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I guess the reason for this post is to ask advice, and criticism, on a fantasy of mine, or if you think it is an idea with merit…
After hearing some horror stories about unscrupulous Outfitters in my state of Washington, and the (what I consider) extremely high fees for practically no service being provided, I have been having a little daydream about starting my own little service. Not to actually make a living at, but mostly to provide an experience, cover basic costs, provide an opportunity for the “average” guy to afford an Elk hunting trip, with a reasonable chance for success, and help myself afford to spend more days afield.
I hunt Elk from a reasonably comfortable camp, get into Elk consistently, and even manage to pack one out occasionally. Although I don’t see very many “trophy” animals, ANY elk is a trophy to me.
What I have heard about is “Outfitters” who charge 3-4 thousand dollars, provide meals and a place to sleep, and sometimes a blind to sit in, but no real “guiding” or Elk hunting being done.
My idea is to make contact early in the year (at least several months in advance) provide educational materials about calling elk and elk behavior so they have a basic understanding about the animals we are pursuing, inform them about the area we will be hunting, provide maps and photos from scouting trips. Then when it is time, pick them up from airport, take them to camp, and provide a gourmet meal, warm, dry, comfortable sleeping quarters, and a friendly relaxed atmosphere.
Now it is time to do some Elk hunting! The day begins with an early morning breakfast, a short ride (vehicle) to a locked gate, and a day of walking, calling, and in general locating Elk. I usually get into Elk within a few miles or less of gate, but regularly have to cover 10-15 miles a day. I pack a lunch and snacks, if the Elk are not in the area that day, then I try a different location the next, in general keep looking until I find them. Back at camp, a quick, yet nourishing meal, and hit the sack, and do it all over again.
I would take personal responsibility to find the elk, and provide shot opportunities for any legal animal, and give them a “local” hunters insight into how to hunt for elk, not necessarily what you read about in most of those “how-to” books. Success is not guaranteed, but opportunity and an education, coupled with a pleasant atmosphere and personal attention, would be foremost in the experience.
If an animal is harvested, I would assist in care and handling (field dressing, game bags, and pack out) and help arrange locker and/or butcher and shipping arrangements for the animal.
I would only be charging for reimbursement of “study materials”, transportation, and food. Not “guide fees” as I am not a guide or outfitter (yet) and my desire is to establish a personal connection for a solid “customer base” if/when I would decide to actually start a business, catering to only a couple hunters a season.
All license and tag requirements would be the responsibility of the hunter, although I would provide information about tag selection and requirements. (Washington is OTC and unlimited)
I am also only considering Early Season Archery (early September), as that is when I am consistent in being able to locate elk, and am already hunting anyhow. If I was successful in gaining a positive reputation, I could even expand to possibly Early Muzzleloader (first week of October) in the future, although that would be for compensation, as I would not be hunting myself. I would not invite someone to suffer “the Pumpkin Patch” that is our modern firearm season, or November rains and winds that is the norm for late season.
So, in conclusion, what do you think? Would this be a viable course of action, or am I just a dreamer?
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Nothing worthwhile starts without a dream.
I’ve hunted a lot of things in a lot of states, provinces and countries archery, rifle, handgun, MZ (archery 1rst love of course!). I’m a “loyalist” meaning once I find the guide/outfitter I click with for the animal/area I’m interested in, that’s it for me, no reason to look further as far as that is concerned. I’ve enjoyed incredile trips multiple times with same folks. I’ve also had disasters with morons who have no business even calling themselves hunters, let alone elevating themselves to the level of guide/outfitter…
If your heart’s in it, and you’re doing it for right reason (and sounds like you are) then why not?
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I think if you could then give it a shot. I think an affordable elk hunt would be great. As far as trohpies go, in my opinion any elk would be a trophy. If you do decide to get this underway let me know, I’ve been looking into heading out west for a hunt in the upcoming years and an affordable would be just want I’m looking for.
