Ethics and hunting public land

[purehunter]

#6776

Ladies and Gentlemen,
I can’t resist giving my opinion on this issue. I would like to throw this out there for your consideration. I know there is some disgruntlement on the use of ATV’s during hunting season. I own and use an ATV for scouting and hunting. I try to use good judgment and ethics when doing so. I stay to the existing roads and pay my OHV fees to the states I hunt in. I have hunted California, Nevada, Wyoming and Colorado this way. I backpack hunt also and the vehicle stays at the trailhead or drop off point.

I understand the annoyance of ATV’s/motorized traffic while trying to hunt public land. To me, it’s no more annoying than hiking several hours and several thousand feet only to find you have been beat to the “secret honey hole” by hunters on horseback. I’m more envious than angry since they have a nice wall tent, stove, real food and a beast to haul their game out for them. Depressing, you bet. Do they belong there, yes. It is public land and they are following the rules.

What is beyond annoying is unethical, even criminal behavior exhibited by other hunters/guides. I have had several friends who have suffered vandalism, harassment and threats of violence while out hunting by other hunters! I guess when there are those that are willing to pay $150k for a tag and $1,000 a day for “scouting and tracking” a trophy animal all year long, then the criminal element will kick in. The above mentioned incidents were on public land and were reported. There are outfits that consider the public land and trophy animals “theirs” as they are getting huge money for them. Some only stop just shy of committing homicide, but who knows? In both cases, my friends chose NOT to force the confrontation and just walk away.

I believe it all boils down to ethics, whether you use an ATV, gun, aircraft or a sharp stick with a stone point. It’s not the ATV, long range rifle, recurve, longbow or self longbow that is unethical. It’s the behavior of the person. If roads close, I will walk farther, as I have in Wyoming. Closed roads make excellent trails to walk on. I support quality game management and human management.

In short, as long as you are ethical and follow the spirit of hunting, you are welcome to share my camp. Same as in life.

Thank you for your time,

Purehunter

[Ralph]

#54919

Well put in my opinion. Thank you.

[Bloodless]

#54929

Purehunter — I honor your post because you stick to the topic, rather than atttempting to call names, etc. Wish we could all do that, always. However, I fear you have succumbed to the common logical temptation called a “non sequitur,” or literally “it does not follow.” What does having a camp robbed have to do with ATV abuse and overuse?

Too many people on too many ATVs allowed to go too many places are killing hunting! You say you stick to roads … no motorized trails? I won’t go any farther with this because I wish to be as polite as you were in your post. Let’s just leave it that your view from your ATV is radically different from my view on foot. How did our public “wildlands” ever become legitimized as a motorized play park? You ride in a way you feel is ethical and I respect that, since so very many do not. Yet, it’s not just abuse, but overuse that’s killing us. Close parallel with human overpopulation.

Your 2 cents, my 2 cents. Thank you …

[purehunter]

#54979

Bloodless,
Thanks for your respectful response. I agree with you that there are too many roads open to motorized traffic. I know in Wyoming, they have closed areas to motorized vehicles but the roads are still there. They make great paths to hike on until the time comes to go cross country. I’m all for that to keep the habitat in good condition AND increase the quality hunting experience. But just using an ATV doesn’t make you “bad”. Unethical/criminal behavior does and can be very destructive to this sport/lifestyle.

I guess my point was……while ATV/OHV overuse is an important issue, the issue of ethical behavior is more important to ME. Motorized traffic is one thing, committing crimes against your fellow hunters is another. If states want to close areas to motorized traffic, I would support it 100%. People who break one law will more than likely break others.

I live in California and the states I have lived in and hunted don’t have too many “motorized trails”. They are more or less logging roads, mining roads, and Forest Service roads. I’m not sure I’ve been on a road that wasn’t open to Jeeps, trucks, etc. So I may not be educated as to what issues are occurring in your neck of the woods.

There is no need to call names. I hunt hard, sometimes smart, and show respect for the game, other hunters and the land. To me, WHAT you legally use for transportation is not as important as what you DO.

