High FOC works

[tombow]

#3231

I have been jumping up and down like a lunatic (yes, I ARE a lunatic…so??) since I harvested my first deer with trad. gear. Many thinks to all who took time to answer my questions here and elsewhere. I built Sitka Spruce (Hildebrand) shafts into 680-690 heads with 4 3″ “shield-ish) fletches, short 3.25” wraps, snap-on nocks and 225 gr. Tuffheads which yielded an FOC of mid-18’s. Due to a deflection, I hit the doe in the facing side shoulder, penetrating the scapula right next to the “ridge” bone, cut the underside of the vertebrae, went through the offside ribcage (Little if any rib-head contact) and only got about 8″ of total penetration. Luckily, the head did enough damage to put the deer down in 100 yards or so. The blades took on some serious damage which I have attempted to correct on the KME knife sharpener, I can get the heads shaving sharp BUT I have to set the KME at 30 degrees to get it to cut the edge of the blade. Any suggestions would be very valuable and appreciated. The head did survive (shaft, not so lucky) the impact and will be used again as long as it is sharp and straight.

The only issue I had is that I bought 80-85 spine shafts, which I used Stu’s calculator to come up with that number, even after Neil Hildebrand said I should get 75’s. The 80-85’s spined out on my homemade tester closer to mid to upper 80’s, I cut them a bit too short for the first 9, but luckily had the last 3 at full length which is what I needed to keep them from being too stiff. Yes, I am dumb but getting less dumb as time goes by! I will be ordering 75 spine shafts soon in the hopes of producing correctly spined buy slightly shorter shafts. I may be too fixated with the shorter shafts but it’s just my personal preference. Besides, the “cut ’em too short” shafts are a bit stiff for my 53# Whip.

Good luck to you all.

TomBow

2 trad kills to date!

[handirifle]

#17958

Personally i am not a big fan of real long arrows either. I like my arrows about an inch longer than what would make contact with my hand at full draw.

I must say I am surprised at only 8″ of penetration.

[David Petersen]

#18788

Tom — you can also try 300 Tuffheads on those shafts to “weaken” the spine, rather than buying new shafts. Thing is, you killed and recovered that deer and with a lesser arrow/broadhead you might well have lost it. All bad hits are unplanned and should be compensated for in equipment choices in advance. Congrats on your venison.

[handirifle]

#18861

David Petersen wrote: Tom — you can also try 300 Tuffheads on those shafts to “weaken” the spine, rather than buying new shafts. Thing is, you killed and recovered that deer and with a lesser arrow/broadhead you might well have lost it. All bad hits are unplanned and should be compensated for in equipment choices in advance. Congrats on your venison.

Very true, that scapula is a big bone to have to smash through, and it did then go 8″. Enough for vinison, obviously.

[tombow]

#58329

Going with a lighter spine seems to me to be a good idea. I will be receiving 70-75 spine, Sitka from Neil at Hildebrands today and hope to start the new arrows this afternoon. That’ll be straightening, wipin’ on some poly, steel wooling, more poly, (repeat), cap-wrapping and turbolating, fletching, affixing heads over the next few days. Then the testing. I hope I am on the right track. Unless the 80-85s were full length, they proved too stiff. Probably is my incredible technique…..:roll: but seriously. CAin’t wait to get them shafts!!!! I love arrow building almost as much as shootin’ ’em. But, DAng, do I LOVE shootin’ ’em.

Have a good weekend.

and they called him “TomBow”

[handirifle]

#59785

Everyone keeps referring to Stu’s calculator. Where might I find this calculator? I have done a search and come up empty.

[Vintage Archer]

#60180

Tombow wrote: I can get the heads shaving sharp BUT I have to set the KME at 30 degrees to get it to cut the edge of the blade. Any suggestions would be very valuable and appreciated.

Tom setting the kme at 30 degrees does not mean that the bevel is not 25 degrees (It iS I guarantee it) difference is in the sharpening device. I have copied a letter from Ron at KME I hope this helps

“Just now I touched up my 6 Tuffheads for the hunt, using my KME knife sharpener. According to the scale on the sharpener it was set at 25 degrees. But in order to get the stone to lie precisely parallel to the bevel on the heads I had to raise it up to one mark below 30 degrees – 28 or 29 I reckon. So is the scale off on the jig, or the bevel in fact greater than 25 degrees, or something else I’m missing here? Just curious. In any event those heads are sharp and one has already drawn blood, my own.”

A quick response from Rom Schwartz at KME explins the details…

“Figured I’d share this drawing to help explain why Dave needs to set the shapener to 29 degrees in order to match a 25 degree bevel.

The angle scales on all clamp-on sharpening systems are relative, not absolute. This is because there are multiple factors that influence the actual sharpening angle.

We can adjust the angle by raising/lowering the bearing guide but the distance the blade extends out in front of the clamp has just as great an influence on the angle too.

This is just basic geometry and there’s no escaping it.

The best way to match an existing bevel is to color the bevel with a permanent marker, eyeball the angle as best as we can, then take just a few strokes with a dry stone to see where the ink is being removed. If the ink is being taken from the shoulder of the bevel but not from the cutting edge, that means the angle is set too low. If we’re removing ink from the cutting edge but not from the shoulder, that means the angle is set too high. Micro adjust till the ink is being removed from the whole bevel and you have found the correct setting for that particular knife or BHD. Note: it’s preferable to have the angle set a bit too high than it is to have it set a bit too low. This way we’re certain that the stone is contacting the actual cutting edge.

Dave when sharpening Grizzly El Grandes with the knife sharpener, I find that I need to set the sharpener at 27 degrees even though I know that the factory bevel is ground at 25 degrees. The angle scale may indicate that I’m sharpening the Grizz at 27 degrees but in fact it’s actually sharpening at the same 25 as my original “factory” grind.

