Home › Forums › Campfire Forum › hunting shows part 2
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Hey guys, before TBM changed the campfire forum to this new one I had a post going about hunting shows pros and cons. I personally am offended by many of them. I believe the commercialization of hunting has a lot of parallels with the commercialization of many, I mean all of our holidays. Amidst all the advertising glitter the core meaning is lost. What are we willing to do about it. Do you think anything should be done about it. I have lots of other problems with many of these shows but I thought this might get the ball rolling.[Now therefore take I pray thee thy weapons, thy quiver and thy bow, and go out to the field and take me some venison… Genesis 27:3]
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I used to get pretty upset with product placement shots and the ubiquitous “I only use product X on my hunts.” I got over it by realizing that for the guys putting the show on it pays the bills. I wish I could get a TBM sponsorship all I would do is hunt, take pictures and write about it. 😉
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you have to realize that advertizement is simply what rules the television and most websites. And you shouldnt blame the guys that are utilizing someone elses desperate need to sell a product so they can do what they love and still be able to make a living. Youtube is the biggest form of a free service that makes money from advertizing and now they have made it possible for the users of this website to make a bit of dough, havent tried it yet but i am thinking about it? Anyway what i am saying, is basically the only difference between you and those hunters is they get there product for free, most of the time, that means that they still have jobs, like fred eichler runs a outfitting business. He just gets free arrows, bows, broadheads, and most likely trips so he can hunt when he wants. If it wasnt for this advertizement you speak of then you probably wouldnt be using this website, just thinking outloud!
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O.k, now that I’ve opened this can of worms, should people make money killing wild animals? Wasn’t market hunting a way for people to make money doing what they love? Of course the threat of species decimation isn’t there like with market hunting, but perhaps other pitfalls await down this road we’re going. Maybe we’ve already fallen into a few. Perhaps a better analogy would be prostitution. It seems to me few things can remain pure when ego and money are involved, and obviously, ego and money are the driving forces in that industry. I believe last time I posted this topic someone brought up the fact that many non hunters would also have a dim view of careers being built on the blood of wild animals. Yeah, maybe we would’nt be typing on a hunting website if not for outdoor t.v., but maybe we would. Nobody knows. But you have to ask yourself, are any percieved gains worth selling out what you love? Yellowfeather, I too would love a job writing and taking pictures for a magazine, what I’m talking about is the video aspect. Outdoor writers were my heros when I was a kid. Maybe I am hopelessly old school, But some how most outdoor writers don’t offend me. Maybe it’s because It seems that they have paid their dues and it seems that video creates instant credibility and fame. Another analogy comes to mind, this one elkheart came up with, pornography. The moment of truth, the death of an animal, the celebration of the kill. Some things are meant to be personal and private.
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I believe what you are talking about is bloodsport and it has been around for a long time. I don’t think hunting shows fall into that category. I love to hear my friends’ hunting stories. Sometimes they kill an animal and sometimes they don’t either way it is entertaining. Trully I think that is what the hunting shows are all about telling a hunting story and entertaining the audience, sometimes without killing a thing.
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Let me rephrase my last comment, some things shouldn’t be viewed in public. I don’t know what shows you’ve seen but the ones I’ve seen are the very definition of blood sport. Market hunting was not a sport. I don’t view any hunting as a sport.I don’t understand your statements. I know some guys that have a hunting show, telling a story is not why they got into it. Promoting products and, I believe personal promotion, are their motives. In other words, money and ego. I’ve been reading a Dave Peterson book, so I’ll admit, this topic is fresh and hot on my mind, but these deep issues need to be addressed. The non hunters will control our future, we need to keep our lifestyle pure.
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oo you are way off base, we need to stop talking about rifle hunting show and start talking about topics that should be one this site. Rifle hunters that have tv shows make the journey seem like going to the store and getting the meat, and it is probably not the hunters fault, it is the one sitting behind the computer editing the show, they make them all seem the same they need to think outside the box and make them less like going to a grocery store. Every time i watch Easton bowhunting tv or the best or worst of tred i feel like i know those guys and like they are in it to hunt, to have fun and get some freezer meat, fred especially. Sure there was probably some ego in him when he decided to go for the super slam but i think he just wanted to travel and see every species in north america. But you need to stop saying market hunting, because they are not hunting to sell the meat on a market, that is market hunting. In a way they are market hunting in the fact that there show is market hunting for veiws. But that is the only market hunting that happeneds with a hunting show. Also non hunters are not aware what happeneds in real hunting situations, they do not understand what happeneds when hunting is no more so they will do whatever it takes to get rid of us untill we are gone, then the death toll on car accidents involving wildlife comes up, and crops are destroyed and they will beg and plead for us to come back, and that could happened with or without hunting shows!!!
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I’ve been hunting for over 30 years, I know animals get killed. I don’t watch them, but because these shows are public they represent all of us to some degree. I’m not saying these shows are the same as market hunting, I’m saying there are parallels( killing wild animals = $$$$). You guys need to READ my posts. If you read my post you’ll understand where I’m coming from. I’m simply asking, should money be made on the killing of wild animals for public viewing. You don’t need video to sell hunting equipment, that was going on long before video came along. Should everything come down to how much money can be made from it? Most of you who have replied seem to have accepted the idea that everything does come down to money. I’m not saying all of YOU are greedy, I’m asking you to think a little deeper. I’m asking where do we draw the line and say some things aren’t for sale.