Respectfully,

Purehunter

[rayborbon]

#55041

Honestly in our neck of the country it seems that people on loud mountain bikes bugling create more problems than the few ORV riders. However when the ORV riders are found it’s usually behind a gate they are not supposed to be behind and they usually have that attitude to go with it. I stopped getting too emotional when the game wardens proved they could not or would not enforce the regulations we have and pursue trespassers.

The people who ride their mountain bikes out on the forest roads in August and September create a ton of noise and move the elk around and get them nervous. I wouldn’t blame mountain bikes for that. I ride mountain bikes a lot but rarely when hunting.

I don’t really have anything against motorized vehicles and understand it’s the person behind the vehicle who is making the decision on when, where and how to travel on that thing. Having said that it is annoying to walk in and see that someone else decided they were not going to play by the rules. Some people vandalize in retaliation. I abstain from that. It’s illegal and it’s just not my thing.

[bates777]

#55682

Surfice it to say there are more and more killers and less and less hunters every year. Here in Arizona somtimes the best hunting spots are a half mile from a major road hidden in plain sight is what the Deer and Elk have figered out. The draw back is you don’t get the quite of the back country. Pay to Play is the name of the game. Soon maybe we will have bow bearers (Gun Bearers) of yoor.:lol:

[David Petersen]

#55684

Good points all around. I’m basically with Bloodless, who must also be a westerner who hunts public lands. Regarding Ray’s comment that mountain bikes disturb and move elk … you bet they do! There is scientific evidence to prove it. At the Starkey Elk Research Center in OR, elk were satellite collared and monitored over a long period under controlled circumstances for reactions to approaching ATVs, bicycles, hikers and horse riders. Not surprisingly elk consistently fled sooner, faster and farther from ATVs, and took longer to settle back down. Second in level of disturbance were mountain bikes. While horses and hikers were very close in lowest disturbance levels, surprisingly elk consistently were more disturbed by hikers than horseback riders. This research is ongoing and increasingly verifies what many of us see for ourselves in how public land hunting has changed over the past several years: elk hate ATVs and go somewhere else when the ATVs arrive in numbers. Dirt bikes, motorcycles are even worse. It comes down to a simple choice: we can have better hunting across more areas and walk in to get there, or we can have more easy motorized access all over the place at the cost of quantity and quality of hunting. I agree with a senior award-winning CO game warden who says in public that “If we don’t control the ATV invasion soon, it will be the end of hunting as we know it.” Visible changes started long ago, leaving me and countless others in the awkward situation of having to walk in farther every year, even as I get older and it becomes harder. One hunter’s right to swing his fist ends just short of the next hunter’s nose. Certainly, like most problems with hunting and hunters today, motors are not nearly so big a thing among trad bowhunters. My 2 cents, dave

[Larry O. Fischer]

#56106

I cannot say if ATVs cause all the problems, but will say most of the problems have an ATV connection. Recently here in Idaho we went from unlimited antelope tags over the counter to an unlimited draw last year to a two week limited draw season, and a two week unlimited draw season with two weeks in the middle being lost. This came about do to conflicts over waterholes. It seems a few have decided that having multiple blinds on water holes eliminated the competition. Thus they would build plywood boxes then keep everyone out while they controlled the area. The ATVs played a part in this because 1# nobody could pack all that wood in on his back, 2# they patrolled the area on their ATVs watching for hunters who might be hunting their spots. These actions lead the Fish and Game to curtailing our seasons. This all played out on Public Land so everyone lost!
If everyone had to walk in then no one would our could have controlled more than one waterhole per season. Portable blinds would be the norm and our public lands a lot cleaner!!!

[rayborbon]

#56205

That is very interesting and not surprising but should be an awakening for people. The hunting industries really try to sell all kinds of gadgets including the ATV. I bet some of those people don’t even realize their impact on the game or the seasons. It’s frustrating to say the least. One thing which I have been fairly reserved about is the game cameras too. I believe it gives too much of an edge to hunters who cannot challenge the game by learning their behaviors, traveling routes and habits the old fashioned way. With time in the woods. People set up their cameras and just wait for some pictures to show up. Once they do they can decide to put a food plot and hunt that spot with a tree stand. I am not angry that people do this but I believe a lot of hunters who participate in that do not understand that it also will set a tone for future generations and with the edge and higher success rates always comes shorter seasons. They are not bad people and maybe if they do understand but they feel justified. I respectully choose to disagree..

