong place at the wrong time? Or perhaps a dentist?

                          And if a dentists is wrong for hunting lions are there several of our archery ancestor heroes just as wrong?

                          Methods and means are totally different in other parts of the world and just because they’re different than ours?

                          Don’t go hunt there if it offends.

                          Just jumping to conclusions because of the news and the internet????

                          Let’s be fair and wait til it all gets told.

                          Then if wrong doing was done let the wrongdoers be punished. If legal, maybe it’s not agreed that that’s the way to do things but that’s their world and not ours.

                        • Doc Nock
                            Post count: 1150

                            Amen, Steve and R2,

                            Guys, when was the LAST time you found any media (print or electronic) to objectively report anything that has to do with our interests in hunting, be in bows, guns or whatever?!!!

                            If they lie as much about things I don’t or cannot know from half a world away, as I know they lie/lied about things here, that I know about intimately, then why would anything they say on such topics NOT be suspect!

                            I concur that if this man has done wrong, the proper authorities will handle it at the local level…if he can buy his way out, then he’ll just join the ranks of those who govern elsewhere, eh?

                            This world is not the final call…

                          • David Coulter
                            Member
                              Post count: 2293

                              There’s no question that the reaction from the Way Overboard has been extreme. I don’t agree with a lot that has be said, about killing animals is wrong and all that. But this case shows you how important it is to be outspoken about what happens within our ranks. “Our ranks” here include traditional archery, but our ranks as viewed by the world in its entirety include all sorts and mixed of personal views and ethical standards.

                              Trophy hunting might have its place in the world, as it adds to the economy and those who have a reason to protect their wildlife will protect it, even if it’s for a buck.

                              However, I have to say killing and trashing the meat is wrong. I have to say that luring an animal out of its protected area to kill it for profit is wrong. A lot of meat from trophy hunts have gone to feed the hungry and that should be the case if it isn’t eaten by the hunter.

                              It is also true that a hunter should be able to trust his guide or PH to know where he is and that the legal licenses have been purchased. Whether there was a wink and a nod in this case may never be known. Whether the hunter was in on it or it was just the guide, we may never know, but someone is responsible. That hunter was responsible when he lied to the feds about a bear. That guy paid is way clear of a sexual harassment case, too.

                              I don’t think the fellow should hang on this case based on his history, but we as observers have a right to form some opinions based on all of that, even though those same things might not be admissible in court. The public has a right to know things that a juror does not. That’s the law.

                              I think it’s important for us to discuss this and have our opinions to air out. We should obviously hold ourselves to the same standards as we hold others, too.

                              I appreciate this discussion. I hope I’m being clear on my ideas. Thank you, dwc

                            • Doc Nock
                                Post count: 1150

                                All that you say, David, are issues clear and close to my own heart…

                                All but the part where you insinuate that what is reported in the media is truth. We all know personally how distorted anything that has to do with BLOOD SPORT has been denigrated in the media.

                                Unless we live in a bubble, we know that the elephant hunts in part of Africa are the only revenue that have been available to keep poachers from decimating those incredible animals!!! Same with Cats…

                                Baiting is the only way cats have been taken in Africa since I began reading about hunting… Don’t like it? Me either. Not a problem, I can’t afford Air Fare to Africa let alone the fees to hunt them or the licenses!

                                To apply OUR standards to this situation, reported in conflicting revelations of the “FACTS”m is nothing less then what the “anti’s” have done to revile us without just cause and we’re playing into their hands.

                                I’m done with this thread. The man did a BAD DEED in ths Paar…was found guilty and punished…those with money, as we see in many venues, including high office, get by with much due to their finances.

                                But a person can change. Perhaps this man is guilty as sin, perhaps NOT. This is NOT the venue to try him and condemn that which is not known and react to what only is reported in MEDIA

                                Discussion is one thing, Keel hauling is another based on sources proven to be spurious for decades is something else…!

                                Again, I’ll sign off and not visit this thread again nor post.

                              • Ralph
                                Moderator
                                  Post count: 2580

                                  Me too, enough. I’ve seen to many stones cast at a man that hasn’t even been tried yet. Hung without a jury. Vigilante justice.

                                  He may be guilty, the whole bunch may be guilty but, until proven so…………..in this country that is the law, innocence until proven guilty. In Zimbabwe? In the press, no way does that work.

                                  Good day!!!!

