FOC question

[bowman221]

#7334

Hey guys, I just bought easton 400 fmj shafts, and I was wondering do I need to go out and spend the money on brass inserts or would the arrow weight alone be enough? Also I heard not sure if I am correct but Fred Eichler does not use FOC. Sorry just a big fan :D. Anyways thanks for your time Justin

[Troy Breeding]

#60703

FMJ’s are heavy GPI shafts and will need the brass inserts if you plan to get any major numbers in FOC.

I’ve talked with Fred about his arrows at the ATA show. I feel he will pick up on it one day. For now he still as too many irons in the wheelie bow industry to break away from their way of thinking.

Troy

[bowman221]

#60734

Yeah I understand that, but he is getting consistent pass threw’s. Even on a shiras moose he punched threw the bone and hit the vitals. Im not trying to say that his way is the only way it just seems to work is all.

[Troy Breeding]

#60742

The last I heard Fred had increased his overall arrow weight. Add that to a 30″ draw and he will have some punch power.

He may not shoot that heavy of bow weight, but heavy arrow and long draw will do wonders for penetration.:D

Troy

[bowman221]

#60748

That is true, I was just wondering if having more FOC than the 16 grain insert and a point is necessary if you have 10.2 grains per inch on a 29 inch arrow.

[ray montoya]

#60756

Eastom fmjs are all i shoot…been shooting them for over four years now. I shoot the 400’s out of my 57# Bob Lees and Morrisons with no high foc…12% foc with great results on elk and mule deer

[bowman221]

#60757

Ray is that just with the normal insert or did you stick brass into that?

[ray montoya]

#60800

its with the normal 16 grain insert. i got the 400’s to shoot from my widow, but the bob lee loved them so much thats all i shoot from it now, and the morrison really loves em

[bowman221]

#60807

Nice, what grain are these arrows tipped with. I am gonna be having the same poundage bow, I know to tune them and everything, just want a starting range.

[ray montoya]

#60808

i shoot 100 grain tips, now 100 grain sharpshooters from wasp. my bob lees and morrisons are cut 1/4″ past center instead of the standard 3/16″ past center, so i use a stiffer shaft…

[Jason Wesbrock]

#60826

Troy Breeding wrote: The last I heard Fred had increased his overall arrow weight. Add that to a 30″ draw and he will have some punch power.

He may not shoot that heavy of bow weight, but heavy arrow and long draw will do wonders for penetration.:D

Troy

I know he increased his arrow weight for his recent buffalo hunt, but haven’t heard where he made any changes for his normal hunting. On Traditional Harvests IV he mentioned that for his polar bear hunt he went to a stiffer shaft (.340) and replaced the normal 15-grain inserts he uses for 100-grain brass ones, giving him an arrow weight of 540 grains. That would actually put his normal arrow weight a touch under 500 grains, which sounds about right for a 54# @ 30.5″ Palmer shooting 188 fps. Mark Land recently posted on another site that Fred gets close to 200 fps out of his new recurve that’s also 54# at his draw length, so I don’t think his day to day arrows are even 500 grains total.

Whatever he uses, it sure works well for him.

[Jason Wesbrock]

#60833

Ray Montoya wrote: i shoot 100 grain tips, now 100 grain sharpshooters from wasp. my bob lees and morrisons are cut 1/4″ past center instead of the standard 3/16″ past center, so i use a stiffer shaft…

How do you like those heads? They look a lot like the newer NAP Razorbacks that were out a few years ago.

[ray montoya]

#60845

wasp has been making those heads for several years now. my dad shot them out of his 48# bob lee a few years ago with great results. i like them a lot, shot two bulls with them this past fall and a big whitetail in ohio with them. they fly great and are a tough lil head. i gave uo my contract with muzzy after 15 years to shot the wasp heads.

[Jason Wesbrock]

#60849

Ray,

Sounds great. I have to admit I had to Google them to see what they look like. For some reason, I don’t see Wasp heads at the shops around here. They look like a nice design, and tougher than the Razorbacks.

[Ed Ashby]

#60856

Bowman, both arrow weight and EFOC are penetration enhancing factors. Each offers its own contribution to arrow penetration, and each also complements the other. In other words, from a given bow, when all else is equal in arrow design a heavier arrow penetrates better than a light weight arrow. When two arrows have equal design features, and are of equal weight, but differ in the degree of FOC, with one having normal or high FOC and the other having EFOC, the one with the EFOC will show better penetration into tissues. When it comes to the degree of effect on penetration, EFOC has a greater effect than does arrow weight. It is, however, important to maintain an arrow mass of at least 650 grains (the Heavy Bone Threshold).

What all that means is that a lighter weight arrow (but still above the Heavy Bone Threshold) having EFOC or UEFOC will show as much tissue penetration as a significantly heavier arrow having normal or high FOC, but when considering arrows of equal FOC (regardless of the degree of FOC) the heavier arrow penetrates tissues better.