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sorry to jump on you earlier. i dont watch the hunting shows anymore because of how they view the animals, as wall hangers rather than animals that had to die to put meat in the freezer. it also bothers me to see these guys reaction after the shot. thee is no sympathy for the animals, they hoot and holler, have a huge laugh and then put a head on the wall:!:that is why i dont watch them anymore. it sounds like you have your reason too, and for that i am sorry to be quick to judge you. no hard feeling. i know everyone on this site is an ethical hunter with their own opinions. again sorry:lol:
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johnny2 wrote: I’ve been hunting for over 30 years, I know animals get killed. I don’t watch them, but because these shows are public they represent all of us to some degree. I’m not saying these shows are the same as market hunting, I’m saying there are parallels( killing wild animals = $$$$). You guys need to READ my posts. If you read my post you’ll understand where I’m coming from. I’m simply asking, should money be made on the killing of wild animals for public viewing. You don’t need video to sell hunting equipment, that was going on long before video came along. Should everything come down to how much money can be made from it? Most of you who have replied seem to have accepted the idea that everything does come down to money. I’m not saying all of YOU are greedy, I’m asking you to think a little deeper. I’m asking where do we draw the line and say some things aren’t for sale.
I think i understand what you are getting at. There are some shows out there that just promote product and lose the aspect of the hunt. But some of those shows do help us. Let me explain.
I used to work with two friends. Non-hunters, but were interested. They watched the outdoor channel and wanted to shoot BIG BUCKS. I laughed and said its not that easy, but I’ll help ya out a lil. They both went for their saftey courses and bought bows (yes, compounds) They spent the summer practicing and were pretty good.
The 1st day out we didnt see much. Just rubs, scat and bedding areas. The second day while my 1 friend was set up in a ground blind about 40 yards from me, he started going bannanas pointing. I made my way to him, he started ranting about this HUGE DEER he saw. I called my 2nd friend over and the 3 of us tracked. 20 min later we came across his HUGE DEER, a 2 year old doe; not the “monster”, but it was to him. ( And me too!) We never got a shot but they were out the rest of that season a bunch of days with me. They didnt harvest that year but both did the next. ( 2 nice doe’s)My point is, those shows got two hunters in the sport we love. They put $$ into wildlife management that keeps land open and herds strong. We need promotion of our love. As I stated above, some shows I dont agree with, they are in it only for the money. But as I also stated above my two friends were new to hunting and went crazy over a doe. i have 20+ years and more that a few deer in the freezer, I felt the same way… My heart was pounding just as much as them. That is passion we need to instill to continue to have public land stay open. I have a hunting partner that has hunted with Ted Nugent many times, Ted still gets giddy over every deer or pig he shoots. Yes he promotes, but only stuff he believes in!! And yes he has shot more deer than most of us all put together. If we can promote that feeling then we are winning.
I moved to a recurve b/c I wanted a different kind of hunt. Some people bash this or that type of gear (compound bow, rifle, etc) I feel if you are getting out there and hunting ethicle and within state regulations then whats wrong with it? It may not be your cup of tea but it is for someone else. I hunt with a pistol during firearms season. My girlfriend wants to hunt with a compound; is that wrong? def not! The more people who hunt and get out to promote the better off we are.
I LOVE hunting with a recurve! I get close and more often that not, I go home with just a smile. Isnt that what its all about?D
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I have to agree with tex here. You pointed out a couple of the things that bug about the shows. I _have_ seen a few hunters that aren’t hootin and hollerin when they kill something though.
johnny2 you come across as awfully angry with the whole situation. My opinion on the affect these shows are going to have on non-hunters is that they make good amunition for them. But, that with or without these shows as ‘evidence’ they are going to be against hunting – heck they may even be against eating meat and live plants in general.
As for the moment of the kill (or miss) being deeply personal – it definitely is. I am the who pulled the trigger, so to speak, and killed the animal. No one else knows exactly how I feel about it and I don’t know that I could explain it to them. I get a surrogate but equivalent feeling when watching or even hearing about someone else kill or miss an animal. So I guess, for me, it is a replacement to me being in the field. Although, I have to admit not a perfect one. I can’t speak to how right or wrong it is for me to watch or someone else to put the show on though. -
dave19113 wrote:
I LOVE hunting with a recurve! I get close and more often that not, I go home with just a smile. Isnt that what its all about?
DYep, that’s why I like it.
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Guys, let’s not try to guess my feelings or turn this into something personal. I do think I need to clarify, when I say non hunters I don’t mean anti hunters I mean the large numbers of people who aren’t fully on either side . I’m asking what your views are and expressing mine. I’m just concerned about where we’re headed as a hunting community. I understand the living vicariously thing. I love to hear other peoples stories too. When I look at a deer or turkey or any wild animal I see a wonderful creation, any time I see an animal while I’m hunting it literally takes my breath away. Time in the woods is precious and sacred. I get angry when other people look at these things that I love so much as a way to make money. It just seems disrespectful and wrong. I don’t think a bunch of new hunters tutored by the outdoor channel is a good idea either. Maybe folks like us who have been hunting for a few years should be doing the promoting and tutoring. Like I said before, this is a topic to think about.
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Okay. i thought about it. i see that you are “passionate” about this topic. what I said before about not watching hunting shows anymore isnt all true. I REALLY enjoy watching Tred Barta. It is because of his show and Tradional Bowhunting magazine that lit the fire in me to go stricty tradional. so there is a hunting show with a possitive message…for me. it is hard to say if these shows light a fire in “non-hunters” to go out and try hunting for the first time, or if they offend them. it is not up to us to deside. all i know is that the people that have these shows are smart enough to find a way to make a living doing what they enjoy. may be i am just a bit jealous of them and that is why i dont watch alot of them. who knows. maybe you are too:?:
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Texasota, again, don’t try to guess my feelings. You don’t know anything about me other than this post. Let’s just stick to the subject. Yes, we’ve established that some people make a living doing this, do you think it’s right for people to make money by killing animals for public view. That’s it, that’s my only question.