[Mark Turton]

#56573

In hunting as in so many things in life we throw technology at it to make life easier, ATV’s, trail-cams, compound bows, telescopic sights these and a hundred other things make life easier because we no longer have to do it the hard way or learn the basics.

Perhaps the greatest legacy Traditional Bowhunting can have is teaching and practicing the basics, how to set a camp, scouting, tracking, woodcraft, butchering, meat preservation and respect for the nature and people we meet in it. Without them those that come after us will have to rediscover these things or rely on technology.

It’s not what we know it’s what we share that makes a difference.

Gone a bit off topic but that’s where the earlier posts have taken me, Mark.

[Hubertus]

#8351

Unfortunately, an attitude of respect is not something that can be legislated or enforced. I think we can all agree that too many have run amok in our wild places (US & Canada) without respect for the land (public or private) or those they share it with (human or animal). And while it is possible to use an ATV respectfully (which, as mentioned already, includes NOT using it sometimes), those who simply want to shred soil & make noise will gravitate towards any device that makes it easier to do so.

[WICanner]

#18666

Not meant to stir up an old pot, but thought to post here, rather than start a new thread.

I posted this opinion some years back on another site, and was practically kicked off. So I became a ‘lurker’ rather than a poster. So if I offend, my apologies in advance.

I think the topic at the time concerned ATV use, and ethics on public land. The thread migrated to ATV use in wilderness areas, and other closed off areas of national forests and BLM land. While I understand the various justifications for ATV use, usage in off limits areas burns me bad. My suggestion for a penalty as a compromise to the offending ATV user and lesson for the ATV owner was to allow them to pack them out, piece by piece. The offending rider would be issued a packboard and a tool kit. For an 800 pound ATV, it should be about 10 to 12 loads. You pack only part of it out, you get the bill from a packer with horses for the rest, and a big ticket. The engine gets packed last. Then it gets confiscated. So, you pack it all out, you get to keep it, but get a smaller ticket. You decide to not pack it out at all, the governmental authority supervising confiscates it on the spot, and you get an even bigger ticket, and loose your license, etc. Your choice. Sounds harsh, but I bet it would curtail the use of ATVs where they are not suppose to be. It would give the offenders practice in packing. If they could pack out an 800 pound ATV, then they could pack out an 800 pound elk. They’ll also soon realize that they could have spent that time hunting, and packing out that elk rather than messing with an ATV.

The other posters at the time, thought I was nuts. Flamed me mercilessly, so I figured I was in the wrong forum and have been a lurker for years. Not that I think that will happen here, but wanted to throw a different light on this. This maybe a somewhat humorous view, but I bet it would work.

[Bloodless]

#19016

WIcanner — I seem to be following you through these various threads and keep saying “yes!” to what you are saying. I see by your few posts that you are new here. Brother, this is the place for guys like you and me and so many others I could name. I predict you won’t get no chaff here from anyone who disagrees. And if anyone disagrees they will make a respectful argument for their views while respecting your views. That’s why so many of us love this website4 — because it doesn’t allow stupid rude insulting people, and the monitors, or moderators or whatever, are just like the rest of us and don’t toss us off if we disagree. Welcome and keep posting! bloodless

[epenfold]

#19192

I have spent alot fo time in the last ten years volunteering for the forest service both on the ground and in the political ring. This time has brought some understanding that people on this forum may not agree with but this is what I have learned.

The forest service is bound by laws that allows recreation of all types on the land(mixed use), with limits imposed on cetian areas like wilderness. The unfortunate part of these laws is that most of these groups don’s see eye to eye. The generalization is that foot travel(hikers, snow shoers, cross contry skiers, etc) and hunter don’t like motorized travel(jeep, atv, dirt bike, sand rail, etc), the motorized community views the hiking and hunting groups as the bunch that wants to take away all of thier fun, and the equine enthuist seem to be some where in the middle.

The really unfortunate part of all of this is that while a trail head may be shared by foot, hunter, and equine enthuist very rarely do you see any of them give the other more than a hello and thats only if they meet on the trail and one has to give to the other.

