FOC, Tieing the threads together

[Troy Breeding]

#7190

It’s been suggested that I tie all the FOC threads I started together for later reference.

So here I go. Not all the threads are mine, but the ones I added to this thread are ones that I feel need to be tied in as well.

I’ve looked back and hopefully havn’t missed anything. If I did please let me know and I will edit them in.

I’ll give the title of the thread and a link to it.

Back in June:

“How much is too much EFOC”

https://www.tradbow.com/members/cfmbb/messages.cfm?threadid=8BC64BE7-1422-1DE9-EDA995079F105288

Then in August:

“Building that EFOC & UEFOC arrow”

https://www.tradbow.com/members/cfmbb/messages.cfm?threadid=CFEBA837-1422-1DE9-ED80F25322975EE2

“Point of deminishing return while tuning”

https://www.tradbow.com/members/cfmbb/messages.cfm?threadid=8710870A-1422-1DE9-ED1E96665680694E

“Ultra EFOC results in Bufalo Arrow”

https://www.tradbow.com/members/cfmbb/messages.cfm?threadid=8BE0CC29-1422-1DE9-ED0668BFE821C856

In September:

“Encouraged and discouraged while tuning”

https://www.tradbow.com/members/cfmbb/messages.cfm?threadid=45659468-1422-1DE9-ED848FC3E88D16E2

“Today discouraged at first, encouraged later”

https://www.tradbow.com/members/cfmbb/messages.cfm?threadid=4F9396A6-1422-1DE9-EDAF9326B8089BE6

“Now I’m totally encouraged along with the good, bad, and ugly”

https://www.tradbow.com/members/cfmbb/messages.cfm?threadid=5F1EA2D1-1422-1DE9-ED58C42987EC63B0

“Bareshafting Pics”

https://www.tradbow.com/members/cfmbb/messages.cfm?threadid=6E8C0AC8-1422-1DE9-ED9402BDA68C4E14

“Newest problem while tuning”

https://www.tradbow.com/members/cfmbb/messages.cfm?threadid=93509D72-1422-1DE9-EDA80D977592E6B0

In Oct.:

“I think more point weight will help”

https://www.tradbow.com/members/cfmbb/messages.cfm?threadid=5728ECF6-1422-1DE9-ED9FDA593C9FDF98

Now in to the month of Jan. 2012:

“Maybe, just maybe”

https://www.tradbow.com/members/cfmbb/messages.cfm?threadid=9FBD5283-1422-1DE9-EDFC70D9E9256921

“You can hangup the straight jacket”

https://www.tradbow.com/members/cfmbb/messages.cfm?threadid=B0F0B246-1422-1DE9-ED3E7C7672E9EB83

On to Feb. 2012:

“EFOC Bows”

https://www.tradbow.com/members/cfmbb/messages.cfm?threadid=7E70879A-1422-1DE9-ED348D2EAD824A91

“Fronkinsteen” flies, she flies”

https://www.tradbow.com/members/cfmbb/messages.cfm?threadid=82BCA52F-1422-1DE9-ED7A414F5E9C0794

“Feathers!!!! what feathers???”

https://www.tradbow.com/members/cfmbb/messages.cfm?threadid=8CEF2218-1422-1DE9-ED9091068EB49702

The next thread started back in Sept. of 2011, but carries on to this date.

“A long look at fletching and EFOC”

https://www.tradbow.com/members/cfmbb/messages.cfm?threadid=C8EA4FBD-1422-1DE9-ED1A1C909376B7B6

“King Kong is coming”

https://www.tradbow.com/members/cfmbb/messages.cfm?threadid=A674913A-1422-1DE9-ED7135352338B4EF

“New Bad Boy in Town”

https://www.tradbow.com/members/cfmbb/messages.cfm?threadid=046D2AAB-1422-1DE9-ED9CDF92295868C0

Like I said before, if you notice a thread that you feel should be linked in to this one let me know and I can edit it in.

Troy

[Ed Ashby]

#59194

[Ralph]

#59274

Good deal!!!

[Troy Breeding]

#59310

Hahahahahahaha!!!! I knew the comics would start on this one…:D

Troy

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#59391

Whoa – all this radical, subversive information in one place?!?

Remember, remember, the 5th of November…

[kingwouldbe]

#59478

Great job Troy, I think there is a boatload of usable information contained here.

[David Petersen]

#59505

Add my kudos, please. But I’m worried about Doc Ed … while some of us age and revert to a second childhood, from Ed’s posts here lately it seems he’s reverted, devolved as it were, all the way back to his Big Animal deep ancestry. 😛

[David Coulter]

#59547

Troy,

Thanks for the compilation. Maybe the Tradmin can permanently post it at the top with Links to the Ashby reports. Keep it handy for learners like me!

