Help with instinctive shooting

[daniellaggner]

#6189

I’m a very accurate shot with my recurve. I’ve entered 4 tournaments in my class and won all by many points. I shoot one finger over and use gaps as well as features on my bow to aim. Every time I have a good shot I know the distance. That’s my problem. I’m required to know the distance. The more exact my distance (range finder, given, or estimated) the better my shot.

That’s great at the range, but not in the field.

Recently I shot an arrow over the top of a buck because I didn’t have the time to use my range finder. In the grassy field and fading light, my distance estimate was 16 yards off!

I want to become an instinctive shooter. Or at least better at it.

I’ve tried it, keeping both eyes open, estimating the distance, “feeling” the shot, but my arrows are all over the place.

Does anyone have recommendations for how to practice instinctive shooting? I’ll take any advice.

Thanks all!

[RayB]

#48541

Get your self some judo points and go stump shooting. Walk through the woods and shoot at stumps and any solid object at an unknown distances.

[David Coulter]

#48619

I’m new to this to, but I have to agree. Judos open a great door for learning to shoot. Use one arrow and carry a back up if you need to, but only shoot one arrow, pick it up and find another target. Shoot through holes in the brush, up hills and down hills. Read Asbell’s last book on instinctive shooting. It’s a great help to get the form in line. Then it’s all about practice and more practice. That’s the fun. You’ll get it. Good luck. dwc

[David Petersen]

#48637

Welcome, Daniel. Using a range finder with a stickbow is like taking a sandwich to a banquet. One of the joys of trad archery is there’s so little that can break or get lost. I agree with the guys above re stump shooting. But more precisely, try hard to let go of your gap training and ignore your bow and arrow too, and concentrate on the spot you want to hit, not thinking much at all about range estimation. Only lots of practice can achieve this. But then, trad practice is fun. Best luck, Dave

[Brennan Herr]

#48915

Asbell’s books and DVD really helped me out with my shooting. I had no one to teach me and his information was a great teaching aid. And as Dave said, practice is the key.

[Steve Sr.]

#49085

While many others are better qualified to reply I would like to add food for thought.

You have down the one constant that will make you every bit as good as instinctive shooter as you are target shooter….a consistant anchor. This will prove to be a huge leap forward.

What remains is simply the concentration point.

Myself, I cannnot, and cannot imagine doing so working, look at ANYTHING but the spot the arrow is to go.

The “switch” from looking at your reference points to looking (and a very SMALL part of it!!) only at the target will take a bit but quite doable, especially when the arrows start hitting home for you.

Perhaps?, daily exercises in doing ONLY that will aide you.

Even as a multiple decade instinctive shooter it is common for me to “pick a spot”, concentrate, draw, anchor, concentrate AND hold……..and let up on a target point.

I’ve mentioned “refinding” my anchor point and making it consistant by repetitively doing so with my eyes closed till it becomes “automatic” and found by feel (and is also a great “double check” system I use during season) and this exercise above is another that I find very beneficial.

IMHO, it combines the physical aspects of the shot with a visualization of the arrow flying to the intended target. (Dont forget that part!)

Visualizations of similar activities are widely used and proved very effective in vertually every sport you can mention.

H. Hill was quoted that he repeatedly did so (without bow in hand) on multiple “targets” most of the day, every day. I can’t say that will make you a Hill great shooter but danged if it don’t make sense to me. He also repeatedly “practiced” concentrating on VERY small parts of what he was looking at to make it a faster and a more automatic function.

As for confidence, picture yourself throwing a baseball, football, or shooting hoops and realize what exactly it is you are looking AT………the same prinipal works here.

You do NOT look at the ball but only at the intended area you want the ball to GO.

IMO………you CANNOT look at ANY part of you bow/arrow set up due to it breaking your concentration. Concentration begins BEFORE you draw your bow…eyes locked on target and the shot will (and must) be subconsciously and automatically executed.

It does take practice as the bow and arrow DO appear in front of you. The decision to totally ignore them and retain your concentration on the target does take time and practice (and is more difficult for some than others)…….but just like faith in your abilities to DO so, it will come.

I promise.

You have 80 percent of the “work” successfully completed.

While I am positive all reading this are not going to, it bears repeating. Do not EVER “practice aiming” with a drawn arrow at ANYTHING you do NOT WANT TO SHOOT!!

A freind shot out my sliding glass door aiming through it at a pop can and a buddy shot his wife’s new lamp. 😆

For many, the eyes not only GUIDE the arrow, they also send signals to the brain to RELEASE when “on”.