Back to the topic of ethics, My hunt last year was interputed by an atv rider that wanted to watch the sunset from the top of the hill and I was about 1.5 mile away from any road or trail. How do you contend with ethics of a non hunter? I saw a photographer in the unit that I hunted that did not agree with killing animals. That photographer called the dow and reported a paocher only to be disapointed when the dow told him that my license was legal and no wrong had been done.

While I agree that the ethics of certain hunters may be on a downward slope what about the mixed use regulations should the non hunting foot travel be banned, the motorized community. What kind of an up roar would this bring?

While I unterstand the frustration, and yes nothing happened to the atv even though I had the tag number off the bike, How does a nation of such diversity find a happy medium when there are people who believe all weapons should be banned including archery equipment?

[MontanaFord]

#21810

Having grown up in Montana, I’ve done a lot of what’s been discussed. 4-wheelers, horses, hiking, snowshoeing, x-country skiing, snow catting, dirt biking…when I was younger, the 4 wheelers and snow cats were fun, sure. As I get older, I find myself more disdainful of them, and believe me, I’m a young pup compared to a large number of the folks on here (Friday I turn 29 for the first time…lol). I understand that there are a lot of roads and trails where “noisy earth-shredders” are legal and allowed. That’s fine. I’d appreciate it if they would stay there. Many will, a large number won’t. I hiked one trail that is open to dirt bikes and 4 wheelers last year, and there’s one ridge that connects a lower section of road to an upper section. What had some of the motorized crowd tried to do? Make a shortcut, even though they could probably drive the loop around faster than I could hike the ridgeline between the two points. They failed, of course, because there’s a section that is too steep for a 4 wheeler or dirt bike to navigate, but I’m sure somebody at some point will start making a trail that at least goes DOWN, though I wouldn’t want to endo something that weighs between 400 and 800 pounds. That’s gonna hurt. We have an area here that encompasses a large area of high-mountain basins known as the Jewel Basin Hiking Area. No horses, no mountain bikes, no dirt bikes or 4 wheelers. There’s over 30 miles of hiking trails in the Basin, and honestly, it’s nice to be able to go up and hike up there without running into noisy machines or have to dodge out of the way of a mountain biker that doesn’t know he has a slow gear. I don’t have a problem with horses, because I grew up with grandparents that outfitted in the back country. I’m jealous when I run into horses 3 or 4 miles back from my truck, because I think, “Man, what I’d give to have a horse to pack something out.” LOL. Sure would be nice, but whichever. I’ll walk. And pack. Is there a solution to the guys that can’t play fair or legally? Probably not, because everything is a competition anymore. Who can get there the fastest, who can get the biggest buck or bull. You get my drift. There’s no way to stop something without stopping something else without stopping something else…etc, etc. And then what do you have? A bunch of renegades that just decide they don’t care. It comes down to the old saying, “If I can’t have it, neither can they.” Which is stupid, but seems to be the general attitude anymore. Just my buck and a half of pennies. LOL

Michael.

Oh, and I like the idea of making guys pack their ATV/dirt bike out piece by piece on a pack frame. Just make it an old wooden forest service issue pack frame, not one of Cabela’s Alaskan frames. LOL.

[WICanner]

#21993

I agree with you that where they are allowed, they can drive them. It’s their right to drive them on forest roads, etc. It is a multi-use environment. In some instances, and I hate to say it, it’s better than travel via pickup truck. I’ve seen pickups get stuck in narrow places in the forest on forest roads, where getting in via ATV with a small trailer would have been a smarter option. But use in prohibited areas and wilderness areas is straight out bad news. They should not be allowed to drive it back out, and do more damage. There are places out west were you can still see the ruts of the Oregon Trail from over 150 years ago. The land out there doesn’t heal itself from man made disturbances, and people should respect that. So, even though it sounds impractical, making them pack it out from prohibited area, especially a wilderness area, would probably work to discourage this behavior. And I bet they wouldn’t do it a second time, and neither would their buddies.

[tom-wisconsin]

#22478

Ideally we can all live together when we follow the rules or the laws. It is a shame that some people can not respect the rights of others. Thank goodness we can do this on this site.

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