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emsirrin wrote: I think if you could then give it a shot. I think an affordable elk hunt would be great. As far as trohpies go, in my opinion any elk would be a trophy. If you do decide to get this underway let me know, I’ve been looking into heading out west for a hunt in the upcoming years and an affordable would be just want I’m looking for.
As it is, I figure $500 for what I am offering, add a non-res licence and tag for $500, makes $1000 per person total, plus travel to either SeaTac or Portland, is that affordable for the “average” hunter ?
Of course butcher and shipping fees for meat and trophy could add up,,,
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I’ve never hunted with a guide/outfitter but have “dreamed” of doing so, someday. If/when I ever do, that is PRECISELY the kind of experience I’d be looking for! I hope that you are able to make this “dream” of yours a reality, and are able to set a precedent in the way things OUGHT to be! God bless ya!
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You will almost certainly be required to buy an outfitter’s license — which are limited in some states — and provide insurance, etc. I’d check these things out before dreaming further. Best luck.
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fattony77 wrote: I’ve never hunted with a guide/outfitter but have “dreamed” of doing so, someday. If/when I ever do, that is PRECISELY the kind of experience I’d be looking for! I hope that you are able to make this “dream” of yours a reality, and are able to set a precedent in the way things OUGHT to be! God bless ya!
That is exactly why there has been some horror stories about some hunters having bad experiences, currently in Washington state there is no requirement to have a licence, unless you are a fishing guide, a permit to operate on Forest Service land is the only requirement (except for a business licence to operate for profit) the area I hunt is on private timberland and state DNR, so that is not an issue. Also, due to me planning on basing the hunt on more of a hunting partner type experience, as we “partner” instead of me “guiding” it would be like inviting a friend to hunt, and just asking for money to cover expenses, not make a profit. After, and only after a few seasons, when I have a solid reputation, would I consider charging. And even then special consideration would be provided to those that were with me from the beginning.
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I think that would be a great way to go.
Most of us would want to hunt like this.
Low cost and to have someone show us the ropes.
A warm meal and place to sleep sounds GREAT to me!!
I would love to do something like this.
Good luck…
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I’m not sure where I fall in the “average hunter” category, but my kind of hunt would be to find public land, buy the tags and take my chances. Maybe research and find some folks on the various forums that have been in the area, etc. As a retired old fart, even $500.00 is a lot for me to spend so I would be rather particular.
Granted, folks nowadays can probably just put it on their plastic and not thing a thing about it. Remember, not everyone will be happy no matter what you do for them, unless they come home with a 7 X 7. Good luck with whatevery you decide.
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George D. Stout wrote: I’m not sure where I fall in the “average hunter” category, but my kind of hunt would be to find public land, buy the tags and take my chances. Maybe research and find some folks on the various forums that have been in the area, etc. As a retired old fart, even $500.00 is a lot for me to spend so I would be rather particular.
Granted, folks nowadays can probably just put it on their plastic and not thing a thing about it. Remember, not everyone will be happy no matter what you do for them, unless they come home with a 7 X 7. Good luck with whatevery you decide.
I began this post in reaction to stories of hunters paying $2500 to $4000 to come hunt Elk in Washington, and having experiences from room, board, and a map ($2500) to sitting in a box (permanent blind) over a pile of apples ($4000)
$500 might seem like a lot, but how much would you spend on food ? would Salmon, Sturgeon,Shrimp, Crab, Razor Clams, Oysters, Steamer Clams, garden produce, and fresh eggs be on the menu ? Throw in wild huckleberry pancakes, bacon, etc…
Included would also be the combined tips and tactics from “experts” on DVD’s that will shave years off the learning curve on how to hunt Elk, that collected on their own would run over $300 themselves.
Then taken personally out with a hunter that has first hand knowledge of local herds and their habits, saving days of scouting. The fuel savings alone could run pretty high.
Having the convenience of not having to worry about bringing and setting up camp, or even finding a good location (very limited camping in western Washington) or having to pay fees for campgrounds or the new DNR pass…
Seems like $500 is pretty reasonable.