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Hey y’all just thought I’d weigh in here. I think Johnny2 is quite correct. The time we spend hunting should be deeply personal. After all we might take a life. I don’t want to sound too “touchy feely” but an animal we hunt and or kill deserves our respect. The guys on the hunting shows who hoop and holler are making hunting out to be a spectator sport. As game and land stewards we must be as respectful and responsible as we can. Our future as hunters depends on our actions today. andy
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This one’s a tough subject to weigh in on. Johnny2, when I first started reading on this thread, I was sure you were po’d at the hunting world as a whole for allowing kills to take place on video. As I read farther, I realized that I’d jumped to a conclusion. You are right that taking an animal’s life is something that should be deemed a personal venture and celebrated (or mourned, whichever a person may wish) only by them and those that are with them. It is a very personal venture. I myself do own a few hunting videos. I love the footage of big mulie bucks and big bulls. It gets my blood pumping to watch those animals on tape. However, it would suit me just fine at the same time if those hunters never got a shot at the animal. Some of the videos I’ve seen have helped me in such a way that I can learn from the mistakes those hunters make, too, though. There are generally two things that bug me about videos. First, most hunters on tape only care about where the animal will score in the record book. Sure, I love looking at big antlers, but most hunters do. I just don’t have what it takes to be a true trophy hunter. I like the meat more than I like the horns. More tender on the palate. Secondly, as for the kill, it wouldn’t hurt my feelings if they cut that part out of the video. Spine shots in particular. I don’t like seeing spine shots on animals. If a hunter makes that kind of shot, I don’t really want to know about it. Thank you for this thread and the opportunity to voice an opinion on something I really hadn’t taken the time to really think about.
Michael
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I am not a seething bundle of anger , but I do get angry when good things( or good people, but that’s a different subject) are exploited. Why is everyone so concerned with a diagnosis of my feelings? This is starting to look like my 14 year old daughter’s facebook page. I believe I’ve made my feelings quite clear. I want to know yours. I don’t want to fight about it, I want to discuss it, maybe open some minds to a new way of looking at things. Likewise I hope there are some thoughts out there that will broaden my thinking, but I don’t think your gonna change my mind. Peace.
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I have no problem with hunting videos. To me they are the same as books and magazines the only difference is you watch instead of read.
The are good for education and entertainment and neither would be available for us to use if people couldn’t make money from it. If you don’t like it don’t read it or watch it. A kill shot on video is no different then a harvest pic in a book or magazine and neither bother me, it is real life and a part of the hunt.
When I don’t like an article or book I put it down. When a show comes on I don’t like I turn it. 😀 -
Hi Jonny
Nearly replied to your post yesterday but my reply became so long winded and analytical it was embarrassing.
Her is my view for what it’s worth, traditional archers aren’t slaves to fashion otherwise we wouldn’t be traditional so no amount of advertising is going to persuade us to buy lots of shinny things we don’t need.
If you don’t like the blood and guts don’t do it or watch it.
TV’s are all fitted with a variety of switches the most useful one being the one that turns it off.
Man has been celebrating the hunting and killing of animals since and probably before he began painting on cave walls.
Morals and ethics, I hunt because it satisfies a primitive desire, I don’t need to hunt I could go to a supermarket, I don’t need to be analysed, I pit my whit’s against animals that are better adapted to their environment than me preferably using a bow and sometimes I prevail and provide food for me, family and friends, that’s it.Happy huntin, Pothunter.
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Alright there is alot of talk about ethics and morals. Most if not all of you are on the nose but i think the whole personal thing about the actual shot is a bit off. I know for a fact what goes into getting that shot on the camera, and i know that if you do it yourself or even it you share that capture of the moment into time(via video) it is the best feeling in the world to be able to share that moment with others who care. Do i make money off it? Not yet, but would i like to, heck yes!!! But i dont want to do it for money, i want to do it because i love mixing my passion for film with my passion for hunting!!!
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Johnny2
Sorry if I came across as trying to diagnose your feelings about hunting shows. I wasn’t. I was just pointing out that that is how you came across about the issue. At least to me, anyway. And I didn’t say you were a seething bundle of anger. Just wanted to make that clear. If you read farther into my last post, you will find my feelings on hunting videos. Anyway, thanks again for the opportunity to weigh in on this subject.
Michael
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Yes i think it is okay to make money from harvesting animals for public veiw, but to an extent. Lets say for example that you make a bad shot on a animal and it is sprawling around on the ground, making noises, that should be edited out, and i have seen people on tv that have not edited it out. And that is wrong!
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This is becoming like a political or religious debate, carefully craft a question and ask for a one word answer.
If I answer YES to your question am I some kind of pervert lusting after blood.
If I answer NO does that mean we should ban duck stamps because they encourage the killing of ducks.
No more please you are giving me a headache!!!!
Off to find the paracetamol, Pothunter.
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Pothunter, dude, I’m just curious as to what folks think. Nobody is labeling anyone anything. I’ve voiced my opinion what’s yours. Maybe this subject is a little deeper than you care to comment on, fine, don’t comment. It’s not religious, where did you get that? Nobody is trying to bait you into an answer and then condemn you for it. Let me make one other thing clear I’ve been hunting for over thirty years, I’ve killed numerous animals, I have no problem with the death of animal or the blood. My problem is with the marketing of the act. It’s just something to think about, and I want to know what folks are thinking. I know it’s a very controversial subject, I can tell by the way most of you dance around it. You talk about me being angry or if I don’t like it don’t watch but you don’t answer the question. For those of you who answered boldly, thank you and I respect your thoughts, even if you didn’t agree with me.