                                • David Coulter
                                  Member
                                    Post count: 2293

                                    I’d like to offer up my apologies. I’ve managed to offend at least a couple of guys here, which was not my intention. I’ll continue to watch this issue, but will do it on my own and also bow out of this thread. I wish you all the best and appreciate the thoughts that have been offered. best, dwc

                                  • Ralph
                                    Moderator
                                      Post count: 2580

                                      No offense taken nor intended Dave. We all just track in different directions sometimes.

                                      Be well and hope your “bug” gets better soon.:D

                                      Ralph

                                    • David Coulter
                                      Member
                                        Post count: 2293

                                        Thanks, Ralph and thanks to Doc for your messages and your voices of reason. I’m just a bit passionate about an issue that is simple in some ways and very complex in others. It’s an amazing case study.

                                        I’ll enjoy continued reading of your posts. best, david

                                      • Col Mike
                                        Member
                                          Post count: 911

                                          Well David I don’t believe any apology is needed. Your opinions like others are respected and add to the discussion.

                                          IMHO this issue contains two aspects–the act and guilt or innocence. The act, trophy hunting, is in the 21st century undefended. Passing the issue to the courts is politically correct, morally irresponsible.

                                          In the final analysis–no matter what our opinions this individual and his actions have given hunting and hunters a reputation that is now world wide. In addition his alleged use of a cross-bow is translated as bow hunters. This link pretty much sums out how we will be perceived.

                                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LzXpE1mjqA

                                          Semper Fi

                                          Mike

                                        • Col Mike
                                          Member
                                            Post count: 911

                                            Hit save before I was done—the link also puts a nice twist at the end—perhaps some good will come. By the way did you see those bows in the pictures?

                                          • David Coulter
                                            Member
                                              Post count: 2293

                                              Mike, thanks. This video is worth a watch. Good to squeeze in a smile. Best, dwc

                                            • SteveMcD
                                              Member
                                                Post count: 870

                                                My 2 cents on the subject.

                                                It is really incredible the amount of both Media reporting  and public outrage has risen over the killing of Cecil the Lion. Surely, and we all know there are greater atrocities  that occur against  our fellow man every day. Even still, it is understandable, as the act of poaching, in the way this majestic  animal was murdered is deplorable. If we look at the man who actually shot Cecil, he is not an Ethical Fair Chase hunter, like most hunters, including myself. He has been prosecuted  on previous wild game violations in the past. He also has a record of being a sexual predator as well. He is a low life of a human being, a criminal.

                                                Unfortunately, all this despicable  notoriety draws questions to hunting itself. Number One… scientific  biological fact, what separated  Man from the Apes, was when our early ancestors  began to eat meat, the protiens in the meat allowed  the human brain to evolve and grow. Mankind has been a hunter for 98% of the past 3.8 million years. Although, most modern society no longer needs to hunt there are many that still do, whether it be for physical, social, physiological, psychological  or other needs. The fact is, it is part of us, it is just more apparent in some than others. If you look at the history of modern hunting today, one clearly must  recognize, that it was the Hunter that led the way, in conservation  efforts in this country and worldwide during the past  100 years. If not for the American  Hunter, we would not  have our National Park System, Wild Protected Designated Lands and the Wildlife we All enjoy today, Most would not exist today without the spearheaded  efforts  and funding that still exist today. Hunters and Fisherman contribute 10’s of Billions of Dollars annually, that go directly back into the Fish and Wildlife funds at the National, State and Local levels. All monies from hunting and fishing licences, as well as the 11% percent excise tax on all hunting and fishing equipment  goes directly back into the Acquisition, Protection  and Management  of Wildlife lands and Protection and Management  of our Fish and Wildlife, the non-hunting, non-fishing public does not pay for this, hunters and fisherman do. The reality is in nature, including mankind, everyone is somebody’s  dinner. The difference  is 1) Man has a conscience, and 2), what fish, meat and poultry  modern society  choses to eat, most are far removed from the killing of those animals, everything is presented in the supermarket where it is displayed in nice sterile, cellophane  and styrofoam  packages giving the illusion to most  that meat is manufactured  and not from a living animal.  If you were to ask most hunters why do they hunt, the act of killing would be at the bottom of the list. It is the anti climax, for many including myself a salom moment, even a bit of remorse. But I thank God for the animal and the meat it will provide. Why we hunt.., because it is more than just getting back to nature, it is being part of nature. It is about sunrises and sunsets, the scenery, the experience  of many wild animals, birds and places, it is a deep need — “For what is man without the beasts, if not for the beasts, man’s heart would die, from a great loneliness  of  spirit” — Chief Seattle 

                                                So, before anyone bashes hunting, you need to think about it. And if you bash hunting, but are not a true vegetarian, well then what does that make you?