Although a hunter with your reputation and experience would be more than welcome to come join the camp and “take your chances” but you would be expected to share your experience and advice. (stories) 😀 -
I believe there is a market for such a service, at least for some of the Trad guys here. I agree with Dave Peterson that you should make sure you’re not violating any laws. I also agree that you will not please everyone. Even though some THINK that’s what they want, reality has a way of changing peoples perspective. Sounds good to me though.
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I am not asking for any money up front, I am just looking for any interested hunters.
If you are interested, I will provide you with all the information you need to fulfill your end, (Tags, license) and then provide you with 2 options, either I send you copies of my “educational materials” at their going rate, and you pay me, or I provide you with the information to purchase them yourself, either way you get the same thing (I am not trying to make money off this aspect), I just get my money back. This involves an investment of $120, if you get them from me, I also send along 3 DVD’s from another source that are more entertainment (normal hunting video’s) than educational, but you can learn something…
Once we have done this, I have another source that is on-line, my password and access will be provided at half cost (I do get to cover half my own expense on this) this comes at a $25 fee…
So, to fill in what is happening, you pay for non-res Elk Tag, $495, after you commit to hunting in Washington, you spend $145 to get what I consider an education in what/how we will be hunting, $640 invested, plus whatever it costs you to get to either SeaTac, or Portland.
Upon arrival, you have money in your pocket (+/-$500) to help pay for fuel and food.
If you have more, great, but I am not charging, only asking for help to cover expenses, meaning, you help with fuel, and we drive to camp, I provide food, and comfortable sleeping arrangements, you pitch in what you can spare.
So, bottom line, I am saying, $1140 is about as affordable as any elk hunt out there can be, no guarantees about harvesting an animal, but the menu will include some Northwest cuisine, such as oysters, clams, crab, salmon, sturgeon, and steelhead., (steaks, burgers, fresh eggs, bacon, etc) and after one season hunting Elk with me, you can hunt ANYWHERE and know enough about Elk hunting/calling to be able to have a very good chance of success.
The main obstacle is in if you do harvest an animal, as processing/shipping can be pretty expensive, so that will be up to you, I can help make arrangements, but …
If this seems do-able to you, let me know, season dates are being set right now, and I am in the planning stages, but want to touch base with any interested hunters ASAP.
Anyone is welcome, but space is limited, 2 queen sized mattresses available, with all bedding, good food and company, again, not a guide service, just a hunting trip, no fees.
If you want to bring your own stuff, and hunt, you are welcome also, area is 3pt or better, or antlerless for Elk with a 10-15% annual success rate…
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Amoose –
sounds pretty good — especially for folks who have little experience hunting Elk/The West. Will you be hunting RM or Roosevelt Elk?
On expenses – I would charge a flat fee to all [ you probably already know the basic amount from hunts past] or at end of hunt, tally all expenses and everyone pays an equal share.
It Is surprising how many people will freeload / or complain that someone else didn’t pay as much etc. This has happened to me with “friends” Imagine what could occur –with people you just met.IMHO—
Scout.
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cyberscout wrote: Amoose –
sounds pretty good — especially for folks who have little experience hunting Elk/The West. Will you be hunting RM or Roosevelt Elk?
On expenses – I would charge a flat fee to all [ you probably already know the basic amount from hunts past] or at end of hunt, tally all expenses and everyone pays an equal share.
It Is surprising how many people will freeload / or complain that someone else didn’t pay as much etc. This has happened to me with “friends” Imagine what could occur –with people you just met.IMHO—
Scout.
This is a Roosevelt Elk hunt, coastal Washington. I also am reluctant to actually state an amount, as according to my understanding, that would put me in the situation where it could be considered “guiding” not a legal issue here in Washington on private timberland, but still a concern.
Also, because I am planning on taking only one or two hunters, if they don’t feel that they want to contribute a fair amount, they just will not be invited back, also, If I manage to write an acceptable article about the hunt, it would be pretty embarrassing for a freeloader to read about it between the covers of TBM… 😆
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Amoose
I understand, and with TradBow folks it shouldn’t be a problem. Sounds like you have thought about it in depth.
