Epoxy and glue

[Ptaylor]

#2904

So I’ve always used hot melt glue to attach points, broadheads, and inserts. But I’ve heard people talk about using epoxy. I have a couple questions for you folks. Is there a method to remove an insert/broadhead from an arrow shaft if you glued it in with epoxy? Where I’m going is, I’d like to epoxy the BH/insert into my hunting arrow shafts to be sure of the strongest adhesion, but does that mean once the shaft breaks I cannot reuse the BH/insert? Any of you folks that have epoxied your hunting arrows get multiple shots at animals before the shaft breaks?

[Doc Nock]

#14210

Back when we actually HAD deer where I hunt, I’d shot more than one deer with the same arrow, with the gore washed off the feathers, then steamed back into shape… but in another year, usually.

As for the epoxy, I’ve heard many, many stories on that. What I know is limited compared to the more expert among us, but here’s what I learned:

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You can use 5min epoxy and glue in brass inserts, then heat back up by heating ONLY the field point screwed in and pulling as soon as the epoxy softens.

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In the early days, with the paranoia about heating carbon, I kept a glass of water next to me and dipped the shaft as soon as I removed the insert to cool the shaft…. then I used an old highly tapered savora replacable blade to clean out the residue inside the shaft and sanded any old residue off the insert and reused it.

I later stopped the water dip. Shafts lasted as hunting arrows, then became practice and 3D arrows and lasted for years without damage after heating JUST the field point!

I had some 2 part epoxy that I could NOT get back out… but the dual tube 5min always worked.

I’m sure you’ll get other replies and experiences…that’s just my own!

[Stephen Graf]

#16374

Ptaylor wrote: So I’ve always used hot melt glue to attach points, broadheads, and inserts. But I’ve heard people talk about using epoxy. I have a couple questions for you folks. Is there a method to remove an insert/broadhead from an arrow shaft if you glued it in with epoxy? Where I’m going is, I’d like to epoxy the BH/insert into my hunting arrow shafts to be sure of the strongest adhesion, but does that mean once the shaft breaks I cannot reuse the BH/insert? Any of you folks that have epoxied your hunting arrows get multiple shots at animals before the shaft breaks?

I’m confused about your last sentence. I don’t see a connection between how the insert is glued in and the shaft breaking? Unless you are talking about heating the shaft up?

I have used a bunch of different adhesives. Some worked some didn’t. Here’s the highlights of the good ones I used:

The very best epoxy I ever used for glueing in inserts is the stuff the golf pro shops sell for gluing in golf heads. In addition to being designed for gluing stuff into carbon tubes, the epoxy has ceramic microspheres in the glue which aid in alignment and strength. It comes in a “ketchup packet” that has just the right amount to do a dozen shafts. Rip it open, mix it up.

I’ve used Bohning’s insert Iron. It’s a good glue too, but the bottle goes bad after you open it, so it’s a waste. Won’t use it again.

I’ve used Gorilla Tough Super Glue and it works really well. No complaints.

What I am using now is the Bohning hot melt designed for inserts. Just using it this season so far, but it seems to be really good stuff. In addition to how well it bonds, what I like is how easy it is to use, and how fast. You are ready to shoot in just a few minutes.

Regardless of the adhesive you are going to use, a good bond requires a clean and rough surface. I wrap some 60 grit sand paper around a small screw driver and scrape the inside of the shaft. Then I use a Q-tip and some alcohol to clean it out.

I got suckered into the expensive tools in 3Rivers for roughing up the shaft. Sandpaper works just as good, maybe better.

OH, and I second what Doc says about getting the insets out after glueing in with epoxy. It works on everything but the machinable epoxies like JB weld. They have too high a melting point.

[Doc Nock]

#16482

Steve,

I am not the poster, so “ass-u-me” is dangerous, but I took it to mean that he was curious if he epoxied in his inserts, and the shaft broke, is it a loss or can you get the inserts out… ??? at the cost of brass inserts, a question I had myself at one time…

I’ve used the 5 min as said and it comes out no problem heating just a field tip..then pull.

As for rouging, I worked at a local shop and they had a hot pot that we plugged in when we opened and it had bohning hot melt in it all day. We’d cut shafts to length, tap out the dirt, heat the insert with a pair of pliars in a torch, then dip in hot melt pot and insert, wipe off excess and hand them to the customer… many paid, then came back to the range and shot into that miserable horizontal masonite… and only 3 ever reported “pull outs” in the 2 yrs I worked there.

I now clean with q-tip with alcohol and pretty much leave it at that… Just lucky I guess!

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#16530

I can’t say that I’ve found a need for epoxy when it comes to inserts, as there are a number of other good options that are much easier to deal with when you want to remove/switch out the inserts. Epoxy has always felt like overkill, in my experience.

In addition to those options mentioned above, I’ve been using Gold Tip glue for years and I’m very happy with the results. I’ve also used Bohning hot melt for carbons with good results.

Like Steve said, properly prepping the shaft makes a big difference with adhesion. I use a .22 bore brush inside the shaft, and then an alcohol swab to clean out the grit before gluing. I rarely ever have an insert come out, unless it’s taken a really hard hit on something it shouldn’t have.

For removal, I’m a fan of the ‘drill bit’ technique.

[Ptaylor]

#16533

Great stuff fellas. Exactly as Doc Nock said, I would like to be able to re-use an insert/broadhead if the shafts breaks from the animal falling on or running past trees or through brush.

It sounds like some of the epoxies can be heated and removed just like hot melt glue, except the JB weld…?

I’m not sure if this is right, but while reading the Ashby reports, I got the impression that epoxy formed a stronger bond than the hot melt glues. Is that wrong?