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As much as I do not care for some shows, showing over-celebration, fenced in hunting, and diminishing the importance of any animal’s life (e.g., “here comes a shooter”). There are some good shows out there too. And I have no doubt they are of a tall order to produce. If you don’t like something about a particular show, 1) turn it off, and 2) let the sponsor know of your distaste – that will get a reaction.
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Just thought I’d poke this old thread with a stick and see if there were any more debates in it.
Please, no more instructions on how to turn off my T.V. or comments on my emotional state. However, if you don’t like the content of my posts you can A: read another post B: don’t read any post or C: turn off your computer.
Just messin with you guys.:D
Thank you
Johnny
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I will poke at it again, as I have new information to share. The other day I was looking into what exactly goes into getting a TV show on the air. Some stations are pretty strait forward, you send them a pilot and if they like it they giver you a time frame and you get as much film as possible under your belt. However other networks are not so simple. I will tell you that after reading the literature on the Outdoor Networks site I am pretty sure that that company is owned by peta!? That is a overexaggeration of course but not that far off. They have alot of rediculous rules on what you can and cant do on film. Alot I will admit are some good rules but some are just redicuous?
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I have better ways to use my short life on earth than watching stupid boys doing ugly things on TV in the name of sport, challenge, manhood. But then, I have better than to do than watch any TV and feel sorry for those who don’t. It’s a failure of the imagination.
Certainly, this here internet has even worse to offer if we search for it, which I don’t.
Bottom line: I try to boycott any product or service that advertises on TV outdoor shows. I don’t even like Trout Unlimited’s program as it seems the producers have decided that it’s necessary to dumb it down and Ye-haw! it up to attract the attention of that particular set of viewers.
That’s all I have to say about that. bb
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wow that is harsh, I hate to tell you but our sport is, now a days, run by advertisment on these shows!?
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I don’t know about you but my idea of hunting is not, has not, or will ever be run by advertisement on any show! Furthermore, NO part of my life will be!
GTA, I’m going to assume from your posts and your picture that you are a young man. You probably haven’t known a time without hunting shows. Do a little research, hunting is as old as homo sapiens as a species. It will never be “run” by any greedy attempt for financial gain. It is in fact an attempt by most conscientious hunters to free themselves from the shackles of these crappy “civilized” ways of making a living, constant corporate ad bombardment and overall lunacy of our modern world. In short, part of the reason I hunt is to rebel or ” give the finger” so to speak, in the face of all that junk!
This was one of my points on all my other posts. Please, all you gadget mfgs, all you wannabe huntin heros, all you corporate fat daddys jumping on the hunting badwagon. You can and have run amok with everything else in this world. Just leave our outdoor pursuits honest and pure!
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No sorry jonny I think hunting is driven by advertisment. Mabye not traditional archery. But hunting definatly is! Look at where our fellow hunters are today. Do you think Matthews would ever be where they are today if they hadnt pursuaded there first customer to buy there bow. for all we know if matthews was not discovered then our section of the hunting community would not be so special. Because without the single cam technologie there probably wouldnt be the huge demand for the compound as there is today. I am sorry to say this but I think that the already low amount of hunters would be almost deminished to a select few, because our sport is to hard without all the modern technologies for most people! Remember opinions make the world go round!
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Hmmm… this is a tough subject. There are some good shows out there too. I cannot lump them all into one category as bad. Easton Bowhunting with Fred Eicher, Eastman’s Sportsmans & Bowhuinting Journals, Bowhunter Mag TV. As far as making a living from the hunting industry, you’d have to broad brush a wide spectrum of occupations, professional and other wise. Isn’t Primal Dreams a hunting video? What about magazines like TBM and Bowhunting, and Bowhunter Magazine to name a few? Don’t they all make a living from this industry? I say industry because technically that’s what it is.
Much of this media, for many is all they have to get information. I remember when the Amercian Sportsman with Curt Gowdy was the only sportsman’s show there was. Most of what I learned about bowhunting then, was either from friends or whatever I could get my hands on and read, and experience is a hard teacher. Maybe the best – but still a hard teacher.
No sir.. I am glad for the media and sources of information we have today. Just recognize the bad ones for what they are (30 minute infomercials) and change the channel.
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GTA, the fact that you think Mathews is the bedrock of the bowhunting lifestyle confirms my previous suspicions. Bowhunting is supposed to be hard. The hard is what makes it good. Read the back page on the latest issue of TBM.
Steve, maybe I got a little carried away there. Heck maybe you guys were right earlier in the thread, I do get angry. I think bullyboys post fired me up. But come on, there is a difference between providing some products to help a hunter out and the greed that permeates these shows nowadays. As I’ve stated in previous posts I have lots of problems with these shows. As I’ve also said before, I grew up on outdoor books and magazines. People with nothing to sell but a story, and the expertise to give good advice as is the case(sometimes) today. There is no comparing the Curt Gowdy shows and Primal Dreams With the trash on the outdoor channel I don’t care what magazine backs it or whether a host shoots traditional or not. What valuable hunting info can be gleaned from our current crop of hunting heros? What lodge to stay in? What bow to shoot? What kind of feeder to buy? Perhaps it’s just a sign of the times. This is the age of instant celebrity(with no real talent).
I take it personally. It’s a reflection on me as a hunter and it reduces my lifestyle to a marketing ploy and ego trip.
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Why cant you compare Primal Dreams to other hunting shows? I would be willing to bet the guys that made Primal Dreams made a bit of money off of the video they made or the broad heads they sell or the flash lights or the guide hunts they offer.