NEVER EVER POINT A LOADED WEAPON OF ANY KIND OF OBJECT THAT IS NOT OK TO SHOOT!

Welcome! Good Luck and post many photos of your kills.
😀
God Bless
Steve Sr.

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#49135

rayb wrote: Get your self some judo points and go stump shooting. Walk through the woods and shoot at stumps and any solid object at an unknown distances.

I’d second this. Hitting targets at a variety of unknown distances, until calculating distance, angle, etc. start to feel natural, is one of the absolute best things you can do.

[soapbox] As a side note, I’m not a huge fan of using the word “instinctive” as I don’t believe it’s accurate for what we do, regardless of one’s personal approach to shooting. Even purely so-called “instinctive” shooters still calculate before taking a shot (however briefly and maybe subconsciously), are continually refining their technique and they practice a lot. Shooting a trad bow well really isn’t a result of instinct. Though I’m not sure what a better word is – maybe “natural” shooting?[/soapbox]

[Steve Sr.]

#49151

No offense, but this comes up repeatedly on many sites.

The term is relative and while maybe not statistically correct…FEW don’t know what the author is referring to…..so mission accomplished?

As for “so-called” instinctive shooters doing any calculating….it’s not a conscious effort actually “thought about” so therefore I dont feel I’m calculating anything and will take the other side of the fence when someone says that I am.

It’s “in range or not” and different situations will alter the end resulting distance and is not even the same day to day.

I’ve no estimate of range nor make one before any shot at game or anything else, and if I did……..I would, repeat WOULD, miss. A side note on that. MOST my shots are under 18 yards but have taken 4 over 30 and one over 40 yards. All I knew was they were “long shots for me” before shooting.

However, this is all I will say on the subject publicly since it is off topic and not useful information for the thread author.

Just my own soapbox…. 😀

I dont pretend to understand any other shooters methods (nor care) and dont expect anyone not doing the same to understand my own……let alone “tell me how Im doing it”.

I dont estimate range throwing a baseball or football or shooting baskets ……either, nor expect anyone else does.

For the same of discussions……”subconscious” aiming if it suits some better? Regardless of label, it’s the same thing and “instinctive” has been used decades and decades without “issue”.

Sorry, moot point to change it if all understand the subject and willing to bet it was someone NOT doing so that first attacked the term.

If there was some kind of “gain” there…….I missed it. Just another “disagreement” we dont want or need.

God Bless
Steve Sr.

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#49155

Steve – no desire for disagreement, and I’m not hoping to pull this off into a tangent, but I do think this is of some benefit to the beginner – you may reach a point after years and years of practice and refinement where your shooting may feel “instinctive” but no one starts out shooting well as a result of “instinct” – it’s the practice and refinement, over time, that get you there, and even if you think you don’t calculate distance, you most definitely do. Nuff said on that.

Good luck, Daniel. You’re starting on a wonderful path. I’ll add that at some point, it was really beneficial to me to quit being too focused on accuracy and hitting a specific point on the target, and focusing instead on my shooting form – not dropping my bow arm, having a clean release, push-pull, etc. And when I did that? My accuracy measurably improved. Go figure.

[David Petersen]

#49245

Bruce — OK, finally a picture of your elusive self, I presume, rather than your previous altered (sic) ego image. I considered blowing it up for more detail — then thought better of it. 😛 –Handsome Dave

[Steertalker]

#49254

Daniel….why on earth would you want to change what is working for you. If you shoot as well as you say you do….which I believe since you are employing a gap method of shooting…..why go to a less accurate method???? I know that’s going to go over like a turd in a punchbowl. If you’ve got your shot down don’t go back. Keep doing what you’re doing but start learning to estimate range without the use of a rangefinder.

I shoot what most would classify as olympic style…..pull to anchor and hold….aim(gap)….straight up-n-down bow….yada yada yada. I’m accurate out to 50 or so yds and don’t need a rangefinder. Accurate range estimation comes with repetition.

Brett

[daniellaggner]

#49375

Thank you all for your input! This is very valuable information!

I will put my judos to good use with some stump shoots. Also, I think I’ll get the literature that was mentioned.

Brett, you have a very good point that has been brought up to me several times by others: Why change, when it works?
Despite being able to hit bulls eyes at the range, I feel like I’m missing an element of archery that gives it its archetypal and mythical feeling.

In all reality, during my hunts this season, I will utilize my range finder. Eventually, I want to simply lift my bow and shoot without the need for technology though.