[Doc Nock]

#16575

I got the impression that epoxy formed a stronger bond than the hot melt glues. Is that wrong?

I believe that it forms a “different type” bond. I “believe” (no proof) that the rubbery hot melt types stay quite flexible and take impacts decent. Troy B helped me thru using aluminum shaft over footing and highly recommended the long cure epoxy for them… His reasoning being that you want that overfooting to stay TIGHT on the shaft and not budge to do it’s job…

I bought into that and used it for that purpose, but still stubbornly use the hot melt for inserts and even the head inserts be they alum or steel.

Back in my wood days, I had more points pull off in varied mediums than I have had since using hot melt…

Smithy, what is the “drill bit” technique? I just heat the field tip, and keep pressure on till it releases, then out quickly and let the shaft cool…then clean out. Curious what the “drill bit” technique of removal is!??

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#16595

Doc Nock wrote:

Smithy, what is the “drill bit” technique? I just heat the field tip, and keep pressure on till it releases, then out quickly and let the shaft cool…then clean out. Curious what the “drill bit” technique of removal is!??

For adhesives that will loosen when you warm them up, it really isn’t necessary, but for glues like Gold Tip, Goat Tuff, etc. it’s very useful (for carbons):

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Remove the nock, and get the largest diameter drill bit that will fit inside the shaft.

Put your hand over the nock end of the arrow, and raise the shaft up, so that the drill bit slides back toward the arse end.

Now forcefully sweep the arrow toward the ground, so that the drill bit slides the length of the shaft, and slams into the insert. You may have to repeat it a few times.

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Easy and effective. I’ve salvaged many inserts from broken shafts this way (and vice versa), that I couldn’t remove otherwise.

[Doc Nock]

#16603

Ahhh… rather a “Smith’s hammer” approach! lOL….I’ve heard of using the centrifugal force with something inside the shaft… didn’t realize it would break loose a bond that heat would not!

I got epox once at the archery shop that was 2 part, and it would NOT BUDGE… I ended up trashing those arrows. Who knew! also threw out that glue!

Great Tip, SH! Thanks for clarifying!

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#16686

Doc Nock wrote:

Great Tip, SH! Thanks for clarifying!

You betcha, Doc. I’ve learned lots of good things on this forum over the years, and sharing tips is one of the things that makes it such a great place. 😉

[Dennis Sundborg]

#17827

I guess I’m living in a bubble because I still shoot aluminum shafts and feel hot melt is the only thing for gluing in inserts. I also glue my broadhead adaptors into my broadheads with hotmelt so I can heat them up (candle flame heat only) to insure they are properly aligned. Hotmelt also gives me the ability to insure all my broadheads are identical in alignment when sitting on my rest at full draw so as not to change the sight picture. I do this by heating up the insert equipped aluminum shaft and rotating the broadhead until each shaft is the same.

[Ralph]

#19034

Good points:wink: Ontario. I shoot wood mostly, aluminum secondarily and I’m still experimenting with carbons.

I have always used hot melt for installing inserts. With the carbons I epoxied my first two sets of inserts in because I was learning. I liked the arrows and had some screw in broadheads to try and said to me, “Doo doo, whoops. Epoxy no is bueno for that, can’t align my broadheads” and wondered if others do when their inserts are epoxied in. Like you I always align mine the same, easy with hot melt and with epoxied inserts that ain’t gonna work.

I remedied the situation by buying some broadhead adapters and using some glue on broadheads and saved the screw-ins for my aluminum shafts.

The broadhead adapters did give me a bit more weight on the front, turned my 125 gr. broadheads into 147 gr. which was fine. You can buy those in different weights also, the adapters.

[kirkll]

#60371

I love the hot melt glue, but not all hot melt glue is created equally. i personally use a 3M product that i used professionally with cabinet and countertop installations. This stuff is incredibly strong… The only thing i’ve found wrong with it is when the weather is cold it does become more brittle and going stumping with hot melt glue will result in a lot of lost tips or loose inserts…..

If a guy was going to build stump shooting arrows i’d recommend epoxy…. Good epoxy like the golf shops use, or bow builders smooth on works well too.

another trick to getting inserts out of a shaft that have been epoxied in is putting them in your freezer before using the drill bit method. the stuff gets brittle with cold. Heat doesn’t work so well on high grade epoxy’s. 5 minute epoxy is low grade stuff, but still works ok on arrows.

[David Petersen]

#61297

Kirkil, you can buy all-temp hotmelt archery glue that doesn’t go brittle in deep cold. In my experience, with all shaft materials, more important to a reliable bond than the type of glue is absolute cleanliness of all contact surfaces (acetone is best and rub alcohol also works). If they’re oily, no glue will be reliable.

[David Coulter]

#61477

I started out with standard craft grade hot glue and found it was not real reliable. I bought a stick of darker yellowish stuff from Braveheart and that stuff works great. It’s easy to use and it holds really well, even in freezing weather. Perhaps you guys way up north would have a new meaning of cold than I’m used to, but it works great for me.

As was recommended by Dave, cleanliness is the key. thanks, dwc

[James Harvey]

#61665

To break an epoxy bond between a head and an insert, one chap suggested I hold the ferrule against an electric hotplate. That worked but wasn’t very fast.

My next stop was my workshop. I put my soldering iron on something pretty low (I forget exactly) and held a large tip against the ferrule. Very quickly the epoxy bond broke and we could move on with our lives.

[Ptaylor]

#62140

Along this line, I once was trying to melt the glue to pull and insert out of a carbon arrow. The glue hadn’t melted enough when I start to twist the insert, and I unwrapped the carbon shaft! It came out in twisting fibers! Guess I had the flame of the torch too close to the shaft.

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