Thanks, dwcphoto

[David Petersen]

#59582

Good point, David. I will clarify that proposal here for our beloved Webmother’s return (she’s traveling this week, methinks, and I don’t know all the Magic Switcheroo tricks and too lazy have lost too many brain cell to learn): Can we add Troy’s excellent compilation of FOC etc. links to the Ashby Library, por favor? All those great cartoons and photo-toons are worth saving for posterity! Certainly it could be a “sticky” on this forum, handier, but I’m thinking it should be right there with all the other good stuff. Of course it’s all liberal tree-hugger socialism anyhow, right? I mean, who in their right mind would put so much thought and effort and concern into wanting to consistently kill animals as fast and humanely as possible, thereby reducing–the goal is eliminating–wounded and lost animals while enhancing hunter ethics within and hunter image beyond, while increasing our bring-home-the-meat aka “success” ratio? Better to just keep doing things like we always have, else we might fall off the edge of the flat earth. IMHO, natch 😈

[David Coulter]

#59628

Glory be, I didn’t mean to suggest it as religion to be posted at the top! I suppose I’m just a commie, socialist, tree hugging, stump shooter. It’s all good. I just finished my last can of communion for the evening. I’m getting some sleep. May the EFOC be with you… dwcphoto

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#59646

dwcphoto wrote:

May the EFOC be with you…

Ha! 😀

[Troy Breeding]

#59658

David Petersen wrote: Good point, David. I will clarify that proposal here for our beloved Webmother’s return (she’s traveling this week, methinks, and I don’t know all the Magic Switcheroo tricks and too lazy have lost too many brain cell to learn): Can we add Troy’s excellent compilation of FOC etc. links to the Ashby Library, por favor? All those great cartoons and photo-toons are worth saving for posterity! Certainly it could be a “sticky” on this forum, handier, but I’m thinking it should be right there with all the other good stuff. Of course it’s all liberal tree-hugger socialism anyhow, right? I mean, who in their right mind would put so much thought and effort and concern into wanting to consistently kill animals as fast and humanely as possible, thereby reducing–the goal is eliminating–wounded and lost animals while enhancing hunter ethics within and hunter image beyond, while increasing our bring-home-the-meat aka “success” ratio? Better to just keep doing things like we always have, else we might fall off the edge of the flat earth. IMHO, natch 😈

What tha!!!:shock: dang!!!:? I’m gonna have to read this three more time just to understand what the heck he said.:D

Troy

[sharpster]

#60154

Muchas gracias Senior Breeding!!!!

I’m way behind on all aspects of building the super-set up… from the very first step of selecting the correct shaft and spine, to bare shaft tuning for EFOC, and right through all the fine points of tweeking the various componants. Thanks for putting this all in one place. Hey I think there could well be a book deal in this for you! 😉

Ron

[David Petersen]

#60207

Troy, never mind — it’s over your head. :P:lol:

In fact I was eating ice cream at the time and it makes me dizzy …

[Robin Conrads]

#60274

This thread is now “sticky” and will stay at the top of the Friends of FOC Forum. You can add to it if/when necessary. I will also try to find a way to link it in the Ashby Library outside of the forum, but that will be a little later.

Carry on!

Webmother Robin 😀

[David Coulter]

#9190

Robin,

Thanks for putting this at the top for easy reference. Much appreciated! Best wishes, dwcphoto

[Robin Conrads]

#9354

You’re welcome David. Troy did all the work, I just made a technical assist. 😀

[tg2nd]

#63672

Glad I found this and the guys here!:D

[jpcarlson]

#31510

Troy or Ed,

I have been reading up on the threads on FOC, love it! I think i am starting to understand where I need to go with things to get there. In a nutshell if i’m not mistaken, we are trying to take the lightest strong spined shaft and stick as much weight up front with the smallest A&A fletching plus turbulator and thrown in some good bare shaft tuning before we end up with our custome lawn darts. right?:) I still don’t know which is a really good, affordable carbon shaft to start out with? Do you have any sugestions? One that will take a good brass insert+weight?

also, i don’t remember what the formula was for calculating FOC.

Ed was talking about tuning bare shafts but leaving them still hiting around 1 1/2 inches right (i’m a righty) before fletching? That didn’t make sense to me.

Any help would be appreciated!!

Jans

[Troy Breeding]

#35048

jpcarlson wrote: Troy or Ed,

I have been reading up on the threads on FOC, love it! I think i am starting to understand where I need to go with things to get there. In a nutshell if i’m not mistaken, we are trying to take the lightest strong spined shaft and stick as much weight up front with the smallest A&A fletching plus turbulator and thrown in some good bare shaft tuning before we end up with our custome lawn darts. right?:) I still don’t know which is a really good, affordable carbon shaft to start out with? Do you have any sugestions? One that will take a good brass insert+weight?

also, i don’t remember what the formula was for calculating FOC.

Ed was talking about tuning bare shafts but leaving them still hiting around 1 1/2 inches right (i’m a righty) before fletching? That didn’t make sense to me.

Any help would be appreciated!!

Jans

LOL!!!

Jans,

That sort of what we are talking about.

First decide what weight point/broadhead you want to use. Then, decide what shaft type you want to use. Normally we are talking carbon, so here type means brand of shaft. I mainly used Victory shafts in my testing since they are the lightest GPI I have been able to find.

Next you bareshaft and bareshaft some more until you have your shafts flying straight and clean. I know Ed says leave them hitting slightly right, but for me I want them hitting exactly where I’m looking.