Thank you again and please keep the info coming!
Daniel

[Steertalker]

#49413

…….I feel like I’m missing an element of archery that gives it its archetypal and mythical feeling.

Well…to each his own. As far as the mythical feeling I’ve never found shooting a bow correctly and well to be mythical. There is a way to do it right and once you’ve got it don’t let go of it.:wink:

Brett

[daniellaggner]

#50688

I just read the book “on the wild edge of nature”, and realized that the author is part of this thread! Loved the book and it’s a pleasure to share a forum with you Dave!! I’m truly excited about that.

I spent 5 weeks in the Uncompahgre wilderness between Big Blue Creek and Fall Creek Valleys, horse riding and mountaineering this summer. Once the bow season started I stalked a large herd of elk, but I needed your knowledge! 100 yards was the closest one got to me.

Anyhow, Dave, I think your book is great and I see myself living a very similar life as yours as I get a bit older (30yrs now). Those mountains in your backyard are an incredibly special place.

[Clay Hayes]

#50899

sounds to me like you just need to practice range estimation. Not change your shooting/aiming style.

ch

[Steve Sr.]

#51160

Me again….on the other side of the fence….again. 😆

Yep, your current process will work and may work dandy but I am a hard nosed, bull headed advocate of uh……. 😀 ..”no reference point aiming” (aka “instinctive).

For HUNTING purposes, I will soapbox the snot outa it being the VERY best method and well worth the effort to at least try if someone has any interest and is willing to spend the time.

The human mind and body is capable of doing WAY more than the average Joe thinks……..or will let it. One only needs to watch a quarterback hit a runningback at a dead run way down field to have an estimate of capabilities possible and that’s just one poor example.

The mythical part of this great shooting style is more likely referring to the failure of a really good way to EXPLAIN it with context easily grasped for the newbie.

Hand a child a bow and arrow and human nature may immediately having the urchen attempting to “point” the tip at the target and shoot high.

Having “stuff” out in front of our faces lends itself to wanting to use it to shoot/aim. It is quite natural to attempt such and DOES work, but as said, other factors of the shot, like distance come into play in a big way amongst other things.

Hand the same child a ball and watch the accuracy grow with a little time and patience. No visuals needed, this is ALSO quite natural and I, for one, think every normal human being can master it to an adequate level, or better.

The largest challenge (or so it has seemed helping others do so) IS ignoring the bow and arrow in front of your face.

Like it or not, even most non-believers will admit (even if they have to check) that when a person points their finger at something…it is indeed AT the object and they are not looking down their finger. The “skill” is there and as natural to your body as sticking a spoonful of soup in your mouth. (Even that took practice. 😀 )

For a great many, it is the combination of hitting the same anchor point AND concentrating on a spot AND good back tension/form AND release AND follow through, being learned all at the same time that can be a kick in the keister.

For the totally new, we have all seen it in print and heard that “learning the basics” at close range (like 5 yards) will help carve the process into their mind and as their form becomes consistant, shot to shot…THEN the shooter can practice the all important concentration on the target.

The thought process there is to make EACH part of the shot consistant through repetition. Watch any person at work doing tasks requiring repetitive actions and the “newbie” there will be equally impressed the first week or so.

Same principal. CONSISTANT repetition will become “automatic” in time, and unbelievably accurate in ability to duplicate the same motion over and over and over again.

Imagine, if you will, spending 40 hours a week shooting your bow instead of working your job. While extreme, the possibilities there are mind boggling, IMHO.

As in any task, one does EACH step correctly (just as in working) and the speed and consistancy WILL come, in time.

While it may be “easier” to EXPLAIN known distance shooting with whatever reference point used (sights are just one example) I’ll wager that same person can shoot AS well……more quickly (if needed)and without “needing” to know the yardage will become a better hunter……or perhaps I should say that person will have to pass up less shots.

In MY experience, and I ask those here to think back and recall their own, the majority of my shots while hunting were not ones where I had lots of time to think the shot out. It’s either pick a spot and shoot, NOW…..or it will be too late.

Hurrying you say? Not hardly, yet “time is of the essense” for sure. CONSCIOUSLY “calculating” (sorry…..had to say it, lol) anything OR checking your anchor OR looking at the end of your arrow to check whatever will, indeed, make the shot a “no go” situation at best and a poor hit at the other end of the spectrum.