Everything revolves around money whether you like it or not.
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The animals are not reduced to “shooters”, there are few if any kills shown, nobody is standing over a dead animal trying to peddle a bag of attractant, no hip-hop handshakes, no lodge banner in the background, no Pope and Young class egos, no motorcycles, respect for the animals is in evidence. Need I go on? Read my post dude. Products that help a hunter out, expertise, I got no problem with making a living on that. But refresh my memory, were there any ads in that video? I don’t think so. Did these guys make this video to promote themselves? No. I watched Gene and Barry’s videos years ago. They were always educational and thoughtful. Now flip on any show on the outdoor channel and ask these same questions. Better yet actually talk to some of these folks if you get a chance. I have. Common sense , respect, and everything in moderation.
Speak for yourself, the most precious things in MY life don’t revolve around money.
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Okay let me say it again, MATTHEWS IS THE BEDROCK OR TODAYS INDUSTRY!!! Not ours, seeing as how they only have like two trad bows. No self respecting compounder would shoot anything without a single cam! And yes bowhunting is suppose to be hard but everyone else on this planet that hunts besides the traditional branch are trying to find ways to make there hunt easy. Mabye you need to watch more hunting shows and you would know that!
In respects to Fred Eichler, so what if he trys to sell easton arrows, at least he is not like the other guys and his sponsors dont sell crap, if he stands by his gear then good for him. Guys are always wanting to know what other guys use. I see it all the time on youtube, I dont tell them what type of bow or arrows I shoot because I didnt think it mattered. People who want to get into our sport especially need this type of advertisment because they need someones opinion to go off of, especially kids in my type of area where there are not many traditional bowhunters. I would not be involved in this sport today without those hunting shows!!!!!OO and that last comment of yours, you may not think of your most precious things not revolving around money but Im sure the things that make them happy, revolve around money!
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yea you are probably right, after all 18 year olds are never wrong, I am sure you remember that!:D
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Hi Greatreearcher
There are some folks that will argue with the guy in the shaving mirror, don’t bite, his meds just need reviewing.
Mark.
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I like hunting shows on television…not all but a few. I’ve been watching Monster Bucks since I was old enough to remember and it helped spark the fire that has turned me ,through a personal journey, into a traditional bowhunter. Those shows helped me live out hunting season throughout the year and I’m thankful for them and the role they’ve played in my development.
As far as killing animals for money, my greatest heroes which i’ve only read about, used to do it all fall and winter, but they were mountain men and trappers.
My views are definitely biased as I’ve operated a camera filming shows for the outdoor channel. I think these shows do more good than harm. There are people everywhere who live in cities and can’t hunt as often as they like. I consider these shows a great escape and learning tools to some degree. -
Justin you make a great point that I didnt even think about. My great uncle lived out the better part of his life on a trap lease in the yukon. Me made his retirement off his 20 by 60 miles of yukon wilderness trapping everything from coyotes to mink. He made a living off killing animals. His “partner” also made a living off helping others kill animals as he was a guide? Just something else to think about!
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Thanks for the topic, Johnny2. It has made me think for the past hour or so about hunting mentors. My dad took me hunting one week a year when I was a kid, and in HS a brother in law got me into traditional archery. But they both really just let me go hunting with them once in awhile.
In hindsight, my only real learning about hunting came from books, magazines, and hunting t.v. shows. So, thanks to all who’ve taken the time to write and produce shows. I owe you, as you’ve been my bowhunting mentors. -
I agree that modern “hunting” is driven by advertising. But I will fight to the death (that is, everyone else’s but me!) that it SHOULD NOT BE. No matter that a few programs we may find to be good. So long as the majority, or even one, is stupid and ugly and points gullible would-be hunters in the wrong direction, I have to cancel the whole shebang from my life. But I am a freak, having given up teevee decades ago as a useless waste of time. Hey, when we’re on our dying beds and laughing and crying about what right and rong we’ve done in our lives, how many of us will say “I wised I’d watched more TV!” As my daughter would say, “Get a life.” My $73.21 wortth. BB (But hey, compared to other sites I’ve been on, youse guys are doing great in arguing about Things rather than insulting one another because you dis-agree. Any discussion that avoids that sort of bottom-feeding carping has got to be worthwhile,e ven if I cain’t stay up with it all. bb
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Well….Dave, ol buddy. I gotta say I am a bit shocked you aren’t in here but……..then again, you’ve written it all for us to read in your commentary in the last TBM (last page). It includes a bit on the basics of this subject, and additional things closely linked to it.
David Petersen and I don’t always agree on things (being human, lol) but for the most part ol “Dave2old” has her down pretty pat.
I’m SERIOUSLY thinking of cutting the last page out of the last TBM magazine and FRAMING IT.
Afraid, David is NOT, and God Bless him for it.
Sometimes things NEED TO BE SAID and people need to put on their thinking caps on a LOT of this.
“Should people make money killing animals?”
IMHO, NO……..but where there is money TO BE MADE, it’s gonna happen, like it or not.
It’s all become dollars and cents, not “dollars and sense”!
Again, just my opinion but… David’s work is once AGAIN, well worth the read and I am hoping, should it not infringe on the TBM regs that he will copy and paste his work on that subject here.
Yes, moderators, we all should be getting issues of TBM but…again, sometimes money isn’t the ONLY issue????
God Bless for considering to allow Dave to paste that article ,or at least the first few paragraphs (OMG….a buddy and I was cracking up. Tell us how you REALLY feel, Dave?):shock::lol:
NO offense intended, David. We agree with you wholeheartedly but dang if you don’t have a unique way of putting it!!! I never miss anything by David Petersen, even if I don’t always agree it’s always worth the read and time spent thinking on it!