Once you have that part worked out you can fletch a shaft and see how it flies. If it flies clean you then change the fieldpoint to a broadhead of the same weight. If it flies clean you can then start reducing the length of the fletching. With proper tuning you will be suprised at how little of fletching it takes to carry a broadhead.

Troy

[David Coulter]

#35170

Jans,

Just a suggestion. I’m using Beman ICS Bowhunter 400s with my 46 # longbow. They are one of the least expensive shafts out there and I’ve had good luck with them. I followed Troy’s advice and bugged a lot of info out of him and my arrows fly pretty well.

My bowyer, Leon Stewart, suggested I try some Carbon Express Whitetails. I shot a couple of his in my bow and they flew like lasers. They were not even tuned to my bow. The upside was obvious to me, but the downside is they a a little pricey. I have some little feet to put shoes on, so I’ll stick with the ICS for now… dwc

[jpcarlson]

#37253

Hey guys

I decided to try the Easton Axix Nano shaft in a 340. Very strong carbon shaft with a good spine and a 75 gr brass insert. The nice thing about these little lightning rods is how strong they are. I figure with the amount of weight I am going to put up front, the strength might be a good thing:)

Troy,

I was thinking of ways that would allow you/others to keep pushing the envelope of UEFOC. I have a machinist friend who may be able to work up some small diameter pieces of tungsten steel, or just plain steel. If he could tap one or both ends, it may provide a nice chunk of weight just behind the broadhead and allow the adaptor to screw into it. The possibilities are endless aren’t they!

jans

[jpcarlson]

#37255

Maybe a tungsten steel adaptor and/or insert would help too? I can’t think of anything strong enough with the weight that would machine better. Tungsten would be a pain, but indestructable!

[Troy Breeding]

#38105

jpcarlson wrote: Hey guys

I decided to try the Easton Axix Nano shaft in a 340. Very strong carbon shaft with a good spine and a 75 gr brass insert. The nice thing about these little lightning rods is how strong they are. I figure with the amount of weight I am going to put up front, the strength might be a good thing:)

Troy,

I was thinking of ways that would allow you/others to keep pushing the envelope of UEFOC. I have a machinist friend who may be able to work up some small diameter pieces of tungsten steel, or just plain steel. If he could tap one or both ends, it may provide a nice chunk of weight just behind the broadhead and allow the adaptor to screw into it. The possibilities are endless aren’t they!

jans

Jans,

If you read all the threads you will see that while playing around trying to break that magic 40% I used woodie weights. These glue in between the adpt. and the fieldpoint/broadhead.

Wether the weight be between the adot and point or between the insert and adpt. really makes no different.

As long as the weight is in front of the insert the FOC reading will be higher than equal amounts of weight added behind the insert.

Troy

[David Petersen]

#58924

Troy, while Woody Weights are great for adding weight up front and perhaps the only way to get EFOC with wood shafts, my limited testing taught me not to trust them as metal-to-metal glue links are relatively weak and adding more length and weight to the tip is in itself a weakening function; that is, a 3″ long piece of metal will be weaker on impact with an angled blow than will one half that length, even without the glue joint. I’m not at all to doubt the excellent and important work you’re doing on extending FOC to the logical max, I have to wonder if it doesn’t erode a major Ashby element to the bottom line of what we all want, which is a mechanically reliable arrow system that holds together under any possible impact situation, namely angled shots into heavy bone. Only way I’d personally trust a WW for hunting would be to braze the metal pieces together … or maybe JB Weld; I haven’t tried that. Personally I’ll take 20% FOC and an indestructible arrow-head system over double that for an even slightly weaker setup. Wonder what the good Dr. has to say on this point?

[Troy Breeding]

#59948

David,

I totally agree with the point of using WW’s together without a much superior system of bonding them together than epoxy. Brazing would be the way to do this with best results.

I will have to point out that with properly jointed sections the WW’s will still be stronger than the wood shaft they are attached to.

Troy

[Ed Ashby]

#60031

What I would say, Dave, is, “Structural Integrity of the entire arrow system is THE most important factor in terminal arrow performance. When structural integrity fails nothing else about your arrow’s design matters.”

Ed

[Kees]

#168392

Bumping this back to the top.

[richard roop]

#168395

Much food for thought, and admittedly I have not read every bit of this but something did catch my eye; the part about cutting back on fletching on arrows with broadheads.

I would strongly suggest doing that with small careful steps. I’ve flight tested my broadheads upwind, down wind, cross wind both ways and once thru a dust devil. My shield cut 5 1/2″ x 3/4″ helical fletching is possibly overkill but I know without a doubt that they’re going to perform even if I pluck my release a bit.

One more thing that I seldom see mentioned is flight testing broadheads at distance.  A friend & I were once doing some pre-season roving with practice broadheads. All was well at reasonable distances.  The sitting jackrabbit out about 100 yards was too good to pass up so we lobbed a couple. My friend’s arrow flew fine for about 50 yards and then took a hard right for no apparent reason. Follow-up shots did the same. An indication that something wasn’t as ‘right’ as it could be.  Switching from straight fletch to helical solved the problem.

[Author]

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