Good luck!
scout
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I have spent a lot of time, and research into this, legal requirements and everything I could come up with.
Really surprising to me that a permit is only required to operate a service for profit on National forest land in Washington State, and no regulations or certifications for Outfitter/Guides.
That explains the bad reports about outfitters in my region, no excuse for some of these “operations”.
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Amoose
You got me! I’d be willing to give it a try next season. I think you may be on to something….I consider myself experienced ( with everything but trad gear ❗ ). I’ve been blessed to have hunted/fished all over the and with a host of folks, good and bad….
On a bit of a “downer” note, you must be careful with your choices….I’m an insurance agent/broker by trade and have seen lawsuits that would blow your mind…everything from negligence to poor performance to people just plain not liking someone and trying to turn an illicit “profit”… I’m not trying to talk you out of it, on the contrary, I’d like to explore your idea….just be sure you have a complete understanding btw you and your “huntin’ buddy ” about expectations etc…while putting things in writing would seem an obvious choice, I caution putting things in writing IN THIS INSTANCE only insofar as that may be viewed contractually, thus elevating you to a guide, with all the liabilities thereof….insurance and fun with the state being at the forefront of those issues…:roll:
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Well, not sure what you are trying to say, other than “Be careful”….
Due to the nature of my “service” (or non-service) because it is basically an invite to hunt without compensation (as in not for profit) I don’t really need to worry about any contractual arrangements, and the only real risk is personnal injury from an accident in my vehicle (or eating my food :lol:)
And my auto insurance would cover that,well the personal injury part…
It is an invite to hunt with me, and not me guiding, we both will be hunting, with an equal chance of harvesting an animal (although I might be screwing around with my camera while you shoot) and sharing a camp.
If you are interested, PM me, and we will work out the details.
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I for one would be interested in the type hunt you describe. We have hunted archery drop camps and DIY. Hunt our pace and within our limits not not someone elses. For meals and a place to sleep (only) your $500 is CHEAP!! Most archers should be very happy with just an oppurtunity to see an elk much less a shot on one. TV shows are in high dollar locations!!!
Dave Peterson is right about insurance. I fell off the outfitter’s horse once and could see Law Suit in his eyes–he didn’t understand me then!
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I understand the reference, but almost all travel is on foot, the area I hunt is all walk in behind locked gates, no overnight camping allowed.
Although maybe a release of liability might be in order, I am reluctant, as again, it changes the dynamics from a “hunt invitation” to more of a “guided/outfitted” trip, something I am attempting to stay away from, for now…
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Amoose. Pursue your dreams. I am sure if you find the right “hunting partner” the experience will go just fine.
I offer to take archers to my spots if they ever express interest. My problem is that we inevitably get separated and I end up spending valuable hunting hours looking for them. So much for my hunt! I don’t like carrying a radio and they don’t have much range in the heavy timber and rough terrain so I have found them to be worthless.
A couple years ago I took an accomplished Oregon hunting neighbor with me to my Mt St Helen’s haunt. We got separated twice roughly two miles in. It started raining cats and dogs the second time. After a couple hours of back tracking and searching I worked my way back to the truck where I found him. He was sopping wet taking cover with his bow case over his head. It was a welcome sight to find him but I figured that would be the last time he would go with me.
Hopefully the person you find will be fiercely independent and resourceful, and has an understanding spouse in case you need to make an emergency call. Most found on this site probably fit that criteria.
Though I like the comradary I will go it alone. Maybe will cross paths one of these season.
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Thanks for the feedback, I also have been separated from a hunting partner like that, but it was in the Manastash (east-side) and a lot dryer, he could not figure out why the elk get getting further away….:roll:
He was the kind of guy who would get lost in a 7-11 😳
I ended up finding him, but was unable to get back into Elk that day.
He did manage to harvest a fat cow the next day, about 200 yards down a gated road before we got too far in (some people just get lucky) so we had him in camp for a few more years.