I, for one, want to thank Dave for it all as well.
“TEE VEE Outhouse Channel”…….FOR SURE!! 😉Steve Sr.
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First off I would like to say that Dave you are one of my heros, and please DO NOT TAKE THIS THE WRONG WAY. because I respect the fact that you are making a living of our passion, like I someday hope to. But I also read your article under Campfire philosipher, I thought it was really insightful. But I just thought it was ironic that at the end your new book was advertized! I dont blame you or the magazine of anything, just reiterating, I think that it may not be neccesarily okay to kill animals and make money off it, but I definalty think it is okay to hunt and make money off experiences and storys and knowledge that just might have been experienced or taught while hunting. That is what traditional bowhunter magazine is making money off of, and what Dave is making money off of and basically every hunting show is making money off of. However some hunting shows just do it more tastefully than others.
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Well I can say this: I used to watch a lot of hunting videos. I don’t anymore. I do watch Easton Bowhunting TV. I watch it because I believe Fred is a hunter with morals , spirit and passion for the hunt. I like how when he misses he says he missed. I like the out takes at the end,( when he shot the I believe it was a woodland caribou and made fun of how small it was). I don’t care for the shows that trophy hunt: oh that wasn’t a big enough bull or what ever the case maybe. I get either sex tags for the main reason it give me more opportunity to harvest. I have a problem with a video I saw on a web site where a guy filmed his own deer hunt sitting in a tree stand over a feeder. That makes my blood boil. With all that said I believe it is our duty as moral hunters to watch the shows that do it right and not watch the shows that we find morally wrong. This does two things. Being that all TV shows are based on ratings we simply do give them what they desire: the ratings and those will be weeded out.
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Is it right for people to make money off the killing of animals? Hmmm (to borrow from GFA), I’ve sold an occasional magazine article and a few books on bowhunting. I have three brothers: one is a store manager for Scheels with a well-equipped hunting department, another is a teacher and taxidermist, and little brother is a big game outfitter in Canada. I guess we’re all bad guys. 😥 So are ranchers for that matter.
We need to remember that market hunting was made possible by the eastern restaurants’ and town folks’ insatiable appetite for wild game. Without the market there is no market hunting. That said, there apparently is a market for hunting videos, so let’s think about this.
Getting to videos in specific, Primal Dreams (Wensels/Mittens) was an awesome production and certainly portrayed bowhunting in a way I would suspect most here would say was positive. The people who criticized it most were those upset with the almost complete lack of ‘kill shots.’ 😯
I’ve got to admit that I watch very few TV shows because I don’t have the expensive tiers on my TV, but those I have seen I have mostly gotten done watching and felt like I just blew an hour of my precious time that I will never, ever get back. Sometimes I get that feeling after being on-line too, but let’s conveniently forget that for now. 😀
Each year I’ll buy a DVD or two, perhaps Dream Season or PrimeTime. For one, I like seeing the truly big bucks on video that I just rarely see here in Nebraska. Secondly, I’ll sometimes use these in the weight room when I can’t run and am on the elliptical or something. (Sure beats Oprah).
Third, I always come away from the videos critiqueing the guys in them, and how they performed at the moment of truth as well as whether they’re the kind of guys I’d like to hunt with, or complete egotistical, immature dorks…or any of the many shades of gray in between. For instance, I watch Steve Snow and I get the impression not only that he’s a cool customer in the stand at crunch time, but that he’s not going to embarrass himself by high-fiving everyone in the camera crew ten times each and gobbling out loud or owl-hooting or pulling out a measuring tape or counting out loud all the obvious points (on a typical 8-pointer!). Give me a break. Some of the other guys, I can’t say that about.
I think that good hunting videos could be made, but they are few and far between when they exist at all. Some of the good ones could become great by being more educational. Instead of glossing over the bad hit or poor shot timing or miraculous trailing effort on a marginal hit, or why they’re only recovering in broad daylight that “perfect” hit they made last night even before it got dark, they could use those points to educate…admit they screwed up, that they were lucky, and explain what they should have done. A great video might also show how a guy hits a new property (public even) and helps newbies understand how to scout and select tree stand locations. Of course, killing does and 100″ bucks isn’t going to sway much of the masses, nor are they going to sell many videos without some big numbers on the front of the package.
These videos filmed off exclusive properties aren’t indicative of how 98% of us hunt, but then again Hollywood movies with all their “beautiful people” and special effects really aren’t indicative of how most of us live either. 😥 My life seems more like “Married With Children” instead. 😆
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I hope I dont sound like a broken record, but it seems like I keep coming back to one thing. That is that these specialty shows such as Easton Bowhunting, or even Tred Barta show the importance and dedication that everyone should put forth to maintain our morals. I am sure that the producers of these shows would love to be more educational like how to skin game and so on, however like I said before in this thread they are very restricted by the networks most of the time. Heck the 3rivers commercial was banned from the Outdoor Network for impact shots, and these guys cant show how to skin a deer because it is “to graphic”. I agree that they definatly should not show extremely nasty things, but these newbies do need to know how to do these things, now in Easton bowhunting, they now have a segment with Chuck Adams called better bowhunting, and that segment is very helpful, but again they can not show these things! I actually was on a school feild trip when I realized that my freind had called like 5 times, he was trying to get me because he needed me to show him how to skin his deer, which I had no problem with that but it would have been easier to have some show on tv to help him!
