Heavy or light arrows

[shosier]

#6947

Well, I’m sure to open up a can of worms, but here goes. I’m relatively new to the sport and am now caught up in this carbon/alum light-fast vs heavy-slow debate. After shooting a shotgun for 35 years and after shooting a variety of types of pellets (tungston, lead, steel, bismuth, etc.) nothing beats the old lead. Slow, hits hard and I’ve never knocked down a duck at 45 yds with anything but lead. Too bad you can’t use it much anymore.

So what’s the debate about heavy or fast? Why wouldn’t I shoot the heaviest arrow my recurve can tolerate? Fast and straight means nothing without the knockdown power. Gimme lead over steel (fast and straight) any day. What’s different here?
-Set in my ways but confused…..

[MontanaFord]

#57058

shosier,

In asking this question, you will probably be surprised to find that most traditional archers prefer heavier arrows that travel at a slower speed to something light-weight and a bit faster. Traditional bows are not overly fast to begin with. Compound shooters shoot lighter arrows because they’re infatuated with speed. Sure, when you have 300+ fps, it gives the lighter arrow the kinetic energy to make a pass-through shot. Like you said, even though something heavy moves slower, it hits a lot harder due to the weight behind it. That is where the penetration comes from. Anyway, I’ll let others weigh in on this, but I’m sure most of them will say pretty much the same thing. Heavy is the way to go with traditional gear.

Michael

[David Petersen]

#58378

Here’s a third singer in the heavy-arrow choir. And the more of that weight we can get up front, the better. I see lots of fellers who’ve figured out that speed/energy essentially dissipates on contact with the target and only momentum/weight carries the arrow on through flesh and bone … yet have their heavy arrows tipped with 125 broadheads because they not yet aware of that part of the Ashby formula. In addition to hurting penetration, a light head on a heavy shaft can lead to steering problems and require more fletching. I’ve discovered that the more weight I can pile on up front in relation to overall arrow weight (FoC), the better that arrow shoots. But of course slower with a higher trajectory. But that’s just a matter of practice. And it depends on what size game you’re hunting, shot distance and more. The wheely speedballs shooting 400 grains total weight at 60 yards and 250 fps or faster clearly can usually get away with killing whitetails clean … but this light/fast philosophy leaves our local elk pincussioned with dangling arrows and/or wounded poorly to die slowly unrecovered. That’s more opinion than you asked for and I’d say you already have it figured out, but do look into increasing point weight if you haven’t. Dave

[aeronut]

#58540

I tend to shoot a heavier arrow too. I like a heavier braodhead at least 145 grains and try to get my arrows around 11-12 grains/lb of draw weight. A heavier arrow will have more kinetic energy.

That said, I also hunt with Bamboo and River Cane arows. I still keep at least 145 gr on the front and add what weight I can to the shaft. They come out lighter but I restrict my shots to 15 yds or less with these arrows. I carry both heavy and light shafts when I still hunt.

Dennis

[Jesse Minish]

#58609

I also would pick heavy over lite if I had to choose. I don’t know if this is considered heavy but I usually try to be at least 10 grains per # and I cant remember the last animal I didn’t get a pass through on.

[RAGMAN]

#58637

I like em at least 12grns per pound and heaver. I shoot a bw long bow and I do not plan to shoot past 25 yards. I find the big arrows are more stable, and they knock the heck out of whatever they hit. It is just what I like.

[shosier]

#58665

Well, that kind of answers that question and it didn’t appear to be much in the way of can of worms. I can’t pull too much weight–45 @ 28″ and I pull to 30″ is about all I can manage due to a couple of shoulder surgeries. I’ve been concerned about this FOC issue with broadheads over 125 gr. Trying to stay within “industry” recommendations, but maybe that isn’t what is advised. BTW, I just started shooting 18 months ago and can put 5 in an 8″ ring at 20 yds pretty regularly (on the range that is!) so I plan on hunting whitetails this year. I dont’ ever plan on hunting anything bigger than that.
Thanks for your advice, guys.
Steve

[RAGMAN]

#60041

Oh by the way, I also have a 30″ draw length. I shoot a 43 at 30″ BW longbow. Right now I am shooting some 540grn Beemanmfx. I also shoot some 570 grain wood arrows.I do not like to shoot light arrows. At that long draw length the bow is much quieter, and has less vibration with a heavier arrow. A 30″ power stroke make a tremendous increase in the performance of a bow. I get about the same performance as a shooter with a 28@55lb bow.

[shosier]

#12785

The other issue I wonder about is this FOC. TJ discusses the desired FOC formula in his book and these heavy tip arrows don’t seem to match the formula quite right. How important is FOC to you guys that have been shooting a long time? Does it make a big difference in arrow performance?