Since then I have changed my habits, one of those is I keep tabs on my partner with cow calls back and forth, keeping within 30-75 yards of each other, this helps me know where the other guy is, and also helps “paint the picture” of a couple cows, another reason I beleive in the mentioned “educational materials”, I want someone who will participate, not just tag along to do the shooting.
As far as crossing paths, I usually go to the TBW Rondezvous in Packwood, I am the big bald guy with 3 kids (2 daughters 6/9 and a son 3)and a huge Coleman tent (19X12)
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emsirrin wrote: I think if you could then give it a shot. I think an affordable elk hunt would be great. As far as trohpies go, in my opinion any elk would be a trophy. If you do decide to get this underway let me know, I’ve been looking into heading out west for a hunt in the upcoming years and an affordable would be just want I’m looking for.
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First it sounds like a good ideal .I know a few of the guides in our area are all about getting the dollar not providing a good guided hunt .What part of washington you from .I am in the tocoma area .other than that only thing i could say be sure you explain and outline in writing exactly what your service will offer and what is not it will save you alot of headache when the guy shows up thinking you will provide him that trophy animal. good luck
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First it sounds like a good ideal .I know a few of the guides in our area are all about getting the dollar not providing a good guided hunt .What part of washington you from .I am in the tocoma area .other than that only thing i could say be sure you explain and outline in writing exactly what your service will offer and what is not it will save you alot of headache when the guy shows up thinking you will provide him that trophy animal. good luck
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I agree, too many expect to charge thousands for Elk hunting an area where 250″ is about as big as you can expect, and although there might be a few bigger ones out there… ANY legal Elk with Trad equipment is a “trophy” in my book, and I only claim to be able to provide a chance to notch a tag, and really feel that the experience is more about a good camp, and a decent opportunnity to be successful.
Cooincidently, I am in contact with a couple of other Outfitter/guides hunting the same area, but they have a lodge, better set-up, but same ideals..
unfortunately (in my opinion) they are starting out charging full rates ($3000+) while I am attempting to get a reputation before I charge fees.
As it is, I am not “in business” until I get, or have a few testimonials from hunters to actually prove I can deliver, I want to be clear, I am not opporating for a profit, until I have credibility.
In order to establish credibility, I need some hunters to come experience what it is I am doing, then, and only then will I be comfortable enough to charge a fee.
My camp is more based upon just having a good hunt, good food, good friends, and some heart, liver, and backstraps in camp, not about killing “trophy” animals…
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Also, because I have been reprimanded by administrators for my posts seeming to sound like advertisements for clients, I want to make clear, I am not asking for any fees, nor am I soliciting, I am merely asking for advice, and seeing who might be interested in my type of “camp”
I am in the proccess of setting up my business and website, and am open to suggestions.
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Not sure what is up . I have tried to respond to this post twice now but nothing shows .Amoose what part of washington you from.You are in my neck of the woods .Sound like a good ideal you got there .Would double check your facts just to be sure had a buddy get in trouble few years back doing bout the same thing.State nailed him said he was operating as a guide . when is this rendouveous in packwood run .
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wolfkill220 wrote: Not sure what is up . I have tried to respond to this post twice now but nothing shows .Amoose what part of washington you from.You are in my neck of the woods .Sound like a good ideal you got there .Would double check your facts just to be sure had a buddy get in trouble few years back doing bout the same thing.State nailed him said he was operating as a guide . when is this rendouveous in packwood run .
Although Washington State does not require a person to have a guides license, you are required to have Liability insurance for your clients. You must also have a special use permit on all State, WDFW and Federal lands.
You can also be cited for operating for a profit without a business licence.
I live in Chehalis, and hunt near Naselle, and “The rendezvous is in August, check the TBW website for details…
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Amoose wrote: Seems all the “hoopla” was about nothing…
Out of 16 initial interested hunters, only one has not backed out…
Still looking forward to the attempt, but had to accept a Compound user as a client, with one Trad hunter for the whole season, and a Compound user for the first week.
I do have a few friends (Trad) showing up for camp, but hunting on their own, going to be a good season, but next year I hope to have a couple more serious “Trad” hunters..
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