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Well.. I was a little taken back tonight. I was looking at the Mathews Archery Show tonight with David Watson. I normally don’t watch this show, but it was showing a Church Run Youth Archery program. So I thought it would be worth watching. Now of course all the bows were the “Genesis” Cable Bows. But I thought I’d like to see the program. Then David Watson had to open his mouth a say, what a pleasure it was for the youth to have the Genesis bows versus shooting those antiquated Recurves! 👿 There was no need to bash traditional archery just because you want to handicap someone with wheels. 🙄 They even aired one youth stating what a pleasure the Genesis was versus shooting a recurve. Why be skilled at something when teechnology gives you all the shortcuts you need. 😯
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hmm, that is odd, seeing as how the genesis is nothing more than a recurve with wheels!???? Why would he say that, I mean I get trying to push your product, but that is a bit rediculous. That was such a compound shooters statement. I have freinds that say that type of crap to me, “when you gona put down that toy and trade it in for a real bow”!!:evil: I just simply say, “When I am afraid of a challenge!”8)
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Greatreearcher wrote: hmm, that is odd, seeing as how the genesis is nothing more than a recurve with wheels!???? Why would he say that, I mean I get trying to push your product, but that is a bit rediculous. That was such a compound shooters statement. I have freinds that say that type of crap to me, “when you gona put down that toy and trade it in for a real bow”!!:evil: I just simply say, “When I am afraid of a challenge!”8)
Yes, I think it was two things. One – Lack of Knowledge on Watson’s part; and Two – Pushing a product (The Genesis Bow).
I wonder how Mathews Archery feels about bashing Traditional Equipment though? Since they charge such a hefty price for their production longbow.
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I went hunting with my dad when I was a kid. However, he did not teach me about shot placement and being thankful for the harvest so I never experienced that like most of you have. I would go out into the woods, see a deer and start blasting away always missing, (hey I was a kid I didn’t know any better). I bought a longbow 4 years ago and practiced, practiced, practiced. My archery coach loaned me a bunch of How to hunting DVD’s and I watched them over and over. That’s where I learned patience, shot placement and being humble after the kill. In those videos they showed the kill shots which is where I learned shot placement (along with my archery coach) If it hadn’t been for those videos I would have not learned the art of the stalk, shot placement, and in another DVD how to field dress and process the entire deer. As far as hunting for just the excitement of the kill and going for the numbers of kills I don’t really agree with that myself. But I can say those videos helped me a great deal and with the knowledge I am hoping to harvest my first deer using my traditional gear this year. Wish my luck fellas. Hunting season is just weeks away.
Dan
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Wary Buck(and anyone else who read my question wrong), my question was is it right to make money killing animals for public viewing. Please read the posts, all of the posts, carefully before making a judgement as to whom I am refering with my statements. If you don’t you are in essence putting words in my mouth.
Please, someone give me an instance where anything on the outdoor channel was educational without putting in a plug for a product.
And I’m sorry, but I just don’t believe that there aren’t plenty of experienced outdoorsmen everywhere that will share their experience with beginners. My Dad didn’t bowhunt, turkey hunt or bass fish so you know what I did, I found guys that knew how to do these things and asked them for advice. I don’t recall ever being turned down and I see that same spirit alive and well today. But you know what my best teacher was, my own screw ups. My Dad wasn’t around to help me clean my first deer and the guy with me had never klled one. We didn’t go looking for a video, we got out our knives and learned how. On the job training is another word for it. Why does everyone need someone to hold their hand( or watch a video). To borrow a phrase from Nike back in the day “Just Do It”. Here’s a tip for you, turn of the t.v. and get off the couch because the guys and experience that can help you aren’t there. I think the education argument is pretty weak. Do we really want beginners trained by the outdoor channel anyway. Do you guys realize what your saying? Learning woodsmanship by watching t.v…..does that even make sense? I thought the whole point of these outdoor pursuits was the journey and personal experience anyway. I think it’s a sad situation to need the crutch of a video how-to to enjoy your primal lifestyle.
There are awful things done in this world that are justified by the phrase “it’s just business” and I can tell from some of your posts many of you feel that making a living justifies these videos. I say some things shouldn’t be for sale and I’m drawing a line here in my life. I encourage everyone to really think on this subject. It reflects on all of us as hunters.
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[quote=johnny2] Here’s a tip for you, turn of the t.v. and get off the couch because the guys and experience that can help you aren’t there. I think the education argument is pretty weak. Do we really want beginners trained by the outdoor channel anyway. Do you guys realize what your saying? Learning woodsmanship by watching t.v…..does that even make sense? quote]
I hate to break it to you but this is a new generation, people like to learn from tv and the internet. Even the staff(sorry dont know who to give the Trailhead credit to:?)of Traditional Bowhunter magazine realizes this because they created a new forum called the Trailhead(appropriatly named by Mr. Clay Hayes)!! They know that beginners in our speciatly sport may not have anyone around them to ask questions! I was the only traditional bowhunter in my area when I started, there are now several others mainly because I got them into it, but in alot of areas traditional bowhunting is not prominant. So it is easy to look at figures like Fred, or Tred for guidance! Okay mabye not tred, lol, he is kinda wacked!? But there are good figures in the outdoor television industry, even people like Micheal Wadel and Chris Brackett have good morals. And as a young guns we need people to look up to!! -
GTA, you just don’t get it man. Getting away from all the new stuff is what hunting, especially trad hunting, is about. A return to our more primitive roots. It’s about the journey, not the destination. The most satisfying moments come from doing things the hard way(not the Tred Barta way) and doing them on your own. Again, I think as you get older you will understand this.
As for Waddel, you need not look any further than the title of his show, “Bone Collector”. You can’t get much more disrespectful than reducing an animal to the amount of inches on his head to add to your collection. Sad… and perverse.