                                              • Ralph
                                                Moderator
                                                  Post count: 2580

                                                  http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/safari-guide-killed-by-lion-in-zimbabwe/ar-BBm4XA1

                                                  Things ain’t so noisy when the shoe’s on the other foot. 😕

                                                • Fallguy
                                                  Member
                                                  Member
                                                    Post count: 318

                                                    That is because the lion followed the rules of Fair Chase.

                                                  • Col Mike
                                                    Member
                                                      Post count: 911

                                                      Fall Guy

                                                      Right on.:D

                                                    • Ralph
                                                      Moderator
                                                        Post count: 2580

                                                        Hang the rules of fair chase when it comes to things trying to kill and eat me and mine.

                                                        People have just as much right to be out in the wild as the animals do and it shouldn’t become a new order of fair play for them to eat people.

                                                        I happen to have sympathy for the family of the feller the lion killed, not turn about being fair play.

                                                      • Cladinator
                                                          Post count: 25

                                                          Good responses by all.

                                                          I should probably be clear about what I said in my original post.

                                                          Trophy hunting and wasting meat is trash.

                                                          Some trophy hunting may be legit and I understand it’s not always unethical, though it’s not for me.

                                                          Simply paying a ton of money for a guide to put you on an animal for the purpose of killing it (and not doing much else with it besides mounting its head) isn’t ok with me. I know some hunters are cool with that. I’m not one of them.

                                                          In my heart, it just doesn’t feel right.

                                                          Legality doesn’t necessarily make things kosher for me.

                                                          Luring an animal out of a preserve where it cannot be legally harvested by dragging bait behind a vehicle is despicable.

                                                          Even if you forget about the violator’s past transgressions this situation is pretty foul.

                                                          I’m willing to give anyone the benefit of the doubt. Especially, since the current times require us to take greater caution when listening to anything in the news.

                                                          Hunting ethics are important. We have to be unwavering in those ethics.

                                                          It’s good to see that despite some disagreements, everyone on this forum can be civil and respect one another’s opinions and views. That’s somewhat rare these days.

                                                        • Ralph
                                                          Moderator
                                                            Post count: 2580
                                                          • Stephen Graf
                                                            Moderator
                                                              Post count: 2429

                                                              Thanks R2.

                                                              I expect the rest of the charges against the other folks involved will be dropped pretty soon too, except for maybe the baiting charges.

                                                              Now if only people could get so upset about the greater plight we humans put such animals in, reduced habitat, poaching, disease, crappy zoo’s.

                                                              Extinct a species, no problem. Shoot a single animal, oh the outrage.

                                                            • David Coulter
                                                              Member
                                                                Post count: 2293

                                                                Thanks to Don Thomas for his column in themlatest edition of the magazine. Even if the lastest news came after deadline the column was well presented. Thank you, dwc

                                                              • Col Mike
                                                                Member
                                                                  Post count: 911

                                                                  Don

                                                                  Well done. That was the best roundup on this sordid incident I’ve read. And your last thoughts were right on. Problem is all who read it here will agree–we need to get that fine letter out to the other “hunters”. Any ideas?

                                                                  Semper Fi

                                                                  Mike

                                                                • David Becker
                                                                  Member
                                                                    Post count: 112

                                                                    colmike wrote: Don

                                                                    Well done. That was the best roundup on this sordid incident I’ve read. And your last thoughts were right on. Problem is all who read it here will agree–we need to get that fine letter out to the other “hunters”. Any ideas?

                                                                    Semper Fi

                                                                    Mike

                                                                    I don’t think this is representative of a problem just with hunters, but a reflection of the problems that our materialistic, “ornamental” culture causes, which leads to achievement of a goal without any thought to the means used to get there, coupled with a really toxic sense of the masculine.

                                                                    But that may be too much for a forum about bowhunting. :shock::shock:

                                                                  • David Coulter
                                                                    Member
                                                                      Post count: 2293

                                                                      Wose, that’s what elevates this site. Winning with a cheat is still winning so much of the time. It’s pervasive. Thanks. D

                                                                    • David Coulter
                                                                      Member
                                                                        Post count: 2293

                                                                        Ps. Wose, Krista Holbrook’s column in the latest magazine is indirectly about this sort of thing and the ramifications. Beat, dwc

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