Sorry for the poor quality of the sketch but I think you’ll see what I’m talking about. Thanks, Ron

Ron Swartz

KME Sharpeners

[Vintage Archer]

#60187

Tom if you can not get the damaged TuffHead sharpened to your satisfaction because the blade is damaged return it to me and I will replace it free of charge.

[tombow]

#63979

vintage archer wrote: Tom if you can not get the damaged TuffHead sharpened to your satisfaction because the blade is damaged return it to me and I will replace it free of charge.

I have been working on the damaged Tuffhead. I am certain that the damage came from the deer. I will admit, due to the amount of bone contacted, I am very impressed with these heads, seeing as I just bought another 3. I am also certain that using this head is the reason that I was able to harvest this deer. The heavy arrow and the sharpness of the broadhead put the doe down in short order, which of course is my desire, quick and clean.

I have it fairly sharp but not shaving sharp and may relegate it to being a practice head unless I can do something with it. When I was shooting that “other” bow and shooting 3-blade Montecs on Carbon arrows, I purchased a set of practice heads so I wouldn’t dull the real heads by using them for practice. This was great because, other than blade sharpness, the weight and design was identical between the two (real and practice heads). Perhaps that is something that could be developed for the Tuffhead?? It is nice to have a practice head that you don’t have to worry about re-sharpening, although more sharpening practice is a benefit to me.

I have noticed that I am having a difficult time sharpening the blades evenly using the KME sharpener. Regardless of angle setting on the KME jig, I notice that I can’t get the stone to run smoothly across the entire length of the head. One possible reason may be due to the ferrule being slightly ground by the stone or not allowing correct angle. It seems that I get a good grind about 1/2″ from the tip and less so along the length of the blade, still enough to sharpen the blade but the width of the bevel shows uneven stone contact regardless of how I position the head in the KME’s clamp.

[David Petersen]

#64137

Tom — A few responses to your points, from personal experience. While losing ten grains from a really heavy head doesn’t equate to losing ten grains from a light head, there is a limit to how much we can file a damaged head before it ceases to shoot in syncrony with undamaged, full-weight heads. There is also the risk of filing one side more than the other and losing flight balance. If I had a head damaged sufficiently that I couldn’t hone out the nicks without taking off a lot of metal, I’d take Joe up on his offer to replace it. That sort of guarantee, in my mind, is part of what justifies the high prices of premium broadheads these days.

On your suggestion about practice broadheads, I fear it won’t work for a couple of reason. First, they would be almost as expensive as the real thing. Second, even with sharped cutted edges they would penetrate a lot more than field points, which is hard on targets, and pulling broadheads from targets is the fastest way to destroy foam. In my experience, with well-tuned arrows most well-made two-blade broadheads shoot precisely where field points do.

On the KME sharpener — have you tried repositioning the head in the clamp to get a more uniform contact with the stone? If the stone is contacting the ferrule on a Tuffhead, there is something wrong. I have never had this problem and suggest that you call Ron at KME and let him walk you through possible corrections on the phone. Congrats again on the doe.

[tombow]

#7681

David,

I have taken a look at the stone vs. blade relationship and found that I get the most even contact by having the stone angle set at it’s max. or near max. setting in order to hit the edge of the blade and, thus, sharpen the head. There can be a learning curve and mine is particularly LONG in most cases.

Like all of us here, I want the sharpest and best flying head I can find and the Tuffhead fits the bill to a T. Might just have to take Joe up on his offer. I agree with the practice heads being almost as expensive as the real thing, such is the case with the Montec, when I first started using the Montecs, the practice heads were a few bucks cheaper but I have seen lately that the price is the same. I also see what you mean with pulling broadheads from foam. I have killed multiple ethafoam targets with broadheads. Tough to find a broadhead target of any type that lasts more than a few hundred shots. But the ethafoam seems to be the best option. The multi-layers foam targets quickly become worthless and are a mess when you start cutting up the layers. I am sure there is a large foam to grass ratio in our yard at this time. But the option is to not practice with broadheads, which would be REEEEEE-DICULOUS! Thanks for the reply and advice. I do appreciate being able to benefit from your’s and the experience of others. Been nothing but a sincere pleasure internetting with trad. folks, they are always ready to share info and provide another way of looking at things.

BEst of luck to you and yours,’

TomBow

[Col Mike]

#14823

Dave asked me to pass this on to you all about real FOC.

Some years ago I used to launch 40mm darts about a meter long weighing about 20lbs. from a 120mm tank cannon. These were fin stabilized discarding sabots. Moving at over 1500m/sec- at 3000m they penetrated the front glaces armor plate of a T-72 and exited through the engine–taking all with it and making pyrotechnics in an awesome display. The head was depleted uranium with a ball bearing cone that ensured no ricochet.

Some years later I learned that this round was 40%+ weight forward of center.

So back into trad bows after 42 years and I am shooting 18.33% foc. Should be sufficient for whitetail. Trust me I will be a lot heavier up front next year.

Semper Fi

Mike

[David Coulter]

#14917

Just a note with my one experience with a Tuffhead. I got a pass through in the bottom half of the heart on a small doe at 14-15 yards. The next day I found the arrow right where the doe was walking when I released. The arrow was stuck a full 5 inches into the dirt in the stoney bank. While it would not shave at that point, it only took several strokes on a medium grit stone and a good honing on leather to get it ready for the quiver. There was no heavy bone impact and apparently not solid rock impact either, but the bank where it landed is very stoney.

A couple months ago I filled a cardboard box with magazines and catalogs to make a broadhead target. It works really well and all it cost was some duct tape. dwcphoto

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