As I’ve said before, I have no problem with reading about the expertise and experiences of other hunters. It’s just that even any glimmer of education on those videos is lost in the greasy marketing and ego.
Sometimes I wrestle with the reasons I find video hunting so offensive since I really enjoy outdoor literature and would like to write some articles and short stories myself. Are the differences that significant? Am I giving these folks a fair shake? Even trying to justify all they do and looking at other viewpoints what it boils down to is that in my heart and soul I just feel that they are wrong. As I’ve grown older I find that little voice of my conscience is usually right.
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man if you would go to my link, that is my youtube channel! Then you would realize that I know all about the journey, I self film and I know all about hunting the hard way. Yes I introduced a piece of modern technology into my hunting style(my camera) but there is only one thing harder than hunting with a traditional bow, and that is trying to film yourself hunting with that bow. Filmmaking is a journey in itself, it is telling a story through moving pictures, the only difference between film and writing is visual appeal. The fact that some of these guys look like pigs on the television is not because they are filming it, it simply is because they are not meeting our standards of ethical hunting! And lets face it, we all have different standards . . . some are more extremely liberal and others are the opposite.
One final thing to bring up that I dont thing you understand, that is that the people on these shows are not making money off the advertisements unless they are the producers. Like Tim Wells makes money from his advertisements on his show because he produces it. But as far as Eichler, Barta, and Waddel they are doing what the producers are telling them to. Does that make them bad people I dont think so? -
Hi Jonny………I’m home
Debate v Argument
You can’t compare commercial programming and public service TV.
Commercial programming is there to entertain us, you may occasionally be ‘informed’ but it aint goin to happen every day, it’s designed to appeal to a wide audience and generally the lowest common denominator.
Instructional videos are just that sit down pay attention pause rewind learn.
Personally I like a mixed diet.
Having been chastised for making a ‘comment’ about an earlier post I better leave things there.
Mark.
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johnny2 wrote:
Sometimes I wrestle with the reasons I find video hunting so offensive since I really enjoy outdoor literature and would like to write some articles and short stories myself. Are the differences that significant? Am I giving these folks a fair shake? Even trying to justify all they do and looking at other viewpoints what it boils down to is that in my heart and soul I just feel that they are wrong. As I’ve grown older I find that little voice of my conscience is usually right.I often wonder the same thing. I don’t find hunting videos offensive, per se, but I do find most of them rather unfortunate. I used to watch the Outdoor Channel and Versus a lot, and then I switched satellite providers and packages a few months ago and found that I really don’t miss those channels at all.
While I feel there are a lot of good shows and DVD production companies out there (Bowhunter Magazine’s show, Easton’s show, and Denny Sturgis’ DVDs for example), I just don’t care for most of the hunting I see on TV. Perhaps the explosion in the number of shows and videos over the past ten years has lead to a lot of “low-quality” work, or maybe it’s that these days everyone with a weapon and a camera thinks he/she is a videographer. And if that person has internet access, they can put their work out there for everyone to see, good, bad or otherwise.
The way I see the difference between videos and literature is that the enjoying the written word requires creative participation. You can’t crack a book or magazine and turn off your brain. The author can only describe what’s taking place. Readers have to create the visual imagery on their own. It somewhat puts the readers into the hunt, instead of merely watching it on a TV screen. Maybe that’s why I enjoy reading books more than watching television. It puts my creativity into high gear, instead of slamming it into park.
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J.W, that last paragraph sums up a lot for me. You worded it perfectly. To put my personal spin on it, watching the videos seems like a shortcut
GTA, your takin all this way to personal. I’m not attacking filming, I’m attacking the motives behind the filming.
I know a couple of guys that do a show on local t.v. with aspirations of hitting “the bigtime”.I traveled on out of state hunts with them. We were all very good friends. Their motives were questionable before they pursued fame and money so I distanced myself and now only speak to them on chance meetings. I know how this business works and I assure you no one gets in front of the camera without compensation. They ain’t doin it just for fun. And hey, if the producers require them to do something in bad taste or worse, be a man, draw a line, quit, whatever it takes. You are the one responsible for your actions. Yes, they get paid. I believe this is the definition of a sell-out.GTA, I would never make a personal attack on you, but if you are putting your videos out there to promote yourself I would take a couple steps back and look closely at your own motives. I admire your passion and your willingness to state your thoughts but I know how easy it is for a young man to charge ahead without thinking things through. I’ve been there.
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I do know what you are talking about when you say that use young guns take charge without thinking, I do that often but now when it comes to hunting. I actually have my goals written down in a book, and have acomplished alot of them already. My videos are different, very different infact. Modern hunting shows have cameras crews that follow the hunter, mainly because that is what is wanted in the industry. Most of the time they go on big ranch hunts and look for big animals. I put a new spin on it and do it all by myself, because I choose to not because I have no freinds(I get asked that alot?). I want to make films that show the average mans adventure and not only the average mans adventure, but a regular adventure that can become that trophy of a lifetime, without actually being a trophy! Like squirrels, rabbits, whitetails, turkey, bears, and so on. I dont do it to promote myself, althought that could happened in the proccess, but I want to literally change the mindset of the american hunter. That is a big leap of a dream but I think it can happened. With characters like Eichler shooting small animals on tv, it makes my goal become o so much more closer. Can I take trophy game, we will see, but I can assure you that I will do it by means that anyone can reach!
As for what you guys said about books, and magazines. The only reason that you dont have to think is because the person who spent the time behind the computer making that video footage become a story did a great job. If you have to think about what is happening then you should definatly change the channel. Filmmaking is a art, and it takes a artist to create a good quality film. The bottom line is that film/technologie vs. books/written peices is the seperations between generations!?
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