If you would like to read more about the relationship between EFOC, arrow weight and penetration you can read through the later 2008 updates. Here are links to directly related Updates:

https://www.tradbow.com/members/2008_Study_Update_Part_3.cfm

https://www.tradbow.com/members/2008_Study_Update_Part_4.cfm

https://www.tradbow.com/members/2008_Study_Update_Part_5.cfm

https://www.tradbow.com/members/2008_Study_Update_Part_6.cfm

Ed

[ray montoya]

#60895

wasp is under a new owner and new management, a great bunch of guys that are making a great broadhead. i shot wasp out of my recurves and compounds with great accuracy and penetration. my nm bull was shot at 37 yards with a fmj and penetration was over 26″…my colorado bull was shot at 6 steps and penetration was complete…with a 57# recurve. love those fmj’s

[sapcut]

#60952

Bowman,

If your arrow doesn’t weaken too much, a TuffHead 225 broadhead will do wonders for the “big three” regarding your arrow……increase FOC, increase arrow weight and increase penetration.

[ray montoya]

#61295

if i was needing to increase point weight, then i would add the 100 grain brass inserts, wo weaken a stiff shaft, then i could use whatever 100 or 125 grain head i wanted. but if he needed a weaker spine, then why not start out with the right shaft to start with? match the arrpw to the animals you hunt, tune for perfect arrow flight, and have fun playing and experimenting. what works for one guy aint going to work for the next guy. but regardless of what you do, you did pick the best shaft on the market to start witn

[Troy Breeding]

#61499

The MA of most 100 to 125gr heads is much less than that of a heavier single bevel heads..

Thats why most of us need the heavier spine. Simply increasing the end weight of an arrow doesn’t help near as much as increasing the MA of the broadhead and FOC of the arrow together.

Troy

[Ed Ashby]

#61511

Just to reinforce what Troy said, your bow – any bow – is capable of imparting only a set amount of force to your arrow. Think of it the same as the gas in your car’s tank; how much ‘work’ you can do with that fuel – in this case how far you can drive – depends on the efficiency with which that fuel is used. It’s the same with your arrow; the more efficiently it uses the bow’s force the more ‘work’ it can do with whatever force the bow can give it.

Each of the penetration enhancing factors increases arrow efficiency; they conserve the arrow’s force. The Mechanical Advantage of the broadhead determines the final application of that force. The higher the broadhead’s MA the more efficiently whatever force the arrow retains at impact is applied to penetration.

Ed

[ray montoya]

#62743

Changing the foc of an arrow doesnt matter if you do it with a heavier insert or a heavier head. Although the heavier insert will allow you to fine tune a shaft, cause you can cut a brass insert to obtain certain weights that you need to find the perfect spine for your bow. Can you cut weight off a 200 grain broadhead to make it way 175 grains? Or do you need to buy new broadheads?

I’m not here to argue efoc, or heavy arrows. The guy didnt ask abut efoc, just asked if his FMJ’s were ok without adding heavy inserts. I’ve argued with OL about this before, built arrows to experiment with according to his specs, and I’m still happy with my 489 grain arrows for everything I hunt. People have been building heavy arrows for buffalo long before the efoc thing, with great results, using stand Zwickey broadheads. So, like I said, dont argue the efoc or single edge broadheads with me. Thank you…

[Ireland]

#62749

Sapcut wrote: Bowman,

If your arrow doesn’t weaken too much, a TuffHead 225 broadhead will do wonders for the “big three” regarding your arrow……increase FOC, increase arrow weight and increase penetration.

Sapcut is correct…Check out the Tuffhead 225. Best broadhead on the market!!!!

Ireland

[Troy Breeding]

#62812

Ray Montoya wrote: Changing the foc of an arrow doesnt matter if you do it with a heavier insert or a heavier head. Although the heavier insert will allow you to fine tune a shaft, cause you can cut a brass insert to obtain certain weights that you need to find the perfect spine for your bow. Can you cut weight off a 200 grain broadhead to make it way 175 grains? Or do you need to buy new broadheads?

I’m not here to argue efoc, or heavy arrows. The guy didnt ask abut efoc, just asked if his FMJ’s were ok without adding heavy inserts. I’ve argued with OL about this before, built arrows to experiment with according to his specs, and I’m still happy with my 489 grain arrows for everything I hunt. People have been building heavy arrows for buffalo long before the efoc thing, with great results, using stand Zwickey broadheads. So, like I said, dont argue the efoc or single edge broadheads with me. Thank you…

Chill Ray,:?

Incase you don’t know it, this is a no argue site.:evil: No one is trying to argue one way is better than the other. We are just pointing out what makes arrows different and how they proform different with different setups.

Troy

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