For the record, NO…..I am not a super duper shot, mighta been once but dont shoot enough anymore (gotta fix that, lol) HOWEVER..have a deer trot by me at 10 yards, through brush where I must “pick a hole”, draw, hit my anchor (all while picking a spot), and release (eyes still locked to the hit area) and I WILL show you one very dead deer.

I have found out “the hard way” SOME of my philosophy on hunting is frowned upon, feeling that I am advocating “poor sportsmanship” or whatever mud some feel they must sling, so I will not reenact any shots of times past so I don’t tar our sport with such fruitless discussions but know that YOU CAN learn to SUCCESSFULLY connect on shots that, if THOUGHT OUT, you wouldnt have wagered you could.

Perhaps I am like Odey in the cartoon of Garfield and Odey sitting high up in a tree on a limb.

Garfield has his well known “bubble” over his head and it says:

“It’s amazing what you can do when you’re too stupid to know it’s impossible”

:lol::lol::lol:

I am, however, here to tell you that “instintive shooting” takes second place to no other method in the woods.

For those with a curiousity? Oh yes…..I HAVE (in the distant past) successfully (and MISSED more than I will say. 😯 ) hunted with sights, even a few years with a release and wheel bow……deadly as H out to 55 yards. Believe me, Ive tried just about everything at one point or another in my youth.

I HUNT NOW (and have for some time) with a recurve and longbow, exclusively, and no reference points (just like most of you) because that is what WORKS the BEST for hunting purposes.

The best of all worlds, traditionaly archery and hunting are the MOST FUN………AND……the best of the best out hunting.

Pick the best shooting process for your needs and I will stand behind you 100 percent (but Ill always believe you would be an excellent instinctive hunter!!) 😉

God Bless
Steve Sr.

[skifrk]

#51453

I love Steve Sr’s last post and for me to help with the instinctive part of shooting I have trying to do more of this with a shotgun at the trap range where I focus on the lead spot on the clay and shoot. I think this has helped me with the more not thinking about distance but the spot on the target and following through.

[Jason Wesbrock]

#51642

Daniel,

I agree with Clay. From what you’ve said, your problem is distance estimation. Would you buy a new car because you blow a flat? Or would you fix what’s broken?

Distance estimation is critical to any shooting style. The laws of gravity don’t go on vacation just because you ignore the tip or your arrow. The only difference with regard to the mechanics of distance estimation is that for the instinctive shooter, it is handled in the subconscious. For the rest, it’s more of a conscious decision.

I shot indoor target and field archery for several years as an instinctive shooter and won more than my share of hardware in the process. Ironically, during that time I could shoot mid-400s on a field round and 270s in an indoor round, but would always shoot over or under deer. I assumed it was buck fever or something like that. Picking a spot was never an issue. It wasn’t until I shot my first outdoor 3D round (in which I missed more than I hit) that I figured out my problem.

While I had trained my subconscious to shoot any distance between a few feet to eighty yards (field rounds), I hadn’t trained myself to recognize those distances devoid of yardage markers. If your subconscious can’t recognize the distance to a target (not necessarily put a number on it, but to guide your bow hand to the proper elevation) it’s a case of garbage in garbage out. When I filled that void in my abilities, my success in the hunting woods increased dramatically.

My suggestion to you is one that was told to me probably twenty years ago by a very successful 3D shooter. Since you already have a range finder, spend a lot of time with it. Leave your bow at home and go for routine walks in the woods. Stop at random spots, pick out something, estimate the yardage, and check it with your range finder. It won’t be long before you are able to immediately estimate yardage within your effective hunting range without using a range finder. And I’ll bet at that point filled tags will be the general rule every time you drop the string.

[David Petersen]

#51929

Thanks, Daniel for your kind words. On the Wild Edge happens to be my own favorite book (that is, among the ones I scribbled; certainly not in the big picture)but disappointingly gets bought/read less than most others. Maybe because it’s not a hunting book, not a natural history (that is, about bears, elk, etc.) but a memoir merely including the above. But come to think of it, hunting’s a lot more interesting than my personal take on life. 😆

In the big picture re this thread, just look at how many “lurker” hits this straightforward question about how to become a competent instinctive shooter has already gotten. This interest in that question tells me there are a lot of folks out there thinking about making the trade up. Please, all you folks come on in! Ask your questions unabashedly! There’s a wealth of very experienced folks here who really enjoy helping others learn the special and inimitable joys of trad archery and bowhunting. Wile we may poke fun in general at “training wheels,” etc., we never make fun of an individual and here you’ll never get a snide or dismissive remark from anyone. (When they very rarely do show up, they don’t last long under the watchful eye of our beloved Web Mother.) This is the friendly place. 😀 Dave

[Stephen Graf]

#52307

Dave – I think your wife spiked your nightcap with happy juice. Kumbayah!