[David Petersen]

#13297

FOC: My guess is that if TJ were to revise his book tomorrow, he’d address the FOC issue a little differently in light of the recent and ongoing revelations from Dr. Ashby. So far as industry standards … pooh on all industry bigger than Ma and Pa for traditional! Anyhow, the quick answer in my experience and experiments is to hang as much weight up front as you can shoot well. Increasing head weight doesn’t affect spine as radically as you might think, so the first step is to start experimenting with the shafts you currently have to see what you can get away with. If you’re serious about maxing FOC you’ll likely have to go with stiffer shafts (or cut yours down if you can). Carbon is far more forgiving in the spine department than cedar. My own experiments show that extreme FOC, above 20%, provides more penetration relative to overall arrow weight increase with standard or modestly high FOC (12-19%). That’s shooting into foam, but pretty well agrees with Ashby’s buffalo tests. Watch for an Ashby FOC article upcoming in TBM, maybe next issue I hope. While extra weight increases trajectory, the more weight up front the better the accuracy, up to the “breaking point” of course, which you’ll have to determine for your own setup. It gives the feathers more steerage power because the back end is lighter relative to the front. Hope that helps. But you know, this all could be overkill if you’re hunting whitetails. But then, you can still have high FOC on lighter shafts and gain benefits. For elk and bigger I want at least 650 grains total with at least 20% FOC. For deer etc. I’d feel fine with 500 grains and at least 20% FOC, and in all cases am sold on single-blade broadheads. dave

[Daniel]

#22996

Greetings to all, I shoot a total of 885 grain on my hunting arrows. I have seen what the new Ashby broadhead can do combined with the Safari arrow, it simply blown me away !!!!

Great site !

[Chris Shelton]

#24336

I think the ultimate awnser is a small diameter carbon arrow that weights 11 grains an inch? If that doesnt get some reactions nothing will!!! But that is what I shoot and what Fred Eichler shoots and it works for us!!

[heydeerman]

#26222

I shoot carbon and stay above 10 grains. My heads weigh better than 250 grains. Never had a problem with penetration except the spine.

[MontanaFord]

#26896

Dave,

When you talk about 20%, what exactly is that percentage derived from? I’m not entirely certain I understand where it’s coming from. Please explain if you could please…or somebody or anybody. Thanks.

Michael

[Steve Sr.]

#27143

Here is a link for the FOC calculations from Dr. Ashby.

https://www.tradbow.com/members/222.cfm

A simple explanation is, a 20 percent FOC is a balance point of a completed arrow that is 20 percent of it’s length forward of the arrow’s measured center.

I keep my arrow lengths pretty constant so I know that 20 percent is 5.7 inches (28.5 inch arrow) forward of half way.

I often take a light marker and just mark that spot on the shaft when I want to check a couple different head combinations to see if the balance point is at least that much instead of measuring each time.

It should be interesting to see the different combinations used by everyone this fall taking game.

[MontanaFord]

#27309

Steve,

Thanks for the reply. I think I get it now. I’ll have to see where my arrows are coming in at. I use the same arrows for field shooting as I do for hunting, except that I switch from 145 gr. field tips to (currently) 150 gr. Wensels. Anyway, thanks again.

Michael

[Ed Ashby]

#28752

If I can ever get through all these medical problems and get back to the REALLY IMPORTANT stuff (like entering all the 2008 test data onto the computer) I’ll be able to see what all the data from the 2008 buffalo testing has to say, but I can already tell you that some testing with some heavy, penetration maximized arrows and a 40#@27″ recurve gave some pretty eye-popping results on buffalo … and those ribs are definitely “heavy bone”!

Ed

[Jason Wesbrock]

#29031

shosier wrote: The other issue I wonder about is this FOC. TJ discusses the desired FOC formula in his book and these heavy tip arrows don’t seem to match the formula quite right. How important is FOC to you guys that have been shooting a long time? Does it make a big difference in arrow performance?

Up until a few months ago, I hadn’t measured FOC on one of my arrows in close to 20 years. I was discussing moose hunting with someone and they asked about the specs of the arrow I shot through my bull. Since these were of the same basic arrow configuration I’d been using since 2001, I became curious and did some calculations. If memory serves, they weigh within a few grains of 500 (about 9gpp on my normal hunting bows), and with 20-grain Flightmate adapters and 125-grain heads, their FOC is somewhere around 12%.

To answer your original question: FOC is not of much importance to me. But if I were to hunt something larger and tougher than elk or moose, I may rethink that opinion.

[Guru]

#30062

I like to keep my arrows between 9-10gpp…and usually at least 250 grains of that is on the end…I have no idea what my foc is…but I like this weight for good speed and trajectory………

[tinybowhunter]

#42951

I am shooting cedar shafts out of my 45# bear montana. Finished arrows weigh 475 grains, thats just over 10.5 gpi. They have an foc of 13% with 135 gr. zwickeys. I’ve never had the opportunity for anything larger than whitetails, but I am very pleased with the results so far!

[Author]

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