I think one small detail is missing. As a relative newby to traditional archery with just 6 seasons of experience, counting this one (I don’t count my 20 some years with compound before that), I can say that however you look at shooting a bare bow, one thing is true. Your ability to shoot accurately with a barebow will increase slowly with time and practice. And your effective range will be much less than it was when using a site or siting methods.

And I hate to bring up that word talent. But I do think each of us is talented in different ways. My wife will tell you I have a talent for being irritating 😳 . I think we must all remain honest about our abilities when shooting at critters. It will reduce frustration and increase happiness to slightly under estimate our talent for making a good shot…

I know a guy that seems to be able to whip his bow up and hit a dot at any yardage out to as far as I can see. I feel like poking him in the eye every time he does it… But I just have to make peace with myself that I can’t do that,… just yet.

The last truth I think we can all agree on is that shooting a barebow is a joy incomparable to a gadget bow. And the joy increases as our conscious dependence on an aiming system decreases.

[Jason Wesbrock]

#52928

Steve,

You bring up some excellent points, especially regarding individual talent. I think that directly related to barebow aiming styles. I’ve never been a proponent of one style over another, having shot pretty much all of them at one point or another throughout the years. One thing I’ve noticed repeatedly is that no one aiming style works well for everyone, and there’s little as unfortunate in shooting as watching someone struggle and become mired in frustration because they felt such-n-such was the only correct way to shoot barebow and they just couldn’t reach a level of proficiency that brought them happiness.

I’m not sure at what point in time the notion that recurves are only supposed to be shot instinctively came about, but I think that idea has probably lead to more frustrated archers than any other notion. Well prior to compounds, instinctive shooting was seen as just one of many viable barebow techniques—one wrench in a box full of tools. But these days, those shooting recurves and longbows are told that instinctive shooting is the only tool they should need, regardless of whether or not it’s appropriate for the individual’s talents.

One of my good friends is an incredible instinctive archer. He’s tried various conscious aiming systems throughout the years, but he always performs at his best when he shoots instinctively. Another friend of mine is the total opposite. When he transitioned into traditional archery, he believed that instinctive shooting was the best way to shoot, and spent years not being able to hit the ground with a quiver full of arrows. Eventually he asked me for advice, and together we completely rebuilt the way he shoots. Within a few months, he went from being someone who lost a lot of arrows at 3D shoots to someone who always places in the top three. I can tell you, he actually enjoys shooting now, as opposed to being mired in self doubt and frustration.

[wahoo]

#53474

all the above . But if your new and want to be better as all of us do go shoot and shoot every day all year that’s what’s fun about trad.

[tecum-tha]

#63763

Gap shooting has the following problems:
You need to know the distance
You need to see the aiming point distinctively and your reference point, whatever it is.
You consciously go around your subconscious memory

Instinctive shooting needs no conscious distance and you don’t need to see the point you want to hit, neither parts of your equipment. You use your subconscious memory. Your problem: The memory is empty. You have to fill it with “trajectory” experience.
Redefining accuracy. There are very few instictive shooters who consistently can shoot at a small spot and hit that spot exactly. But they have kill accuracy, meaning: 1″ off from the spot would have still killed the target.
Here is a training routine that works good:
You start at 5 or 6 yards:
Hang 3 or 4 bunny field targets,shoot one arrow at each.
If you don’t hit within the inner white ring, shoot another arrow at the same target. Then move on to the next, whatever the outcome was and do the same.
Do that until you hit all 3 or 4 in the inner white ring with the first or second arrow repeatetly.
Then go back one yard! and do again! If you’re around 12 yards, then you can broaden your “good zone” to the outer black ring. Same thing, always only move back one yard. Within your training sessions, move back and forth within the distances you already shot.
This routine will fill your sub-conscious memory quite fast with the right memories.
For hunting, shoot in low light conditions at a deer silhouette, because this is what you’ll encounter often in the woods. You don’t need to pick a spot on the silhouette, just shoot where you think the kill is. Do this from different angles and distances to train your brain where to shoot when you can not concentrate on a “mini-spot”, but only see the outline of the deer. You’ll be surprised how good you can kill the deer silhouette even when you can’t see the kill zone anymore….

Bunny target (second link on page:
http://rsengineering.de/How-to/how-to.html

[Author]

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